ouch "solar cooks greenie in his bed!"

[Lloyd]

Hi Mike,

BC this whole solar thing is in it's infancy a lot of things haven't been completely vetted. What's your take on the insurance issues?

Lloyd

It's not just the DIYers in the industry having problems

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article6597693.ece

BP solar panel blaze raises concerns

Fresh concerns have emerged over the future of BP's alternative energy business after a fire broke out at one of the company's largest solar power installations in Germany.

The incident on June 21 destroyed nearly 200 sq m of one of the world's largest roof-mounted solar panel arrays on a warehouse complex in Bürstadt, near Mannheim. As outside investigators and BP's own staff were looking into the cause of the fire, a spokesman for BP Solar confirmed that much of the equipment involved had been supplied by the company four or five years ago.

"It is not going to make the transition to be competitive with more conventional power — the gap is too big. If solar is going to make a breakthrough, there will be a technology disintermediation step."

Vivienne Cox, head of alternative energy at BP, left the group this month and the company is shutting the head office of its alternative energy business in London. However, BP insists that it remains firmly commited to lower-carbon energy.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/energy-smart/garrett-cancels-university-appearance-20100218-oeio.html
  Garrett cancels university appearance
February 18, 2010

Federal Environment Minister Peter Garrett has cancelled an appearance at the Australian National University amid fresh safety concerns over another program run by his department.

There are now claims that thousands of homes could be at risk of electrical fires due to badly installed or poor quality solar panels under a government rebate scheme.

Geoff Stapleton, a technical adviser who sits on a Clean Energy Council committee, says there is a risk of house fires because of rushed installation of the roof-top panels.

[Lloyd]

Up to 50% of the total insurable value of a solar installation is comprised of Federal Investment Tax Credits (FITCs), US Treasury Renewable Energy Cash Grants, Depreciation Tax Shields and Renewable Energy Credits (RECs). In the event of catastrophic damage to the solar installation, the financial funding group could suffer a major loss, because the unvested portions of prepaid credits and cash grants are legally refundable to the issuing agencies.

Walsh Carter's TOTAL SPF Insurance Program is distinguishable from all other insurance offerings because we negotiated and include coverage on these four critical items:

   * Loss of Investment Tax Credit (ITC)
   * Loss of US Treasury Department Renewable Energy Cash Grant
   * Loss of Depreciation Tax Shield
   * Loss of Renewable Energy Credits (RECs)

What this means, if there is a catastrophic loss prior to the end of the useful life, an owner could be liable to pay back any unused value of the incentive.

Another reason to consider the insurance, requirements, in the scheme of things.

Lloyd

here's a good link http://www.solardave.com/index.php/diy-solar-install-photos-and-writeup  about diy

[mike90045]

Value was added to my homeowners insurance, like any other improvement.   Sux about the large BP install going up in smoke.  Recently, there have been several measures taken, most important, the UV rated cables and MC connectors molded onto the panels. That should take some of the failures out of the works.  Better isnpector awareness will eventually happen, I'm sure a lot of these issues came up when Edison and Westinghouse first started to wire towns up.  Same with steam boilers. Railrads. Cars. Things improved as we learned reasonable way to deal with them.

[sailawayrb]

Interesting discussion.  Because of the expense, I always considered solar to be the last option.  If you absolutely need electrons and there isn't any other way to get them, than I might go solar.  Maybe solar expense will come down and with other fuel cost going up, it might someday become better option.

[Lloyd]

Just for the record, I'm not against solar. The 85w Kyrocera that Installed w/ a morningstar mppt controller, may be one of the best investments, I made on my old boat.

I'm just researching solar for our retirement home, and I am thinking that for right now...I would be an early adopter...where the roi is better for everyone(parts suppliers) in the loop but me.

So far my research tells me that there will be a quantum leap, in the next 5 years that will change the economics. I would hate to find that my 25 year investment (before a net on my roi) 5 years from now will not be worth anything but recycle value. Sure I could continue to use the existing sys...but I find that on par with staying with a 486 running 3.1.

Lloyd

[Ronmar]

I have never been a big fan of panels over the roof for the reasons mentioned.  One other important one is heat.  Panels don't like it, and roof's have a lot of it in the sun...  IMO, panels belong out on a pole, just like batteries don't belong in the house.  That much energy can easilly destroy a home in short order if it cooks off inside.

The standalone structure is almost always easier to maintain or repair.  If pole mounted, it is preferably one with a tracking mount.  Tracked panels prouduce up to 40% more energy for a given sq/ft.  That seems like a no-brainer to me given the cost of panels, but not everyone has the room necessary to accomidate such an installation.

[Lloyd]

Ron,

You bring up a good point about the heat generated from the roofing. I know that PVs increase in efficiency the cooler they run, but it never crossed my mind, that some roofing materials actually act as heat sinks.

One of my test bed projects is adapting a reverse refrigeration cycle to a PV, using the new very efficient dc refrigeration rolling piston pumps, to make domestic hot water...a co-gen.

The idea is that I need domestic HW, PVs are more efficient the cooler they run, so laminating an evaporator to the back of a PV, exchanging the heat gain to my HW, and cooling the PV. It won't be over unity, but I have to spend current(energy) to make HW anyway.

I have a friend who is a refer tech...but knows nothing of Solar PVs, so we are kicking tires right now..but this fall I want to have a test unit...to try.

Lloyd

[sailawayrb]

I agree Ron, pole mounted trackable panels offer many benefits over roof mount.  And since one really can't really hide the panels, putting them on a pole is a cool way showing them off without all the disadvantages of roof mounting them.  It seems like I have been hearing that solar panels would be getting more efficient and cheaper my entire life...  Same story with flat screens TVs, which have finally more or less gotten there.  Maybe solar panels will get there too someday if the market is perceived to be large enough to justify the technology investment.

[BruceM]

Since prices on panels have come down so much, I think that unless you have some special use for the extra power in the summer, trackers don't make much sense economically.  For most off grid homes with primary PV power, it's the winter months that drive the system design, and there is little to be gained with tracking in the winter north of say 42 degrees latitude.  

I bought 875 watts of panels for $2500 last summer.  You can easily spend more than that on a tracker for the same amount of panels.  I had a season tiltable rack made for $150 complete from square steel tubing- panel frames were jig drilled and bolted direct to the rack.  It's mounted on the south facing slope to the valley below my pump house/battery shed, where it cannot be seen, even from the house site (a security issue for a remote site).  It's shown below in the "summer" tilt.  

There is something to be said for a simple ground mount- they can be very cheap, and for my area they are better suited than pole top mounts because of high winds and gusts over 90mph every spring.

I hope to add a wind turbine generator on the hill next to the pump house someday-  in the winter here most cloudy storm systems are accompanied by winds both coming and going, so most local off grid homeowners have found wind very helpful in reducing generator time.  They typically have excess PV capacity spring through fall.

[sailawayrb]

Bruce, I really like your setup...solar, shop and house.  We are in process of sorting out house/shop plans for our retirement place. We want a shop/garage (which we will build first) with some space that can be made liveable after inspection so we can live there while we build the house. We want a rambler style house, 1800 sq ft or less, standard construction approach, covered porch(es), metal roof, radiant floor heating, wood stove (we have few million feet of trees in our backyard...), propane for cooking stove and radiant floor heating system, and maybe high quality fax log siding.  Power will be hydro, maybe solar, listeroid, and grid backup. Maybe you have shop/house plans or thoughts to lead me in right direction... I don't want to hijack this thread so might be better to have this converstation in another section of forum.

Bob B.

[BruceM]

Sure, Bob, I'll be glad to share what lessons I learned.  Your plans sound nice.   I love my in-floor heat which runs on just a 10 watt circ pump and the smallest no-AC propane hot water heater. The super-insulation job (including double framed exterior wall, R38 and R80 attic)  has proven very worthwhile...summer temperatures in the house are delightfully cool with no cooling system at all. I have a propane fridge which I like for the utter quiet, mine was modified to be truly sealed combustion.

The shop is bigger than the house, I think that's a critical design issue!   

[rcavictim]

The shop is bigger than the house, I think that's a critical design issue!   

Nice setup there Bruce!  You are right about the shop needing to be bigger than the house.  Mine is by a factor of over 2X.  I wish I had the insulation you do.

Curious.  Why do you think having the solar panel system not visible from the house to be an advantage?

[mbryner]

Nice setup, Bruce.

Why do you think having the solar panel system not visible from the house to be an advantage?

Ground mounted panels are tempting for theft.

[Jedon]

I had planned on doing radiant floor heating but the ground conditions suggested a perimeter foundation was the way to go, plus it was a lot of extra money. SIP construction, 2680SF 2 story Victorian farmhouse style, metal roof, wrap around covered porch. Heat the whole thing no problem with a woodstove and it stays nice and cool in the summer with no AC.
A friend gave us 2 180W panels and we bought 2 more 205W panels for $425 each lightly used. Got my 2 xantrex inverters and 16 iffy batteries for $3500 used, my Lister SR2 used for $800 so my power setup is pretty frugal. Now scouting the hydro location and will balance the system with more PV if needed.
A big shop/barn is for sure the next big project, probably be a couple years though. Propane stove and on demand water heater from a 2600g gravity feed tank.
I just have my PV panels leaning against my shed but will ground pole mount them soon, not a fan of panels on the roof since for one it's 30ft+ up there and 10/12 pitch. I like having them down where I can access them easily.
Double framed walls? Never heard of such a thing, does that mean you have 12" thick exterior wall?

[rcavictim]

Nice setup, Bruce.

Why do you think having the solar panel system not visible from the house to be an advantage?

Ground mounted panels are tempting for theft.

I agree, so if you can't see 'em from your house, you can't keep an eye on them as someone is stealing them.  I don't understand the logic of placing them so the owner cannot see them.