ouch "solar cooks greenie in his bed!"

[BruceM]

There's always something in the fine print. In this case, just one gotcha in this deal is the built in escalation of 2.5% per year, with a 15 year commitment. (No doubt the undisclosed penalty for early termination is breathtaking.) I have no doubt that more than 5 minutes study of the full contract would find many more gems to gleefully f@#% the homeowner and or taxpayer.  

Unscrupulous business practice defines US banking.  After campaigning for and getting legislation to deregulate themselves, and then causing a collapse of the world economy by their greed and corruption, they have no shame.  There is no better demonstration that democracy is a corporate plaything.  

[quinnf]

Wow.  Remind me not to work the audience in this crowd!  Lots of knee-jerk reactions.  Skepticism is one thing.  Blind prejudice is another.

The fine print indicates that in Kali-fornia the escalation is 3.9%/year which makes the deal less attractive.  At 2.5% per annum, you're increasing the payment by about 50% over 15 years.  At 3.9%, the payment increases by 77%.  A close look at the terms specified in the lease contract is in order.  And what happens when the lease is up?  Here's the website.  You can run your own what-ifs and decide if it makes sense.  For me, it doesn't pencil out.

http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-lease.aspx

and their FAQs:  http://www.solarcity.com/learn/solar-faqs.aspx#a20

Quinn

[Lloyd]

Unscrupulous business practice defines US banking.  After campaigning for and getting legislation to deregulate themselves, and then causing a collapse of the world economy by their greed and corruption, they have no shame.  There is no better demonstration that democracy is a corporate plaything.  

Just for the record....All that "Unscrupulous business practice" happens at the Boardroom level...not in your local branch. It's driven by the demand from their investors, all the financial returns we want on our 401k's, IRAS, AND OF COURSE THE IRS, SO THAT WE MAY PAY FOR ALL OF THOSE GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS EVERY AMERICAN HAS COME TO EXPECT. Plus a return on investment to keep the stock annalist happy to report how bright the future of such and such company is. PLUS ENOUGH MONEY TO COVER HUGE BONUSES FOR THE WALL STREET BANKERS,AND BOARDROOM MEMBERS. AND DON'T FORGET TO ADD A TIDY SUM FOR THE THIEFDOMS OF OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS.

THOMAS JEFFERSON said it best A Government Big Enough to GIVE us Everything we WANT, is also big enough to take EVERYTHING WE HAVE.

I fear we are headed to that point if things don't change...every state in the Nation is now considering huge tax increases to balance their budgets, on top of the huge tax increases coming down the pike, from our friendly US Government...Yes Obama...will increase the sum every American pays in taxes...it's just going to be titled fees instead.

We as the voter and tax payer are to blame. We have failed to hold our elected official responsible...we have short term memories...especially when the economy is booming...and we re-elect the same...to fulfill our desire for the government to take a dollar from our left pocket and give it back to us as 50 cents worth of entitlement in our right pocket, while consuming the other 50 cents, for operations, and padding their theifdoms.

Lloyd


Just remember there's no free lunch, whether its from business or government. Solar cost the same no matter who provides it, all cash up front or lease payments....you have to pay to use other peoples money...I don't think many here are in the business of loaning money....with out something in return.

[quinnf]

Lloyd's right.  TANSTAAFL*



*There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch  Coined by the eminently quotable Robert Heinlein in his wonderful Sci-Fi book, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  A tale of the evolution of a libertarian utopian society.  The phrase was popularized by Nobel Prize winning free-market (keep-a-you-hands-off-my-money) economist Milton Friedman (the invisible hand of economics; trickle-down economics) and Heinlein's book quickly became required reading in university economics classes.  

Quinn

[mobile_bob]

there is also a thing called "return on investment" of ones own money

i would have to consider whether buying the panels up front, thus saving the 2.5-3.9% would be better than borrowing and
paying the interest.

locking up your liquid assets for 15 years at a rate of 2.5% might be good today, but may be woefully inadequate rated of return
3, 5 or 10 years down the road.

factoring the cost of funds "borrowed"  vs the loss of interest on those same funds "out of pocket" is something most folks
forget to calculate.

sometimes it makes more sense to borrow the money, and pay the interest.

then there is the tax angle involved,

if you buy the panels upfront, you might not be able to right them all off but have to depreciate them, and you are buying them
with after tax dollars.

if you are buying panels from the utility company, even with interest, you are buying over time, and likely can depreciate and right off
each years expense.

yes the devil is in the details and the details get very convoluted and "detailed"



personally i don't see 2.5-3.9% interest rates as usery or abusive, and if it weren't for tax incentives to the utilities, there would be no
way they would or could extend those rates, a corporation just cannot extend the capital in some many directions with such a locked in
low rate of return,, not and keep its stock holders happy.

the utility is required to look at return on investment of its liquid funds as well, and determine where to put any extra funds into some
investment with a maximum yield and lowest risk

solar panels don't qualify as either max yield and low risk in my opinion.


bob g

[Lloyd]

We still talk about the market as though it is the economy, and about the economy as if it is a market. This talk misleads us, for three big reasons.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/what-weve-learned-our-increasingly-non-market-economy/



Armed with generous incentives from the Spanish government to jump-start a national solar energy industry.

Soon, Puertollano, Had half the solar power installed globally in 2008 was installed in Spain.

Farmers sold land for solar plants. Boutiques opened. And people from all over the world, seeing business opportunities, moved to the city, which had suffered from 20 percent unemployment and a population exodus.

But as low-quality, poorly designed solar plants sprang up on Spain's plateaus, Spanish officials came to realize that they would have to subsidize many of them indefinitely, and that the industry they had created might never produce efficient green energy on its own.

In September the government abruptly changed course, cutting payments and capping solar construction.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/business/energy-environment/09solar.html?ref=business

[Lloyd]

When Bill Clinton entered the highest office, he had a net worth something south of 500K, when he left office his net worth was over ten times what he began with...

The president earns a $400,000 annual salary, along with a $50,000 annual expense account, a $100,000 non-taxable travel account and $19,000 for entertainment.[16][17] The most recent raise in salary was approved by Congress and President Bill Clinton in 1999 and went into effect in 2001.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States

[Carlb]

I live in New Jersey and there are state subsidized incentives to install renewable energy.  We did our installs in three phases.  The first phase was 7kw the second phase was 3kw and the last phase was 11.2kw. With state incentives and the ability to sell our Renewable Energy Certificates ( we get around 650 to 675 dollars for each cert) and a 30% federal tax credit it was a no brainer for me .  The first system installed in 2005 had very good state incentives and paid for itself in full in 1.5 years. The second install in 2007 had pretty good state incentives and paid for itself in 2 years. The last install which was just this year was not eligible for state incentives but did qualify for a 30% federal tax credit, this system will pay itself off in 3 to 3.5 years.

With all three arrays we will generate over 25,000kwh a year or 25 energy certificates worth over 16,000 dollars. The state guarantees and has locked the selling price for the energy certificates for 15 years from the date of each installation.   

This time of year on a clear sunny day we produce anywhere between 115kwh and 120kwh, these numbers will increase daily until they start to drop off in September.



We  have no electric bill, we have a very small Gas bill (cooking). Our water heater and cloths dryer are electric, our heating and cooling  is provide by a Heat Pump and while not the most efficient means of heat (with natural gas available) when you are not paying for the electricity it really doesn't matter.  At the end of the year when we true up with the electric company we will have sold them back about 10,000kwh of electricity for an additional 1,000 dollars or so.

Anyone that lives in New Jersey and does not install Solar if then can is crazy

[quinnf]

Carl,

That's a screaming deal you got.  Thanks for posting that.

Quinn

[rbodell]

there is also a thing called "return on investment" of ones own money

i would have to consider whether buying the panels up front, thus saving the 2.5-3.9% would be better than borrowing and
paying the interest.

locking up your liquid assets for 15 years at a rate of 2.5% might be good today, but may be woefully inadequate rated of return
3, 5 or 10 years down the road.

Rite now I am getting 6% on an annuity. Totally disregarding the early withdrawl fee, it would cost me an extra 3.5% in lost income to buy them up front.  

factoring the cost of funds "borrowed"  vs the loss of interest on those same funds "out of pocket" is something most folks
forget to calculate.

personally i don't see 2.5-3.9% interest rates as usery or abusive,

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that 2.5 to 3.9% the monthly price increase, and not an interest increase? That is a lease, not a loan. If it were a loan, wouldn't that be compound interest? heck, my electric company went up 3% in the last 6 months. I'd be happy to be locked in for the next 15 years.

and if it weren't for tax incentives to the utilities, there would be no
way they would or could extend those rates, a corporation just cannot extend the capital in some many directions with such a locked in
low rate of return,, not and keep its stock holders happy.
Yeah they got to make a profit. If I had a convenience store I would have to make a 40% profit to pay my rent insurance etc. Everybody complains when my electric cooperative makes millions in profits, but hey don't think what it costs to put in a substation or how much it costs to put in just one of those big towers. I got no love lost for the power companies, but I like having that meter hooked up in case my roid is down waiting for parts. Nobody has to use them either. local codes may say you have to have electricity, but nowhere does it say you have to buy it from the power company.

It's like taxes, Most people don't like to pay taxes, but I don't. I don't need a big fancy house or new car or big income so my taxes for the year run about 800 to 1,000 dollars a year. For that I got police and an ambulance standing by if I want to call for them. I get paved roads and a hospital. I got the best country in the world to live in and the best military in the world to protect me. Is there anybody out there that can offer me a better deal? This year I had a little extra so I sent a $100 donation with my taxes. The same goes fort he electric company, you are not forced to use them, but they are nice and handy. You don't have to change oil, make fuel or do repairs, but you have to pay for that and they have to make enough money for incentive for them to show up to work in the mornings and to maintain their equipment.

[Jedon]

Taxes and the government http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

[Fat Charlie]

Just because a major corporation is doing something does not mean it isn't a scam.  As I pointed out earlier, all legit above board bank loans are one of the most ingenious scams going and they are designed entirely to help the banksters, not the poor folks who take out the loans.  The only thing you need to know about corporations is that they do nothing for their customers ever if it isn't going to do a lot more for their own shareholders.  That is the bottom line.

Shareholders?  Shareholders get wiped out, while directors and executives keep everything they've pocketed.  Institutional investors look like they lose out with the rest of the shareholders, but it's not their money that got lost.  Your 401(k) manager made his money no matter what happened to your account. 

[Ronmar]

Don't forget that a lot of the banking mess we are in was due to banks attempting to make loans more available.  This at the direction of the federal government.  Basically they were told it was ok to make loans to people who really couldn't afford them...

Voodoo economics never works well for very long...

[Lloyd]

Posted by: Carlb

I live in New Jersey and there are state subsidized incentives to install renewable energy.  We did our installs in three phases.  The first phase was 7kw the second phase was 3kw and the last phase was 11.2kw.

Hi Carlb,

I seem to be missing something, I don't see how you could amortize the install in such a short period. Especially with the output at 68 kwh, average per day (25,000kwh/365). How much is the rate for grid in your area, what did you do get a pennies on the dollar PV purchase, are you using inverter/battery, or is it inverter grid tye only?

Give us the gory details of your system...if it can be reproduced, it would be helpful to others

Thanks,

Lloyd


for those interested in economics a link below


http://www.economyprofessor.com/economictheories/dependency-theory.php
Dependency Theory

(1957)

First formulated by American economist Paul Baran (1910-1964), dependency theory proposes that, where a developing country for the most part specializes in producing one good (usually agricultural) for export, an exploitative relationship develops in which its financial and economic resources are controlled by the local elite and the international economy.

Also see: demographic transition

Source:
P Baran, The Political Economy of Growth (New York, 1957);
A G Frank, Dependent Accumulation and Underdevelopment (London, 1978)

[lowspeedlife]

there is also a thing called "return on investment" of ones own money

i would have to consider whether buying the panels up front, thus saving the 2.5-3.9% would be better than borrowing and
paying the interest.

locking up your liquid assets for 15 years at a rate of 2.5% might be good today, but may be woefully inadequate rated of return
3, 5 or 10 years down the road.

Rite now I am getting 6% on an annuity. Totally disregarding the early withdrawl fee, it would cost me an extra 3.5% in lost income to buy them up front.  

factoring the cost of funds "borrowed"  vs the loss of interest on those same funds "out of pocket" is something most folks
forget to calculate.

personally i don't see 2.5-3.9% interest rates as usery or abusive,

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that 2.5 to 3.9% the monthly price increase, and not an interest increase? That is a lease, not a loan. If it were a loan, wouldn't that be compound interest? heck, my electric company went up 3% in the last 6 months. I'd be happy to be locked in for the next 15 years.

and if it weren't for tax incentives to the utilities, there would be no
way they would or could extend those rates, a corporation just cannot extend the capital in some many directions with such a locked in
low rate of return,, not and keep its stock holders happy.
Yeah they got to make a profit. If I had a convenience store I would have to make a 40% profit to pay my rent insurance etc. Everybody complains when my electric cooperative makes millions in profits, but hey don't think what it costs to put in a substation or how much it costs to put in just one of those big towers. I got no love lost for the power companies, but I like having that meter hooked up in case my roid is down waiting for parts. Nobody has to use them either. local codes may say you have to have electricity, but nowhere does it say you have to buy it from the power company.

It's like taxes, Most people don't like to pay taxes, but I don't. I don't need a big fancy house or new car or big income so my taxes for the year run about 800 to 1,000 dollars a year. For that I got police and an ambulance standing by if I want to call for them. I get paved roads and a hospital. I got the best country in the world to live in and the best military in the world to protect me. Is there anybody out there that can offer me a better deal? This year I had a little extra so I sent a $100 donation with my taxes. The same goes fort he electric company, you are not forced to use them, but they are nice and handy. You don't have to change oil, make fuel or do repairs, but you have to pay for that and they have to make enough money for incentive for them to show up to work in the mornings and to maintain their equipment.

I knew I liked you the first time I checked your web site Mr. Bodell, we think very much alike (caution, that may make some here not like you !!

Don't forget that a lot of the banking mess we are in was due to banks attempting to make loans more available.  This at the direction of the federal government.  Basically they were told it was ok to make loans to people who really couldn't afford them...

Voodoo economics never works well for very long...

This is called the "community reinvestment act". Started under Jimmy Carter & "doubled down" on under Bill Clinton. Basically Banks were told they WILL make these loans or they will be "investigated" "regulated" & slandered in the media (a willing accomplice). Most banks refused until the Governmennt (the cause of most problems) said they would insure the loans thru Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac. the banks came up with the mortgage backed securities to help insulate themselves from what they knew was going to eventually happen. Even after our recent melt down this is still going on, Just listen to Blarney Frank or Maxine Waters any time they are speaking. I would have posted some youtube vid of barney & maxine talking about how safe freddie & fannie are in 2004,but youtube isnot working for me right now.  if you like to see them go to you tube & put in barney frank fannie mae 2004 hearings.

Scott R.
Now back on topic, i feel any time your cooking greenies it's a good thing, i like mine well done