(http://www.fogbound.net/tmp/panel/IMG_1441s.jpg)
Make sure you insurance company, puts a rider on any solar installs.
It would be a shame for them to escape coverage of a complete loss of a residence bc, of the solar.
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?s=1673dfe798cea19ce331e0bfac009d2a&t=4524 (http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?s=1673dfe798cea19ce331e0bfac009d2a&t=4524)
Lloyd
Ouch indeed...
...although having read the whole thread, one does wonder if the "installer" was actually the home owner, using the cheapest panels he could find, and what looks like some old Meccano to lash it to his roof...
Personally, I'm not sold on the whole PV thing: They're expensive, have short lifespans, and are not particularly efficient. When - not if - I move to sunnier climes, I plan to have a solar hot water system, which is much safer IMHO, and more efficient, even if it does provide a lower grade of energy.
ADE,
I'm pretty much in your camp.
Also, when I look at the picture, another thing doesn't add up. I was on a couple of Volunteer FD's, and been to a few dozen fires. I don't see any sign that a fire hose was directed at those solar panels.
From everything I read a full system, to take care of modest needs of a typical house of three people, takes in excess of 25 years to amortize. Most people on average stay in their home for less then 10 years. Everyone say O the house will have a greater re-sell value...that is debatable. The technology change just 10 years from now will most likely make it obsolete, it may even lower value, bc of the cost to demo and bring in new technology. This statement is based on hired job, not diy.
I'm more inclined to use them as battery toppers.
Lloyd
This was a pretty outrageous case of fraud- bogus panels with plastic covers, bogus cell intra-connects, with a bogus mount that had the panels visually bowing under their own weight. We'd have to assume that the rest of the electrical system was similarly done.
I have to wonder about mounting panels on roofs...it's a lot of roof penetrations to leak, and any future roof repairs involve removing all the panels. If all done by contractors, not on the cheap, would the net gain ever balance the ongoing costs? It's certainly a good deal for system sellers, installers, and roofers.
If Dr. Sam Milham is correct,
lqms.net/Documents/LQMSCancerv94-18-07.ppt
then high frequency content on you home AC wiring (all around you in every room, unshielded Romex) is especially bad, health-wise, for stay at home small children and mothers. At present, there is no regulation of EMI from these grid feeding inverters. I would guess that the AC wiring would be "screaming" on an AM radio in these homes when the sun is shining. I know of one situation where a neighbors grid tie system is grossly affecting power quality in all the 3 other homes which share the same transformer. (4 output Wye with ground ties).
This leads to more questions, not answers. A fire hose directed at the panels certainly would have scoured the roof. I don't see any sign of even a water debris trail running below the panels, just some melted plastic'
Hmmmm
(http://www.fogbound.net/tmp/panel/house%20on%20fire.jpg)
Hmmm, dates the pics uploaded, are a year a part between the panels and the fire trucks??
[DIR] Parent Directory -
[IMG] DSC_2689.jpg 10-Feb-2009 21:03 121K
[IMG] DSC_2696.jpg 10-Feb-2009 21:03 125K
[IMG] DSC_2699.jpg 10-Feb-2009 21:03 85K
[IMG] DSC_2701.jpg 10-Feb-2009 21:03 72K
[IMG] IMG_1392s.jpg 11-Feb-2009 00:21 38K
[IMG] IMG_1441s.jpg 11-Feb-2009 00:08 115K
[IMG] house fire out.jpg 03-Feb-2010 10:19 136K
[IMG] house on fire.jpg 03-Feb-2010 10:19 137K
Also it appears that at least 3 different cameras were involve in the photo shoot.
Hi Bruce,
Did they locate the source of the dirt power? I assume the school was all grid? What's your take on the source, seeing as how it was only certain rooms within the school?
What about switching power supplys, and florescent light ballast, I know when I worked in the commercial office arena, I always turned off my overhead flos and used incandescent task lights that I brought in. The flos always seemed to make me sleepy.
Lloyd
Margaret Thatcher: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
Be sure to unearth the hidden cost of solar panels, when making any financial decisions.
Lloyd
http://www.insuranceagents.com/solar-panel-insurance.html (http://www.insuranceagents.com/solar-panel-insurance.html)
Home Solar Panels Coverage
Just know that your local climate will probably be the biggest indicator for how much your homeowners insurance premium when you add home solar panels to your policy. Areas prone to very severe weather are more likely to have a higher rate of home solar panel claims. However, shopping online for homeowners insurance quotes may help you find the coverage you need without raising your premium costs much.
If you want to fully insure your home solar panels, be sure to discuss with your homeowners insurance agent the risks they think you need to prepare against. Here are just a few tips:
http://www.vcstar.com/news/2009/mar/14/simi-solar-panel-fire-raises-safety-issue/ (http://www.vcstar.com/news/2009/mar/14/simi-solar-panel-fire-raises-safety-issue/)
"We don't have a history of fires," said Sue Kateley, executive director of the Sacramento-based California Solar Energy Industries Association. "On the other hand, the number of systems being installed now is more than the number we've had in the past. Odds are, we're going to see some issues."
Including the Simi Valley fire, there have been four incidences of fires in California linked to solar panels, Kateley said. One was caused by a homeowner-installed panel, she noted.
'It does happen'
http://www.bakersfield.com/news/local/x1442645194/Crime-shorts-Arcing-power-line-caused-Target-solar-panel-fire (http://www.bakersfield.com/news/local/x1442645194/Crime-shorts-Arcing-power-line-caused-Target-solar-panel-fire)
Sunday April 5th 2009 at approximately 4:15 P.M., a call was received by the Kern County Fire Department for a commercial structure fire at Target on Rosedale Highway in Bakersfield. Approximately 22 Kern County and Bakersfield City Firefighters responded to the incident.
Upon arrival, fire crews were faced with a large column of thick black smoke coming from the roof area of Target. The crew made an immediate contact with the store's manager to determine if all of the employees and customers had evacuated the building. Crews then entered the building and made a systematic search to confirm that employees and customers had evacuated.
A ladder truck was set up and crews found that a row of solar panels on the roof had caught fire. Due to these panels still being energized with electricity, crews took precautions until they could be de-energized. After de-energizing the panels, crews found that some of the roof insulation had also caught fire. A small amount of water was then used while crews peeled back this affected area. Upon further investigation crews found that one of four pieces of conduit containing electrical supply lines, for a group of panels, had arced from an unknown electrical problem.
The cause is still under investigation.
-- Kern County Fire Department
Geez, Lloyd, you're really on a roll. I usually feel paranoid when I answer even one of my own posts. People might think I'm talking to myself, and maybe a little touched in the head, you understand. But I figure so long as I don't talk to myself using different names and voices, I'm probably OK. ;)
Quinn
Having been a homeowner with solar PV panels (4.5KW array) and a modern FCC cert "B" Grid Tie Inverter, except for washing them off 2 or 3 times a year, they are "invisible". Coupled with a decent tie-in arrangement with the electric company, my $35K investment provided me with a $5 monthly electric bill vs the previous $130 bill.
I prepared my 15 year old roof with a re-shingle job, and had the roofer install the PV mounts. Leaks solved!
I can assume I'll need an inverter replacement in 15 years, that's another $5K, so $40,000 / 125 /12= about a 26 year break even, if utility fees don't go up. And I asumed the rates would go up, giving me a shorter payback. Panels have a 25 year warrenty, and after the first few years, when weak panels are prone to die, 30 years life @ 80% power is reasonable.
And my retirement off grid, is based on a new install, 3KW array, with a 6/1 metro as backup for cloudy days.
So don't all be so quick to diss PV.
Quinn,
I find it acceptable to talk with ones self...I just worry when I start answering myself back.
And since PV are high on my research to do list right now...I like to share ...this gives me a chance. If my channel bores someone then they don't have to listen, worst case I'm asked to leave the building.
Lloyd
http://www.firehouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105422 (http://www.firehouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105422)
Dangers of Solar Panels
The thing to know with solar panels is they cannot be shut down, they are ALWAYS ENERGIZED. And they are energized with up to 600 volts of DC current. For example, you cannot put an ax through them to open up a roof to vent - your putting the ax through 600 volts. If fire is infringing upon solar panels on the roof it will compromise the integrity of the panels. You then have 600 volts of live electrical energy - and what don't you do when you have live electrical energy - you don't put water on it. Even if the roof burned through and the panels fell into the structure, unless the panels were destroyed (de-energized) by the fire and/or falling into the structure, they can still have the potential to be live. They have to be treated as such and have the potential of 600 volts of DC current.
The question asked which really put things in prospective - someone asked that since California is number one when it comes to Solar Panel System installations, "...what do their Firefighters do when a structure fire involves these systems?" Answer was "... they let it burn!"
Hey Mike,
I'm not dissing solar, I just want all the answers for my decision.
It sounds like you have a good sys, and your cost, are better bc you most likely DIYed it, and did a lot of research prior to dropping the dough.
For the non DIYers...I'm not sure that it can pencil...especially if you don't plan to stay in the house over the amortization and profit period.
Lloyd
Quote from: Lloyd on March 04, 2010, 10:32:52 AM
The thing to know with solar panels is they cannot be shut down, they are ALWAYS ENERGIZED. And they are energized with up to 600 volts of DC current.
This is all addressed with proper install and inspection. There is supposed to be a ground accessable labled disconnect. The individiual panels will still have power if light is shining on them.
Code limits voltage to 600V. Energized "lines down" that fire departments deal with are 1,200V, at least the one in my backyard was, and in '71, they had no trouble with it. i'd never seen copper wire dance like that!
Things change. Emgerency crews need to deal with EV's with a 400V battery bank. Most will live, some die. That's life outside the cave.
Mike,
I'm not so caviler about the safety of the FD. I once helped pull a burning man from a house fire, he looked as an angel with his skin dripping from his arms, neck and shoulders, to appear as wings. I was a volunteer.
They save lives and it could be you or your families.
The FD will eventually get the safety factors they need and it will increase the cost of solar, in the future.
Lloyd
besides it only takes 48 volts across the heart to cause possible defib
Not intending to be caviler, but sort of realistic. i'm sick of being coddled in my adult life.
If the PV's are live and causing trouble, a blast from a hose will "open" them up. Hoses should not be grounded via the operator, wire is much better, 2 for redundancy.
I guess that's the sort of thing all my tax $ are going to be spent on, instead of pissed away on goverment cubicle dwellers, which have grown in #'s as revenue has gone down.
Hi Mike,
BC this whole solar thing is in it's infancy a lot of things haven't been completely vetted. What's your take on the insurance issues?
Lloyd
It's not just the DIYers in the industry having problems
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article6597693.ece (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article6597693.ece)
BP solar panel blaze raises concerns
Fresh concerns have emerged over the future of BP's alternative energy business after a fire broke out at one of the company's largest solar power installations in Germany.
The incident on June 21 destroyed nearly 200 sq m of one of the world's largest roof-mounted solar panel arrays on a warehouse complex in Bürstadt, near Mannheim. As outside investigators and BP's own staff were looking into the cause of the fire, a spokesman for BP Solar confirmed that much of the equipment involved had been supplied by the company four or five years ago.
"It is not going to make the transition to be competitive with more conventional power — the gap is too big. If solar is going to make a breakthrough, there will be a technology disintermediation step."
Vivienne Cox, head of alternative energy at BP, left the group this month and the company is shutting the head office of its alternative energy business in London. However, BP insists that it remains firmly commited to lower-carbon energy.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/energy-smart/garrett-cancels-university-appearance-20100218-oeio.html (http://www.smh.com.au/environment/energy-smart/garrett-cancels-university-appearance-20100218-oeio.html)
Garrett cancels university appearance
February 18, 2010
Federal Environment Minister Peter Garrett has cancelled an appearance at the Australian National University amid fresh safety concerns over another program run by his department.
There are now claims that thousands of homes could be at risk of electrical fires due to badly installed or poor quality solar panels under a government rebate scheme.
Geoff Stapleton, a technical adviser who sits on a Clean Energy Council committee, says there is a risk of house fires because of rushed installation of the roof-top panels.
QuoteUp to 50% of the total insurable value of a solar installation is comprised of Federal Investment Tax Credits (FITCs), US Treasury Renewable Energy Cash Grants, Depreciation Tax Shields and Renewable Energy Credits (RECs). In the event of catastrophic damage to the solar installation, the financial funding group could suffer a major loss, because the unvested portions of prepaid credits and cash grants are legally refundable to the issuing agencies.
Walsh Carter's TOTAL SPF Insurance Program is distinguishable from all other insurance offerings because we negotiated and include coverage on these four critical items:
* Loss of Investment Tax Credit (ITC)
* Loss of US Treasury Department Renewable Energy Cash Grant
* Loss of Depreciation Tax Shield
* Loss of Renewable Energy Credits (RECs)
What this means, if there is a catastrophic loss prior to the end of the useful life, an owner could be liable to pay back any unused value of the incentive.
Another reason to consider the insurance, requirements, in the scheme of things.
Lloyd
here's a good link http://www.solardave.com/index.php/diy-solar-install-photos-and-writeup (http://www.solardave.com/index.php/diy-solar-install-photos-and-writeup) about diy
Value was added to my homeowners insurance, like any other improvement. Sux about the large BP install going up in smoke. Recently, there have been several measures taken, most important, the UV rated cables and MC connectors molded onto the panels. That should take some of the failures out of the works. Better isnpector awareness will eventually happen, I'm sure a lot of these issues came up when Edison and Westinghouse first started to wire towns up. Same with steam boilers. Railrads. Cars. Things improved as we learned reasonable way to deal with them.
Interesting discussion. Because of the expense, I always considered solar to be the last option. If you absolutely need electrons and there isn't any other way to get them, than I might go solar. Maybe solar expense will come down and with other fuel cost going up, it might someday become better option.
Just for the record, I'm not against solar. The 85w Kyrocera that Installed w/ a morningstar mppt controller, may be one of the best investments, I made on my old boat.
I'm just researching solar for our retirement home, and I am thinking that for right now...I would be an early adopter...where the roi is better for everyone(parts suppliers) in the loop but me.
So far my research tells me that there will be a quantum leap, in the next 5 years that will change the economics. I would hate to find that my 25 year investment (before a net on my roi) 5 years from now will not be worth anything but recycle value. Sure I could continue to use the existing sys...but I find that on par with staying with a 486 running 3.1.
Lloyd
I have never been a big fan of panels over the roof for the reasons mentioned. One other important one is heat. Panels don't like it, and roof's have a lot of it in the sun... IMO, panels belong out on a pole, just like batteries don't belong in the house. That much energy can easilly destroy a home in short order if it cooks off inside.
The standalone structure is almost always easier to maintain or repair. If pole mounted, it is preferably one with a tracking mount. Tracked panels prouduce up to 40% more energy for a given sq/ft. That seems like a no-brainer to me given the cost of panels, but not everyone has the room necessary to accomidate such an installation.
Ron,
You bring up a good point about the heat generated from the roofing. I know that PVs increase in efficiency the cooler they run, but it never crossed my mind, that some roofing materials actually act as heat sinks.
One of my test bed projects is adapting a reverse refrigeration cycle to a PV, using the new very efficient dc refrigeration rolling piston pumps, to make domestic hot water...a co-gen.
The idea is that I need domestic HW, PVs are more efficient the cooler they run, so laminating an evaporator to the back of a PV, exchanging the heat gain to my HW, and cooling the PV. It won't be over unity, but I have to spend current(energy) to make HW anyway.
I have a friend who is a refer tech...but knows nothing of Solar PVs, so we are kicking tires right now..but this fall I want to have a test unit...to try.
Lloyd
I agree Ron, pole mounted trackable panels offer many benefits over roof mount. And since one really can't really hide the panels, putting them on a pole is a cool way showing them off without all the disadvantages of roof mounting them. It seems like I have been hearing that solar panels would be getting more efficient and cheaper my entire life... Same story with flat screens TVs, which have finally more or less gotten there. Maybe solar panels will get there too someday if the market is perceived to be large enough to justify the technology investment.
Since prices on panels have come down so much, I think that unless you have some special use for the extra power in the summer, trackers don't make much sense economically. For most off grid homes with primary PV power, it's the winter months that drive the system design, and there is little to be gained with tracking in the winter north of say 42 degrees latitude.
I bought 875 watts of panels for $2500 last summer. You can easily spend more than that on a tracker for the same amount of panels. I had a season tiltable rack made for $150 complete from square steel tubing- panel frames were jig drilled and bolted direct to the rack. It's mounted on the south facing slope to the valley below my pump house/battery shed, where it cannot be seen, even from the house site (a security issue for a remote site). It's shown below in the "summer" tilt.
There is something to be said for a simple ground mount- they can be very cheap, and for my area they are better suited than pole top mounts because of high winds and gusts over 90mph every spring.
I hope to add a wind turbine generator on the hill next to the pump house someday- in the winter here most cloudy storm systems are accompanied by winds both coming and going, so most local off grid homeowners have found wind very helpful in reducing generator time. They typically have excess PV capacity spring through fall.
Bruce, I really like your setup...solar, shop and house. We are in process of sorting out house/shop plans for our retirement place. We want a shop/garage (which we will build first) with some space that can be made liveable after inspection so we can live there while we build the house. We want a rambler style house, 1800 sq ft or less, standard construction approach, covered porch(es), metal roof, radiant floor heating, wood stove (we have few million feet of trees in our backyard...), propane for cooking stove and radiant floor heating system, and maybe high quality fax log siding. Power will be hydro, maybe solar, listeroid, and grid backup. Maybe you have shop/house plans or thoughts to lead me in right direction... I don't want to hijack this thread so might be better to have this converstation in another section of forum.
Bob B.
Sure, Bob, I'll be glad to share what lessons I learned. Your plans sound nice. I love my in-floor heat which runs on just a 10 watt circ pump and the smallest no-AC propane hot water heater. The super-insulation job (including double framed exterior wall, R38 and R80 attic) has proven very worthwhile...summer temperatures in the house are delightfully cool with no cooling system at all. I have a propane fridge which I like for the utter quiet, mine was modified to be truly sealed combustion.
The shop is bigger than the house, I think that's a critical design issue! ;)
Quote from: BruceM on March 05, 2010, 08:05:59 PM
The shop is bigger than the house, I think that's a critical design issue! ;)
Nice setup there Bruce! You are right about the shop needing to be bigger than the house. Mine is by a factor of over 2X. I wish I had the insulation you do.
Curious. Why do you think having the solar panel system not visible from the house to be an advantage?
Nice setup, Bruce.
QuoteWhy do you think having the solar panel system not visible from the house to be an advantage?
Ground mounted panels are tempting for theft.
I had planned on doing radiant floor heating but the ground conditions suggested a perimeter foundation was the way to go, plus it was a lot of extra money. SIP construction, 2680SF 2 story Victorian farmhouse style, metal roof, wrap around covered porch. Heat the whole thing no problem with a woodstove and it stays nice and cool in the summer with no AC.
A friend gave us 2 180W panels and we bought 2 more 205W panels for $425 each lightly used. Got my 2 xantrex inverters and 16 iffy batteries for $3500 used, my Lister SR2 used for $800 so my power setup is pretty frugal. Now scouting the hydro location and will balance the system with more PV if needed.
A big shop/barn is for sure the next big project, probably be a couple years though. Propane stove and on demand water heater from a 2600g gravity feed tank.
I just have my PV panels leaning against my shed but will ground pole mount them soon, not a fan of panels on the roof since for one it's 30ft+ up there and 10/12 pitch. I like having them down where I can access them easily.
Double framed walls? Never heard of such a thing, does that mean you have 12" thick exterior wall?
Quote from: mbryner on March 06, 2010, 08:40:34 AM
Nice setup, Bruce.
QuoteWhy do you think having the solar panel system not visible from the house to be an advantage?
Ground mounted panels are tempting for theft.
I agree, so if you can't see 'em from your house, you can't keep an eye on them as someone is stealing them. I don't understand the logic of placing them so the owner cannot see them.
RCAvictim- I like the 2x shop to house size. There is no such thing as a shop too big. The solar panels can be seen from behind my house, by the clothes line, just not by the casual "looky lou" coming up to the house on the driveway or by the front of house or shop. The house is secluded in a hollow, so it's hard to case the joint- you can't see if anyone is home by car.
Double walled construction is fairly common in eastern Canada around the great lakes, near where I grew up. The same principals that work in an area with several weeks at -27F, also work well in more moderate climates. My total wall thickness is 13.5". By not having the inside studs touch the outside studs (staggered location is preferred), and a gap between sill plates, you eliminate thermal bridging of studs- which are typically less than R-1 per inch. My outer wall is 6", the inner 4", both batts are 6". The extra thick walls also allow for 4" of blue board (extruded polystyrene) between stem wall and slab. (The two walls bridge this foam, the inner wall thus is fastened to the warm slab and there is not a cold spot.) This works wonders for reducing slab thermal losses, according to the computer models I used, and according to my propane bill. My rooms are very uniform in temperature, no colder slab near the outside walls. No extra thermostats, zoning and extra pumps are needed for my small (1100 SF) house.
Where it's practical to do so, a well insulated concrete slab of 5-6" inside of a superinsulated home, alone with 5/8" sheetrock provides an enormous amount of thermal mass, for the least additional cost. Even if I had to do a lot of fill and tamp, I'd do it to keep the huge slab mass. For radiant slab, I like the method of 3/8" rebar on 14-16" centers, with Pex zip tied to the rebar (on plastic chairs over foam board). 1" Pex to manifolds can be run under the rebar.
On some sites, it's just not practical to do a slab. Also, for some contractors here, only a raised wood floor over crawlspace is practical- they are incapable of planning ahead accurately even with good floor plans and concrete is too unforgiving. You have to work with the resources you have.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 04, 2010, 09:07:55 PM
I'm just researching solar for our retirement home, and I am thinking that for right now...I would be an early adopter...where the roi is better for everyone(parts suppliers) in the loop but me.
So far my research tells me that there will be a quantum leap, in the next 5 years that will change the economics. I would hate to find that my 25 year investment (before a net on my roi) 5 years from now will not be worth anything but recycle value. Sure I could continue to use the existing sys...but I find that on par with staying with a 486 running 3.1.
Lloyd
A 25 year investment is a 25 year investment. This year's solar install may very well have no value in five years- if you want to sell the hardware. But if it's still providing the power you specified then it still has just as much worth as the day it first came online. It either powers your house or it doesn't, and hypothetically available future technology won't change the fact that your system powers your house.
Yes, the systems are going to get better and cheaper. So you get the best that you can when you actually do it. Unless the XYX 4300 solar panel is due out in a few months, get the damn XYZ 4200s that are available today and don't worry that at some unspecified point in the future you could have gotten more bang for the buck.
To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld,
"You go off the grid with the systems available, not the systems that will be available five years from now."
A 25 year declining value investment...is a real misnomer...being propagated by the solar equipment sales force.
How many actual PV panels are now 25 years old....none...the expected life value is an estimate...no real numbers yet.
How many peeps are living in the same house they were 25 years ago?
How many peeps will be living in the same house 25 years from the date of commissioning the Solar install?
Now five years later I'm in the market for a new house. My options are three identical homes for sale in the same neighborhood, built by the same builder, of similar plans, and upkeep.
house 1. No Solar installed.
house 2. A five year old solar install that is old technology...I'll bet this house won't sell for a price =to #1 plus the un-amortized costs of the solar install.
house 3. A new solar install with the latest greatest PV technology, that is 1.5 times more efficient, and dollar for dollar cheaper then the old technology. I'll bet this house will only sell at a marginally higher value then #2. certainly not for the same price as #1, plus the costs of the solar install.
Which house am I going to buy, which house are you going to buy?
The best bargain is buying another persons mistake for pennies on the dollar.
remember, you get no roi until after 25 years, on most systems...unless you are the diy'er/bargain hunter, then that may effect the market value of the house to a greater extent.
Lloyd
QuoteTo paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, "You go off the grid with the systems available, not the systems that will be available five years from now."
I go off grid for a reason...that is factored by noi...going off grid at a cost of power generated 3 time that which I can buy from the grid isn't an investment...that's a mistake....everyone loves to buy for pennies on the dollar.
I'm off the grid due to location, and I'm hopefully at my final resting place so no selling. I totally agree that for most people, PV makes no economic sense and there are usually other reasons that make them feel good about it for one reason or another. I got mine from a guy who buys them up from foreclosures and then sells them for 1/2 retail.
That double wall building sounds like great engineering but wouldn't a technology like SIP's or ICF be cheaper and just as effective?
I live in the middle of nowhere, if strangers get past the dogs then I or the wife will be waiting with the shotgun. We are rarely both gone for long, like that sign says, protected by Smith and Wesson 4 days a week, you guess which days.
I'm hoping technology comes to the rescue with fuel cells, carbon nanotube batteries, 4G cell/LTE/whitespace internet etc to make power and communication cheaper and better. Not holding my breath for it to plow my road though :-D
SIPs and ICF's are incarnations of insulated concrete forms or waferboard sandwich of foam, I assume. I haven't seen any in the R-39 range, but perhaps there are. Foam of a lesser R value will often perform better than bats where there are high winds, as most Tyvec jobs are poorly done.
Lots of ways to make a super insulated wall, but few are likely to be cheaper or simpler as just framing up a non-load bearing interior wall. My helper and I did the second exterior wall in one afternoon. There's this innovation called precut studs, and nail guns.
I have learned to love the nail gun! The SIP panels are indeed foam sandwiches, 6" of foam with 3/4 OSB on either side and they get all precut so when they arrive on site they go up super quick, just tilt up and glue/nail, whole shell goes up in days. Material cost is higher, labor is lower, in your case doing stuff yourself it would cost more, in mine I helped so it was probably a wash. It is a little harder to run electrical etc but they come with pre-done chases. R39 would have to be 10" not 6" like I have, my climate isn't severe enough to warrant the extra cost.
I can't work around or live inside with phenol-formaldehyde resins, so I'll never know if SIP would really save any money. We had the whole house framed and trusses on in a week with just two of us. (A third guy for trusses.) Plus an extra afternoon later for the interior-exterior wall. I had a builder friend who wanted to be hired for the framing. I said hell no, Bill, after all the suffering on the foundation and concrete work, framing is a party that's over too soon!
The SIP walls should perform well thermally- no air infiltration into the styrene bead insulation, and no studs to make thermal bridges and reduce the overall R factor. I think 6" of bead board is around R21, but I know that SIP wall will thermally outperform the heck out of a 6" framed wall with R-19 fiberglass insulation in the real world.
Sounds like you did it right, I'm just a young'un without any building experience so had to hire help. Indeed SIP walls outperform stud walls of the same R value by quite a bit but I would think your double walls are even better. I actually wanted to build a castle and have 3' thick walls with stone on the outside, foam in the center and traditional framing on the inside so I got thermal mass, insulation, and ease of interior installs all in one. Couldn't get the financing though and after building I can see why, it's tricky business!
Quote from: Jedon on March 06, 2010, 09:37:48 PM
Sounds like you did it right, I'm just a young'un without any building experience so had to hire help. Indeed SIP walls outperform stud walls of the same R value by quite a bit but I would think your double walls are even better. I actually wanted to build a castle and have 3' thick walls with stone on the outside, foam in the center and traditional framing on the inside so I got thermal mass, insulation, and ease of interior installs all in one. Couldn't get the financing though and after building I can see why, it's tricky business!
From an energy conservation perspective didn't you get that backwards? You'd want the 3 foot of stone on the inside. That would stay a constant temp year round due to it's mass. The insulation system outside of that would keep the heat of summer and the cold of winter from modulating it. You could add a solar thermal system which would pump heat into this stone mass when heat was available and needed to maintain indoor core temperature.
Yes, he got it backwards...
These days you want the thermal mass inside... (But in the future, do we want and need thick exterior walls for physical protection; that would depend on the mind, i think... ::) )
Yep, that's the bummer of stone or split face block (which I also like the look of); all that mass is outside the insulation envelope and does you no good at all, thermally.
Just my experience...
This is my 26th year in my house. It was my first home, and even then, I meant it to be my last, and if all goes right, I should still be here for another 25 years or so. I was very young when I bought it, but i had a plan. Everything I do around the house is meant to decrease maintanance (as my physical ability to do it decreases with age) and energy costs looking forward (as I don't expect them to go down anytime soon...).
I have a 24 year old 20 watt solar panel. It charges my emergency battery back-up system that can power some lights and a TV/radio for a while. Saves me having to start the generator in a short power outage.
That solar panel still works as well as it did when I bought it, the plastic cover is still dead clear, still has good voltage and current under load. The only thing I've replaced was the aluminum mount - it was bent over in the Ice Storm of 1997, but the panel itself survived. Those in Southern Ontario/Quebec know of that which I speak... ;D I've upgraded the inverter once, the charge controller is now a modern PWM unit, and changed the original deep-cycle boat battery (that worked great for 18 years!) for 2 AGM tel cells that are half the size and twice the capacity.
So ya, there are some old solar cells that still work, and some of us stay in our homes for 25 years... but it's rare... ;D The guys I worked with thought I was crazy - they all switched house every few years. They'd no sooner get a handle on their mortgage, and it would be time to get a bigger one - mortgage, I mean... ;D I never had a mortgage... I bought a cheap, fixer-upper on a fantastic lot. Really, I bought the place for the lot. That I could afford.
Of course - even 24 years ago, there was only science-fiction talk of powering one's house with solar. And one would have had to be a millionaire. If I remember correctly, that panel cost me $300 in 1986 dollars... and I only got it that "cheap" because a friend of mine worked for Bell Telephone, and they were ordering many of them... but I was an early adopter, and back then, I could afford it. Electricity was cheap in the past. In relative terms, it's still cheap. No way I'd get a payback on my solar panel - ever.
If I were to do it again - I'd build, not buy. I would've probably been farther ahead if I'd knocked down the house and built a new one, even with what passed for cutting-edge technology in 1984. I tell that to everyone who will listen - build a proper house! Don't buy the junk on the market in some subdivision! If you can't afford to do it now, wait until you can!
I've spent the last 26 years essentially re-building my home's 1970's technology - which was crap, and poorly-done at that. I've reinsulated, re-sided, rewired, replumbed, new floors, metal "lifetime" roof... and there's still a surprise or two left in the place, I think. But I have a fantastic site... and you know what they say about location...
In my new fantasy single-floor, ultra-low maintenance home, I'd use 10" SIPs, over a radiant-heat slab. There would be plenty of passive capacity built in, but I'd probably go geothermal for heating/cooling. With wood heat for backup and ambiance... and my 24 year old battery backup would find a place here, as well.
Quote from: Cornelius on March 07, 2010, 08:02:55 AM
Yes, he got it backwards...
These days you want the thermal mass inside... (But in the future, do we want and need thick exterior walls for physical protection; that would depend on the mind, i think... ::) )
This is where I stole the idea from http://www.castlemagic.com/castleplansopen.html , I thought to frame out some of the interior since it's a pain hanging things on rock :-)
This guy does some awesome work http://www.castlemagic.com , perhaps in 15 years my current place will be the guest-house...
I totally agree about the quality of most spec home, they just don't care and cut so many corners.
http://www.enphaseenergy.com/products/moreinfo/enlighten.cfm (http://www.enphaseenergy.com/products/moreinfo/enlighten.cfm) Now here is a technology that in it's infancy that looks to improve many a PV installation. Coupled, with a new CPVhttp://www.energyboom.com/solar/new-technology-creating-waves-solar-industry (http://www.energyboom.com/solar/new-technology-creating-waves-solar-industry) technology, and we may start to see PV's that approach 30% efficiency, which is 2 times the current tech. I think it's way to early to adopt...but just one of the many changes coming.
I spent over 25 years in the housing industry, Building, Sales,and Banking. Barring the the last economic cycle, RE has an unmatched ROI, that includes those tract houses. Move up buying has led to many families generating wealth, they could have never done by working or saving.
Early adoption of Solar, is the single biggest threat to that wealth building process I see.
Sure some have found a way to minimize the losses but they still exist.
Take an average PV install with all the associated costs, lets say $65,000.00. In five years it saves $120 x 12mo x 5yr = $7200.00 dollars in money paid to the grid. Now lets take the same 65,000.00 invested in a simple conservative 5% compounded annual return x 5yr = $17,958.00 so in five years the solar loss is over 10k. Due to compounding the loss grows exponentially, the longer you own the system.
Lloyd
Yes, I've bought and sold many houses and multis and had a fair amount of success. But not my actual primary residence.
As an investment strategy, I never understood how buying a primary residence with an excess of borrowed money, then selling that same house at a profit when the market goes up, only to buy a more expensive house with a larger amount of borrowed money, made any sense to an average person with no other off-setting investments. You can't get the money out until you sell, and you'll still need somewhere to live... and if the market is in downturn when you need the cash, you're in deep trouble. I'm too conservative an investor for that - and I can't afford to lose principal.
I think the same about solar. Without subsidies, I can't see the economic sense in it where I live, where the grid is available, and I'm not wealthy enough to try to act that "green.". With an investment of that size in the PV system, I could invest many other things, and the money I made would pay my hydro bill and then some, and provide for my future... And the last time I checked, mutual funds have a very low risk of catching fire should they be installed improperly... ;D
I think expensive government subsidies for wind and solar - buyback programs from private providers, in Southern Ontario - are terrible investments for the Ontario Hydro system... but that's just me, here.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 07, 2010, 11:18:54 AM
I spent over 25 years in the housing industry, Building, Sales,and Banking. <snip>
Early adoption of Solar, is the single biggest threat to that wealth building process I see.
Lloyd
Gee, I was never in banking and I see the fractional reserve banking system, the system where banks can freely create money out of thin air and lend it at astronomical interest rates as
the single biggest threat to that wealth building process I see. These banksters get rich sitting on their fat asses doing nothing creative while all the sweat equity of the working man paying off those loans trying to get ahead gets put into the pockets of the fat assed lazy banksters.
The ROI on solar gets kind of interesting if you do like I have. First was the purchase of an "off grid" property. Power is 1 mile away and an easement for that power is questionable so the cost for the 77 acres was about the same for a 1/2 acre lot in town. Then after we built the house we "avoided" the approx. 100k cost of bringing utility power in and spent 35k for a PV system. The system is mounted to a 50 year standing seam metal roof with no feed through's. The roof material uses a reflective surface that keeps the house cool, we have no A/C and the house rarely exceeds 80F in side. Also the panels shade most of the sunny side of the roof and also assist with cooling. Due to the topography of our home site, on the roof was the best place for solar access.
We have enough extra PV power that I installed an electric hot water heater wired for 120v to utilize the extra power. Here we are on March 1 and there is 110F water in the tank waiting for the next shower.
So I figure we achieved ROI the first time we turned on a light switch. And we just got 10.5k tax credit on the system.
The primary component that I believe will be obsoleted in the next few years are the $8K 48 volt battery bank in the basement.
We can all hope that one of the many "breakthroughs" in battery tech actually happens. Wet lead acid really is pretty pathetic, but still king of bulk storage ($/WH) though essentially unchanged for well over 80+ yrs. How many times in the last decade alone have we all read those "breathless" articles about a breakthrough battery, only to have it never materialize.
Here in rural Arizona, Arizona Public Service (APS) now gives you zero free feet for a new hookup, and installed price is now about $50 per foot for in ground service, $35 in areas still on poles. With 40 acre lots, even if your neighboring lot has power, you are out $75K for the average of 1500 ft. hookup. The few new homes being built in this area are now forgoing grid hookup; like Tom they'd rather be their own power co.
Jedon, you detoured me on that castlemagic.com site for the last 45 minutes. Very cool! Except not too many people are going to build them at $400-600/sq ft!!!
The Castlemagic method of insulating the inside stone wall while tying it to the outside wall for stability looks interesting. So does the attempt at steel reinforcing. Alas, the bottom floor of the inside wall is problematic as the inner wall is so heavy it's footing can't be insulated- and that footing must be substantially steel ted to the outer wall footing. Stone, concrete and steel are poor insulators. That wall will be a chilly heat sink to the earth.
I ran into the same issue (on a smaller scale) when considering some stone interior walls for my radiant slab house...even though in this case one could use foam under a broad mini-footing, it complicated the slab design to the point of absurdity (for a small ranch house).
QuoteThat wall will be a chilly heat sink to the earth.
Whoever can afford to build a castle like that can probably afford to throw many millions of BTU's into the floor to keep it warm, though, even if it does go right into the ground. :D
I had decided that the castle magic construction techniques, while very cool were way to expensive so I settled on using Rastra Blocks until I switched house designs altogether.
http://www.rastra.com/
a quote from "ettore' bugatti" to some crown prince who came back complaining
that his new race car was hard to start on cold mornings...
"if you can afford one of my cars, you can afford a heated garage, now away with you"
i too took a look at the castle website, how cool is that?
first thing i though of was how impossible it is to heat and cool a heavy stone structure
once it is hot, it will stay that way till late fall, once cold it will stay that way till late spring
and it take jillions of btu's to effect much if any change.
in more temperate area's of the world they might well be easy to live in, but in idaho?
i know i would not try one in kansas, even if i were a multibillionaire, because i know i would be a multibrokenaire
trying to control the inner climate.
bob g
Quote from: AdeV on March 04, 2010, 03:08:27 AM
Ouch indeed...
...although having read the whole thread, one does wonder if the "installer" was actually the home owner, using the cheapest panels he could find, and what looks like some old Meccano to lash it to his roof...
Personally, I'm not sold on the whole PV thing: They're expensive, have short lifespans, and are not particularly efficient. When - not if - I move to sunnier climes, I plan to have a solar hot water system, which is much safer IMHO, and more efficient, even if it does provide a lower grade of energy.
There is a place you can lease to own solar panels. They install them and there is no down payment. You can transfer or pay them off If you sell the home too. If there is a problem you can go back to them.
http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/03/05/2018937/a-bright-idea-on-solar-panel-leasing.html
There is a place you can lease to own solar panels. They install them and there is no down payment. You can transfer or pay them off If you sell the home too. If there is a problem you can go back to them.
That sounds like some stupid idea created by the mind of a bankster. By 'stupid idea' I mean great for the Leasor, not such a great deal for the Leasee. If it wasn't so it would not exist. Think about it.
Quote from: rcavictim on March 08, 2010, 03:30:53 PM
That sounds like some stupid idea created by the mind of a bankster. By 'stupid idea' I mean great for the Leasor, not such a great deal for the Leasee. If it wasn't so it would not exist. Think about it.
That is what I thought too, but how many of us have a 35 dollar a month electric bill? If I had the average house, I wouldn't care if they hooked my house up to a whale oil lamp. if it provided all my electricity for $35 a month for the next 15 years, I wouldn't care if I owned it then or not. TXU is a major electric company here in Texas so it Obviously is not a scam.
Here is the TXU website
http://www.txu.com/about/Press_Releases_TXU_Energy_Solar_Power.htm
Quote from: rbodell on March 08, 2010, 05:34:47 PM
Quote from: rcavictim on March 08, 2010, 03:30:53 PM
That sounds like some stupid idea created by the mind of a bankster. By 'stupid idea' I mean great for the Leasor, not such a great deal for the Leasee. If it wasn't so it would not exist. Think about it.
That is what I thought too, but how many of us have a 35 dollar a month electric bill? If I had the average house, I wouldn't care if they hooked my house up to a whale oil lamp. if it provided all my electricity for $35 a month for the next 15 years, I wouldn't care if I owned it then or not. TXU is a major electric company here in Texas so it Obviously is not a scam.
Just because a major corporation is doing something does not mean it isn't a scam. As I pointed out earlier, all legit above board bank loans are one of the most ingenious scams going and they are designed entirely to help the banksters, not the poor folks who take out the loans. The only thing you need to know about corporations is that they do nothing for their customers ever if it isn't going to do a lot more for their own shareholders. That is the bottom line.
I was unable to access the power co website you posted.
Quote from: rcavictim on March 08, 2010, 07:05:56 PM
Quote from: rbodell on March 08, 2010, 05:34:47 PM
Quote from: rcavictim on March 08, 2010, 03:30:53 PM
Just because a major corporation is doing something does not mean it isn't a scam.
But by the same token, it doesn't mean it is either. Would you risk a multi billion dollar corporation for a couple million?
As I pointed out earlier, all legit above board bank loans are one of the most ingenious scams going and they are designed entirely to help the banksters, not the poor folks who take out the loans.
Obviously you have a bad taste in your mouth for big business, but that doesn't mean they are all scams, even though you feel they are. I personally do not use credit, but I wonder how many of you out there would have a house and car if it wasn't for credit. I had to accept living in a 192 square foot home to avoid using credit. Is there anybody out there that would like to trade their home for mine? Most of you probably are amazed that I can live in that small of a space.
The only thing you need to know about corporations is that they do nothing for their customers ever if it isn't going to do a lot more for their own shareholders. That is the bottom line.
That is what is called free enterprise. The alternative would be the government owning all the businesses. What is that going to do for the people?
remember too, what is that little mom and pop store going to do for the people? Pop can't buy by the trainload like Walmart can so their prices will be even higher than the big company. Pop couldn't afford to give credit too. If you don't have the money, your kids go hungry. Nobody likes to pay interest, but we are adapted to credit and until we can wean ourselves away from it, we need it. Not everybody wants to not have credit too.
I was unable to access the power co website you posted.
I just tried it again and it worked. Try it again, maybe your ISP hick-uped at the same time it was trying to load. It appeared to be pretty simple html, so I doubt it had any Java or other fancy code in it.
rcavictim, I very much agree with your assessment of the solar rental scheme in particular and all such schemes in general. Press release enthusiasm is surely there to lure the gullible. (at least IMHO) I am constantly being telemarketed and door step confronted by salesmen trying to get me to sign up with energy resellers that are supposedly going to save ME money; ya, right! If it seems too good to be true..............!
I wouldn't worry too much about defending your opinion, Lol! ::)
There's always something in the fine print. In this case, just one gotcha in this deal is the built in escalation of 2.5% per year, with a 15 year commitment. (No doubt the undisclosed penalty for early termination is breathtaking.) I have no doubt that more than 5 minutes study of the full contract would find many more gems to gleefully f@#% the homeowner and or taxpayer.
Unscrupulous business practice defines US banking. After campaigning for and getting legislation to deregulate themselves, and then causing a collapse of the world economy by their greed and corruption, they have no shame. There is no better demonstration that democracy is a corporate plaything.
Wow. Remind me not to work the audience in this crowd! Lots of knee-jerk reactions. Skepticism is one thing. Blind prejudice is another.
The fine print indicates that in Kali-fornia the escalation is 3.9%/year which makes the deal less attractive. At 2.5% per annum, you're increasing the payment by about 50% over 15 years. At 3.9%, the payment increases by 77%. A close look at the terms specified in the lease contract is in order. And what happens when the lease is up? Here's the website. You can run your own what-ifs and decide if it makes sense. For me, it doesn't pencil out.
http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-lease.aspx (http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-lease.aspx)
and their FAQs: http://www.solarcity.com/learn/solar-faqs.aspx#a20 (http://www.solarcity.com/learn/solar-faqs.aspx#a20)
Quinn
Quote from: BruceM on March 09, 2010, 08:16:18 AM
Unscrupulous business practice defines US banking. After campaigning for and getting legislation to deregulate themselves, and then causing a collapse of the world economy by their greed and corruption, they have no shame. There is no better demonstration that democracy is a corporate plaything.
Just for the record....All that "Unscrupulous business practice" happens at the Boardroom level...not in your local branch. It's driven by the demand from their investors, all the financial returns we want on our 401k's, IRAS, AND OF COURSE THE IRS, SO THAT WE MAY PAY FOR ALL OF THOSE GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS EVERY AMERICAN HAS COME TO EXPECT. Plus a return on investment to keep the stock annalist happy to report how bright the future of such and such company is. PLUS ENOUGH MONEY TO COVER HUGE BONUSES FOR THE WALL STREET BANKERS,AND BOARDROOM MEMBERS. AND DON'T FORGET TO ADD A TIDY SUM FOR THE THIEFDOMS OF OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS.
THOMAS JEFFERSON said it best A Government Big Enough to GIVE us Everything we WANT, is also big enough to take EVERYTHING WE HAVE.
I fear we are headed to that point if things don't change...every state in the Nation is now considering huge tax increases to balance their budgets, on top of the huge tax increases coming down the pike, from our friendly US Government...Yes Obama...will increase the sum every American pays in taxes...it's just going to be titled fees instead.
We as the voter and tax payer are to blame. We have failed to hold our elected official responsible...we have short term memories...especially when the economy is booming...and we re-elect the same...to fulfill our desire for the government to take a dollar from our left pocket and give it back to us as 50 cents worth of entitlement in our right pocket, while consuming the other 50 cents, for operations, and padding their theifdoms.
Lloyd
Just remember there's no free lunch, whether its from business or government. Solar cost the same no matter who provides it, all cash up front or lease payments....you have to pay to use other peoples money...I don't think many here are in the business of loaning money....with out something in return.
Lloyd's right. TANSTAAFL*
*There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch Coined by the eminently quotable Robert Heinlein in his wonderful Sci-Fi book, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. A tale of the evolution of a libertarian utopian society. The phrase was popularized by Nobel Prize winning free-market (keep-a-you-hands-off-my-money) economist Milton Friedman (the invisible hand of economics; trickle-down economics) and Heinlein's book quickly became required reading in university economics classes.
Quinn
there is also a thing called "return on investment" of ones own money
i would have to consider whether buying the panels up front, thus saving the 2.5-3.9% would be better than borrowing and
paying the interest.
locking up your liquid assets for 15 years at a rate of 2.5% might be good today, but may be woefully inadequate rated of return
3, 5 or 10 years down the road.
factoring the cost of funds "borrowed" vs the loss of interest on those same funds "out of pocket" is something most folks
forget to calculate.
sometimes it makes more sense to borrow the money, and pay the interest.
then there is the tax angle involved,
if you buy the panels upfront, you might not be able to right them all off but have to depreciate them, and you are buying them
with after tax dollars.
if you are buying panels from the utility company, even with interest, you are buying over time, and likely can depreciate and right off
each years expense.
yes the devil is in the details and the details get very convoluted and "detailed"
:)
personally i don't see 2.5-3.9% interest rates as usery or abusive, and if it weren't for tax incentives to the utilities, there would be no
way they would or could extend those rates, a corporation just cannot extend the capital in some many directions with such a locked in
low rate of return,, not and keep its stock holders happy.
the utility is required to look at return on investment of its liquid funds as well, and determine where to put any extra funds into some
investment with a maximum yield and lowest risk
solar panels don't qualify as either max yield and low risk in my opinion.
bob g
We still talk about the market as though it is the economy, and about the economy as if it is a market. This talk misleads us, for three big reasons.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/what-weve-learned-our-increasingly-non-market-economy/ (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/what-weve-learned-our-increasingly-non-market-economy/)
Armed with generous incentives from the Spanish government to jump-start a national solar energy industry.
Soon, Puertollano, Had half the solar power installed globally in 2008 was installed in Spain.
Farmers sold land for solar plants. Boutiques opened. And people from all over the world, seeing business opportunities, moved to the city, which had suffered from 20 percent unemployment and a population exodus.
But as low-quality, poorly designed solar plants sprang up on Spain's plateaus, Spanish officials came to realize that they would have to subsidize many of them indefinitely, and that the industry they had created might never produce efficient green energy on its own.
In September the government abruptly changed course, cutting payments and capping solar construction.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/business/energy-environment/09solar.html?ref=business (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/business/energy-environment/09solar.html?ref=business)
When Bill Clinton entered the highest office, he had a net worth something south of 500K, when he left office his net worth was over ten times what he began with...
QuoteThe president earns a $400,000 annual salary, along with a $50,000 annual expense account, a $100,000 non-taxable travel account and $19,000 for entertainment.[16][17] The most recent raise in salary was approved by Congress and President Bill Clinton in 1999 and went into effect in 2001.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States)
I live in New Jersey and there are state subsidized incentives to install renewable energy. We did our installs in three phases. The first phase was 7kw the second phase was 3kw and the last phase was 11.2kw. With state incentives and the ability to sell our Renewable Energy Certificates ( we get around 650 to 675 dollars for each cert) and a 30% federal tax credit it was a no brainer for me . The first system installed in 2005 had very good state incentives and paid for itself in full in 1.5 years. The second install in 2007 had pretty good state incentives and paid for itself in 2 years. The last install which was just this year was not eligible for state incentives but did qualify for a 30% federal tax credit, this system will pay itself off in 3 to 3.5 years.
With all three arrays we will generate over 25,000kwh a year or 25 energy certificates worth over 16,000 dollars. The state guarantees and has locked the selling price for the energy certificates for 15 years from the date of each installation.
This time of year on a clear sunny day we produce anywhere between 115kwh and 120kwh, these numbers will increase daily until they start to drop off in September.
We have no electric bill, we have a very small Gas bill (cooking). Our water heater and cloths dryer are electric, our heating and cooling is provide by a Heat Pump and while not the most efficient means of heat (with natural gas available) when you are not paying for the electricity it really doesn't matter. At the end of the year when we true up with the electric company we will have sold them back about 10,000kwh of electricity for an additional 1,000 dollars or so.
Anyone that lives in New Jersey and does not install Solar if then can is crazy
Carl,
That's a screaming deal you got. Thanks for posting that.
Quinn
Quote from: mobile_bob on March 09, 2010, 09:34:50 AM
there is also a thing called "return on investment" of ones own money
i would have to consider whether buying the panels up front, thus saving the 2.5-3.9% would be better than borrowing and
paying the interest.
locking up your liquid assets for 15 years at a rate of 2.5% might be good today, but may be woefully inadequate rated of return
3, 5 or 10 years down the road.
Rite now I am getting 6% on an annuity. Totally disregarding the early withdrawl fee, it would cost me an extra 3.5% in lost income to buy them up front.
factoring the cost of funds "borrowed" vs the loss of interest on those same funds "out of pocket" is something most folks
forget to calculate.
personally i don't see 2.5-3.9% interest rates as usery or abusive,
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that 2.5 to 3.9% the monthly price increase, and not an interest increase? That is a lease, not a loan. If it were a loan, wouldn't that be compound interest? heck, my electric company went up 3% in the last 6 months. I'd be happy to be locked in for the next 15 years.
and if it weren't for tax incentives to the utilities, there would be no
way they would or could extend those rates, a corporation just cannot extend the capital in some many directions with such a locked in
low rate of return,, not and keep its stock holders happy.
Yeah they got to make a profit. If I had a convenience store I would have to make a 40% profit to pay my rent insurance etc. Everybody complains when my electric cooperative makes millions in profits, but hey don't think what it costs to put in a substation or how much it costs to put in just one of those big towers. I got no love lost for the power companies, but I like having that meter hooked up in case my roid is down waiting for parts. Nobody has to use them either. local codes may say you have to have electricity, but nowhere does it say you have to buy it from the power company.
It's like taxes, Most people don't like to pay taxes, but I don't. I don't need a big fancy house or new car or big income so my taxes for the year run about 800 to 1,000 dollars a year. For that I got police and an ambulance standing by if I want to call for them. I get paved roads and a hospital. I got the best country in the world to live in and the best military in the world to protect me. Is there anybody out there that can offer me a better deal? This year I had a little extra so I sent a $100 donation with my taxes. The same goes fort he electric company, you are not forced to use them, but they are nice and handy. You don't have to change oil, make fuel or do repairs, but you have to pay for that and they have to make enough money for incentive for them to show up to work in the mornings and to maintain their equipment.
Taxes and the government http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
Quote from: rcavictim on March 08, 2010, 07:05:56 PM
Just because a major corporation is doing something does not mean it isn't a scam. As I pointed out earlier, all legit above board bank loans are one of the most ingenious scams going and they are designed entirely to help the banksters, not the poor folks who take out the loans. The only thing you need to know about corporations is that they do nothing for their customers ever if it isn't going to do a lot more for their own shareholders. That is the bottom line.
Shareholders? Shareholders get wiped out, while directors and executives keep everything they've pocketed. Institutional investors look like they lose out with the rest of the shareholders, but it's not their money that got lost. Your 401(k) manager made his money no matter what happened to your account.
Don't forget that a lot of the banking mess we are in was due to banks attempting to make loans more available. This at the direction of the federal government. Basically they were told it was ok to make loans to people who really couldn't afford them...
Voodoo economics never works well for very long...
QuotePosted by: Carlb
I live in New Jersey and there are state subsidized incentives to install renewable energy. We did our installs in three phases. The first phase was 7kw the second phase was 3kw and the last phase was 11.2kw.
Hi Carlb,
I seem to be missing something, I don't see how you could amortize the install in such a short period. Especially with the output at 68 kwh, average per day (25,000kwh/365). How much is the rate for grid in your area, what did you do get a pennies on the dollar PV purchase, are you using inverter/battery, or is it inverter grid tye only?
Give us the gory details of your system...if it can be reproduced, it would be helpful to others
Thanks,
Lloyd
for those interested in economics a link below
http://www.economyprofessor.com/economictheories/dependency-theory.php
Dependency Theory
(1957)
First formulated by American economist Paul Baran (1910-1964), dependency theory proposes that, where a developing country for the most part specializes in producing one good (usually agricultural) for export, an exploitative relationship develops in which its financial and economic resources are controlled by the local elite and the international economy.
Also see: demographic transition
Source:
P Baran, The Political Economy of Growth (New York, 1957);
A G Frank, Dependent Accumulation and Underdevelopment (London, 1978)
Quote from: rbodell on March 09, 2010, 01:01:21 PM
Quote from: mobile_bob on March 09, 2010, 09:34:50 AM
there is also a thing called "return on investment" of ones own money
i would have to consider whether buying the panels up front, thus saving the 2.5-3.9% would be better than borrowing and
paying the interest.
locking up your liquid assets for 15 years at a rate of 2.5% might be good today, but may be woefully inadequate rated of return
3, 5 or 10 years down the road.
Rite now I am getting 6% on an annuity. Totally disregarding the early withdrawl fee, it would cost me an extra 3.5% in lost income to buy them up front.
factoring the cost of funds "borrowed" vs the loss of interest on those same funds "out of pocket" is something most folks
forget to calculate.
personally i don't see 2.5-3.9% interest rates as usery or abusive,
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that 2.5 to 3.9% the monthly price increase, and not an interest increase? That is a lease, not a loan. If it were a loan, wouldn't that be compound interest? heck, my electric company went up 3% in the last 6 months. I'd be happy to be locked in for the next 15 years.
and if it weren't for tax incentives to the utilities, there would be no
way they would or could extend those rates, a corporation just cannot extend the capital in some many directions with such a locked in
low rate of return,, not and keep its stock holders happy.
Yeah they got to make a profit. If I had a convenience store I would have to make a 40% profit to pay my rent insurance etc. Everybody complains when my electric cooperative makes millions in profits, but hey don't think what it costs to put in a substation or how much it costs to put in just one of those big towers. I got no love lost for the power companies, but I like having that meter hooked up in case my roid is down waiting for parts. Nobody has to use them either. local codes may say you have to have electricity, but nowhere does it say you have to buy it from the power company.
It's like taxes, Most people don't like to pay taxes, but I don't. I don't need a big fancy house or new car or big income so my taxes for the year run about 800 to 1,000 dollars a year. For that I got police and an ambulance standing by if I want to call for them. I get paved roads and a hospital. I got the best country in the world to live in and the best military in the world to protect me. Is there anybody out there that can offer me a better deal? This year I had a little extra so I sent a $100 donation with my taxes. The same goes fort he electric company, you are not forced to use them, but they are nice and handy. You don't have to change oil, make fuel or do repairs, but you have to pay for that and they have to make enough money for incentive for them to show up to work in the mornings and to maintain their equipment.
I knew I liked you the first time I checked your web site Mr. Bodell, we think very much alike (caution, that may make some here not like you !! :D :D
Quote from: Ronmar on March 09, 2010, 06:04:58 PM
Don't forget that a lot of the banking mess we are in was due to banks attempting to make loans more available. This at the direction of the federal government. Basically they were told it was ok to make loans to people who really couldn't afford them...
Voodoo economics never works well for very long...
This is called the "community reinvestment act". Started under Jimmy Carter & "doubled down" on under Bill Clinton. Basically Banks were told they WILL make these loans or they will be "investigated" "regulated" & slandered in the media (a willing accomplice). Most banks refused until the Governmennt (the cause of most problems) said they would insure the loans thru Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac. the banks came up with the mortgage backed securities to help insulate themselves from what they knew was going to eventually happen. Even after our recent melt down this is still going on, Just listen to Blarney Frank or Maxine Waters any time they are speaking. I would have posted some youtube vid of barney & maxine talking about how safe freddie & fannie are in 2004,but youtube isnot working for me right now. if you like to see them go to you tube & put in barney frank fannie mae 2004 hearings.
Scott R.
Now back on topic, i feel any time your cooking greenies it's a good thing, i like mine well done ;D
I knew I liked you the first time I checked your web site Mr. Bodell, we think very much alike (caution, that may make some here not like you !! :D :D
Thank you, I love it when my sheer presence can affect peoples lives. It doesn't bother me if people dislike me, the less people that like me, the more time I have for the ones who do like me.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 09, 2010, 08:07:55 PM
QuotePosted by: Carlb
I live in New Jersey and there are state subsidized incentives to install renewable energy. We did our installs in three phases. The first phase was 7kw the second phase was 3kw and the last phase was 11.2kw.
Hi Carlb,
I seem to be missing something, I don't see how you could amortize the install in such a short period. Especially with the output at 68 kwh, average per day (25,000kwh/365). How much is the rate for grid in your area, what did you do get a pennies on the dollar PV purchase, are you using inverter/battery, or is it inverter grid tye only?
Give us the gory details of your system...if it can be reproduced, it would be helpful to others
Thanks,
Lloyd
/quote]
Lloyd,
We sell back any extra to he utility when we settle up with them annually. We normally get about .07 per kwh. We really don't make any real money on the sale of excess electricity but we do make a substantial amount of money on the sale of the renewable energy credits that we acquire for producing "clean energy" we produce about 25 renewable energy credits a year and the going rate in NJ right now is around 650 dollars each. We purchased the solar panels @ 1.80 per watt and we are grid tied only no batteries using two SMA 5,000 inverters.
Carl