ouch "solar cooks greenie in his bed!"

[Lloyd]

Make sure you insurance company, puts a rider on any solar installs.

It would be a shame for them to escape coverage of a complete loss of a residence bc, of the solar.
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?s=1673dfe798cea19ce331e0bfac009d2a&t=4524

Lloyd

[AdeV]

Ouch indeed...

...although having read the whole thread, one does wonder if the "installer" was actually the home owner, using the cheapest panels he could find, and what looks like some old Meccano to lash it to his roof...

Personally, I'm not sold on the whole PV thing: They're expensive, have short lifespans, and are not particularly efficient. When - not if - I move to sunnier climes, I plan to have a solar hot water system, which is much safer IMHO, and more efficient, even if it does provide a lower grade of energy.

[Lloyd]

ADE,

I'm pretty much in your camp.

Also, when I look at the picture, another thing doesn't add up. I was on a couple of Volunteer FD's, and been to a few dozen fires. I don't see any sign that a fire hose was directed at those solar panels.

From everything I read a full system, to take care of modest needs of a typical house of three people, takes in excess of 25 years to amortize. Most people on average stay in their home for less then 10 years. Everyone say O the house will have a greater re-sell value...that is debatable. The technology change just 10 years from now will most likely make it obsolete, it may even lower value, bc of the cost to demo and bring in new technology. This statement is based on hired job, not diy.

I'm more inclined to use them as battery toppers.

Lloyd

[BruceM]

This was a pretty outrageous case of fraud- bogus panels with plastic covers, bogus cell intra-connects, with a bogus mount that had the panels visually bowing under their own weight.  We'd have to assume that the rest of the electrical system was similarly done.

I have to wonder about mounting panels on roofs...it's a lot of roof penetrations to leak, and any future roof repairs involve removing all the panels.  If all done by contractors, not on the cheap, would the net gain ever balance the ongoing costs?  It's certainly a good deal for system sellers, installers, and roofers.  

If Dr. Sam Milham is correct,

lqms.net/Documents/LQMSCancerv94-18-07.ppt

then high frequency content on you home AC wiring (all around you in every room, unshielded Romex) is especially bad, health-wise, for stay at home small children and mothers. At present, there is no regulation of EMI from these grid feeding inverters.  I would guess that the AC wiring would be "screaming" on an AM radio in these homes when the sun is shining.  I know of one situation where a neighbors grid tie system is grossly affecting power quality in all the 3 other homes which share the same transformer.  (4 output Wye with ground ties).

[Lloyd]

This leads to more questions, not answers. A fire hose directed at the panels certainly would have scoured the roof. I don't see any sign of even a water debris trail running below the panels, just some melted plastic'

Hmmmm



Hmmm, dates the pics uploaded, are a year a part between the panels and the fire trucks??

[DIR]   Parent Directory        -
[IMG]   DSC_2689.jpg   10-Feb-2009 21:03    121K
[IMG]   DSC_2696.jpg   10-Feb-2009 21:03    125K
[IMG]   DSC_2699.jpg   10-Feb-2009 21:03    85K
[IMG]   DSC_2701.jpg   10-Feb-2009 21:03    72K
[IMG]   IMG_1392s.jpg   11-Feb-2009 00:21    38K
[IMG]   IMG_1441s.jpg   11-Feb-2009 00:08    115K
[IMG]   house fire out.jpg   03-Feb-2010 10:19    136K
[IMG]   house on fire.jpg   03-Feb-2010 10:19    137K

Also it appears that at least 3 different cameras were involve in the photo shoot.

[Lloyd]

Hi Bruce,

Did they locate the source of the dirt power? I assume the school was all grid? What's your take on the source, seeing as how it was only certain rooms within the school?

What about switching power supplys, and florescent light ballast, I know when I worked in the commercial office arena, I always turned off my overhead flos and used incandescent task lights that I brought in. The flos always seemed to make me sleepy.

Lloyd



Margaret Thatcher: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

[Lloyd]

Be sure to unearth the hidden cost of solar panels, when making any financial decisions.

Lloyd



http://www.insuranceagents.com/solar-panel-insurance.html
Home Solar Panels Coverage

Just know that your local climate will probably be the biggest indicator for how much your homeowners insurance premium when you add home solar panels to your policy. Areas prone to very severe weather are more likely to have a higher rate of home solar panel claims. However, shopping online for homeowners insurance quotes may help you find the coverage you need without raising your premium costs much.

If you want to fully insure your home solar panels, be sure to discuss with your homeowners insurance agent the risks they think you need to prepare against. Here are just a few tips:

[Lloyd]

http://www.vcstar.com/news/2009/mar/14/simi-solar-panel-fire-raises-safety-issue/
"We don't have a history of fires," said Sue Kateley, executive director of the Sacramento-based California Solar Energy Industries Association. "On the other hand, the number of systems being installed now is more than the number we've had in the past. Odds are, we're going to see some issues."

Including the Simi Valley fire, there have been four incidences of fires in California linked to solar panels, Kateley said. One was caused by a homeowner-installed panel, she noted.

'It does happen'

http://www.bakersfield.com/news/local/x1442645194/Crime-shorts-Arcing-power-line-caused-Target-solar-panel-fire
Sunday April 5th 2009 at approximately 4:15 P.M., a call was received by the Kern County Fire Department for a commercial structure fire at Target on Rosedale Highway in Bakersfield. Approximately 22 Kern County and Bakersfield City Firefighters responded to the incident.

Upon arrival, fire crews were faced with a large column of thick black smoke coming from the roof area of Target. The crew made an immediate contact with the store's manager to determine if all of the employees and customers had evacuated the building. Crews then entered the building and made a systematic search to confirm that employees and customers had evacuated.

A ladder truck was set up and crews found that a row of solar panels on the roof had caught fire. Due to these panels still being energized with electricity, crews took precautions until they could be de-energized. After de-energizing the panels, crews found that some of the roof insulation had also caught fire. A small amount of water was then used while crews peeled back this affected area. Upon further investigation crews found that one of four pieces of conduit containing electrical supply lines, for a group of panels, had arced from an unknown electrical problem.

The cause is still under investigation.

-- Kern County Fire Department

[quinnf]

Geez, Lloyd, you're really on a roll.  I usually feel paranoid when I answer even one of my own posts.  People might think I'm talking to myself, and maybe a little touched in the head, you understand.  But I figure so long as I don't talk to myself using different names and voices, I'm probably OK.   

Quinn

[mike90045]

Having been a homeowner with solar PV panels (4.5KW array) and a modern FCC cert "B" Grid Tie Inverter, except for washing them off 2 or 3 times a year, they are "invisible".  Coupled with a decent tie-in arrangement with the electric company, my $35K investment provided me with a $5 monthly electric bill vs the previous $130 bill.  
I prepared my 15 year old roof with a re-shingle job, and had the roofer install the PV mounts.  Leaks solved!
I can assume I'll need an inverter replacement in 15 years, that's another $5K, so $40,000 / 125 /12= about a 26 year break even, if utility fees don't go up.   And I asumed the rates would go up, giving me a shorter payback.   Panels have a 25 year warrenty, and after the first few years, when weak panels are prone to die, 30 years life @ 80% power is reasonable.
And my retirement off grid, is based on a new install, 3KW array, with a 6/1 metro as backup for cloudy days.  
So don't all be so quick to diss PV.

[Lloyd]

Quinn,

I find it acceptable to talk with ones self...I just worry when I start answering myself back.

And since PV are high on my research to do list right now...I like to share ...this gives me a chance. If my channel bores someone then they don't have to listen, worst case I'm asked to leave the building.

Lloyd

http://www.firehouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105422
Dangers of Solar Panels

The thing to know with solar panels is they cannot be shut down, they are ALWAYS ENERGIZED. And they are energized with up to 600 volts of DC current. For example, you cannot put an ax through them to open up a roof to vent - your putting the ax through 600 volts. If fire is infringing upon solar panels on the roof it will compromise the integrity of the panels. You then have 600 volts of live electrical energy - and what don't you do when you have live electrical energy - you don't put water on it. Even if the roof burned through and the panels fell into the structure, unless the panels were destroyed (de-energized) by the fire and/or falling into the structure, they can still have the potential to be live. They have to be treated as such and have the potential of 600 volts of DC current.

The question asked which really put things in prospective - someone asked that since California is number one when it comes to Solar Panel System installations, "...what do their Firefighters do when a structure fire involves these systems?" Answer was "... they let it burn!"

[Lloyd]

Hey Mike,

I'm not dissing solar, I just want all the answers for my decision.

It sounds like you have a good sys, and your cost, are better bc you most likely DIYed it, and did a lot of research prior to dropping the dough.

For the non DIYers...I'm not sure that it can pencil...especially if you don't plan to stay in the house over the amortization and profit period.

Lloyd

[mike90045]

The thing to know with solar panels is they cannot be shut down, they are ALWAYS ENERGIZED. And they are energized with up to 600 volts of DC current.

This is all addressed with proper install and inspection.  There is supposed to be a ground accessable labled disconnect.  The individiual panels will still have power if light is shining on them.  
Code limits voltage to 600V.  Energized "lines down" that fire departments deal with are 1,200V, at least the one in my backyard was, and in '71, they had no trouble with it. i'd never seen copper wire dance like that!

Things change.  Emgerency crews need to deal with EV's with a 400V battery bank. Most will live, some die.  That's life outside the cave.

[Lloyd]

Mike,

I'm not so caviler about the safety of the FD. I once helped pull a burning man from a house fire, he looked as an angel with his skin dripping from his arms, neck and shoulders, to appear as wings. I was a volunteer.

They save lives and it could be you or your families.

The FD will eventually get the safety factors they need and it will increase the cost of solar, in the future.

Lloyd

besides it only takes 48 volts across the heart to cause possible defib

[mike90045]

Not intending to be caviler, but sort of realistic.  i'm sick of being coddled in my adult life.

If the PV's are live and causing trouble, a blast from a hose will "open" them up. Hoses should not be grounded via the operator, wire is much better, 2 for redundancy.

I guess that's the sort of thing all my tax $ are going to be spent on, instead of pissed away on goverment cubicle dwellers, which have grown in #'s as revenue has gone down.