Purchased a Changfa R165 watercooled diesel engine, question about flywheel play

[Jesse McB]

I received another package today for my engine  its the flex exhaust pipe walker 40000 25ft of 1" ID flex pipe. I got it on amazon only place i can find it! And i only needed a couple feet so i guess i got lots extra! This will be used to have the muffler located off the engine.

[Jesse McB]

Finally Im putting the engine mount together!  Assembling the water cooling system and will soon be making the water stop plate and the alternator brackets. Next week ill buy the alternator! Im waitng for a few more parts and to arrive to complete the cooling system. I will be uploading more soon as this projects finally getting finished! I spent over a grand in this project and it still needs more haha! Alternator and some paint a few small gadgets and the projects finished! 

[Jesse McB]

R165 engine mount cooling system

[Jesse McB]

Today the engine thermostate arrived in the mail, i thought it was lost i bought it over 3 months ago from china and it just arrive today lol! I even got a refund back for it so i guess i got it for free! Im really happy becuase it will fit perfectly to the engine. It has the right space between the cylinder, and enouph space for the fan senor switch and heat guage sensor, i will post pictures later tonite and also the steps required to finish the water cooling system. I have eveything ready all i need is an angle grinder to cut the water stop plate from the peice of 3/8 scrap steel i recovered from tearing down old cattle stables.

For the cooling system i purchased all new parts, 12volt 4 inch radiator cooling fan, 195 to 210f npt fan shutoff sensor and relay kit, small compact dirtbike radiator, 5/8 radiator hose, thermostate, engine temp gauge with npt heat sensor,  12v heat resistant water pump, tap and drill kit for the npt connections. Im excited this is my first time doing a big project on an engine so this is really fun!

A question lol, do i need a overflow tank for the radiator?  

[mobile_bob]

"A questions lol, do i need a overflow tank for the radiator?  "

yes!  i would sure recommend an overflow tank, that is if the radiator is made to use a cap that has the ability to suck the water from the overflow back up into the radiator when it cools down.

if you fill the system, and when it gets hot the water will expand, and in doing so will exit the radiator into the overflow
tank if you have one, or on the floor without the tank.

if it cannot be sucked back up when cool the water level will be low in the system.

set it up so that when you have the system completely full there is some water in the overflow, that way  you have an indication when cool how much water is in the system... if the tank level drops when cold below the minimum line you know you have a leak somewhere and must add water.

the little engine and tiny radiator will have a combined capacity of less than a gallon total, likely about 2 quarts, so you really cannot afford to lose much water without having an issue.

another case for overheat shutdown protection, but that is another matter.


bob g

[glort]

Just in case you are not aware, You don't need a specific "Overflow Bottle".  I have used an old plastic Coke Bottle for years on my truck in place of the original which was in the way of adding a 2nd battery.  All you do need is the proper radiator cap with the return function and the hose from the radiator neck going to the bottom of the bottle.
There is also no correct height to fill the bottle. On my wife and Daughters cars I just fill the bottle and the radiator Full when I do check them or top them with coolant.  Any excess just pushes out and the system finds it's own level.  I'm not really worried about a bit of water pushing out the first time the thing hits temp. Only does it the once then it has it's level and all good. Just keep it at that level which should only require infrequent top ups for evaporation.

The bottle can be below the radiator neck, no specific height either as long as the hose on the neck is sealed to it so there are no air leaks.

You can also instead of a radiator/ pressurised system use a large header tank if this will be a permanent install or all mounted together.  I tend to favour this system because it's NOT under pressure. On my lister setup I have a "T" in the top hose to the radiator near the highest point. The hose goes straight through the T to the radiator and the other leg goes up to a 25L drum of water sitting well above the engine.  The drum has no cap and is open to atmosphere. This bleeds out all air from the engine cooling system and if there is a small leak, there is loads of water to keep the engine cool and let me notice.  It's surprising how hot the drum gets. The hot water really seems to rise with much more Vigor than I would have credited. The water in the radiator still gets hot but I only have one electric car fan running through a tail light globe as a resistor to cool it down and then it tends to over cool as well.

I would think there is a good chance a car radiator set at about a 45oTilt may not even need a fan on an engine the size of what you have when set up with a header tank. The surface area of the radiator itself would pass a lot of heat and if you had some sort of ducting convection would do the rest.  Other thing would be if you blew the exhaust  at the radiator from some distance away, that would cool substantially and create enough airflow to keep the thing cool but not cool so far as a fan sucking cold air.

[Jesse McB]

Thanks for the tips guys!  

Heres a few pics of the engines updated water cooling system, im still not finished, the extra metal is for the alternator mount!  i still have to install the fan heat sensor and engine temp sensor, they are both npt drill and tap, i  will write more info tommorow on how i made this water stop plate.  All i used was a few drill bits a carbide hole saw, angle grinder, and a scrap peice of steel  

[Jesse McB]

R165 Diesel engine custom Water stop plate

[Thob]

Looking at the pictures, it appears that the top radiator hose goes above the radiator cap before entering the engine.  That will make it difficult to get the system full of water and purge the air out.  Remember that water won't run uphill.  You may have to either tilt the engine up on the radiator end or provide a fill port at the highest point.

[buickanddeere]

Coolant system needs to be setup so that water will thermosyphon through it even of the water pump isn't functioning.

[Jesse McB]

Thanks for the advice guys i was thinking the same thing, maybe if i just raise the radiator up high it would work, ill figure this out ! 

[mobile_bob]

if one is to take the forward step of a radiator, with a fan, a pump, tstat, recovery bottle and all the other regalia, why would he think it necessary to take a step back in his design thinking of going to a thermosiphon setup?

if the pump quits, it is going to be very difficult to get water past the impeller to maintain adequate flow for themosiphon to work.

in my thinking, and bare in mind this is my opinion only, i would not design in a failsafe to thermosiphon with such a small volume cooling system, far better to include any number of failsafe systems to simply shut the engine down should the engine coolant temp exceed a certain value.

but then again, i am of the camp that has little affinity for thermosiphon systems, even though the KISS principle is seductive in its simplicity, it is not without its own set of issues. issues which ought to have a failsafe to shutdown if the engine overheats as well.

bottom line is if one has an electric pump, electric fan, temp switches and all the other stuff, whats the problem with adding a bit more wire and a shutdown solenoid?

again, fwiw.

bob g

[glort]

but then again, i am of the camp that has little affinity for thermosiphon systems, even though the KISS principle is seductive in its simplicity, it is not without its own set of issues. issues which ought to have a failsafe to shutdown if the engine overheats as well.

The little experience I have with thermo Syphon being my one roid engine has given me bit of a liking of it at least in a stationary environment which I seem to recall now is not the OP's plan in mind.
I like the idea of a non pressurized system that is way over capacity both in cooling ability and volume for the engine attached.
Playing with the roid, I was also quite amazed at how well the heater water rose and circulated. It was way beyond what I expected but I did do all I could to make sure things were as well setup for it as my reading lead me to believe was correct.
I'll probably go the thermo route again when I set the roid up in it's new digs for no other reason than I liked the way it worked, how well it worked and the simplicity thereof.

bottom line is if one has an electric pump, electric fan, temp switches and all the other stuff, whats the problem with adding a bit more wire and a shutdown solenoid?

I only made comment on the other forum earlier this week that a bit of " Complication" is not a bad thing and can greatly improve the capeabilitys and well being of our old time  toys.

I have spoken before about using electric fans on radiators and there is certainly a position of fear from amny about the chance of that fan failing and causing engine damage.  Well yeah, tell me what doesn't have a chance of failing?
Reality is though that these fans are incredibly reliable in the real wold and last for literally tens of years.  I Have got them 20+ years old and run them 24/7 over  now 4 Summers and I'm still using the same unit.  I couldn't count the hours its done but I'll bet it would give out old faithful engines a run for their money.  Still, many, maybe the majority of people would throw their hands in the air with them claiming the dangers if they stop.
Personaly, I'd be a hell of a lot more worried about the hose carrying the coolant failing then the fans I use off vehicles.

Same with electric pumps and other things. look at the service they give in their intended applications in vehicles or as domestic hot water circulation pumps.  How many years do they run without problem and how many hours does that add up to?
Now, how many hours are you going to run that engine per year?

It's like something I worked out years ago with my Contractor mates commercial quality Lawn mowers. The average person here mows their lawn about 15 times a year on average. My mate mows an average of 10 lawns a day.
Given the amount of lawns he mows with his machines, they would last the average person about 150 years PLUS!.... if they serviced them properly like he does which her average person doesn't come close to.

I'm reminded of the Mindset among the Veg oil/ Biodiesel  users and their mentality. Always trying to find fuel hose that will last an eternity and pay stupid  $$ for it.
Myself, I use the cheap shit. It testing with careful observation, I know I can get at LEAST 18 Months out of it..... So I change it every 12.
When I do my Major service between Christmas/ new year where I do the diff and trans oils and all that other infrequent stuff, I spend the princely sum of $4 on the Vinyl reinforced hose and change out the 18 " or so of it that's on the vehicle between the hard lines.  Never had a problem with that in the over 10 years since I adopted the policy.
It's just like the aircraft servicing mentality. Change it out BEFORE it fails and at relatively short terms. Don't try and get forever out of it, change it short of it's service life and be happy.

If one were running there engine every day and relied on it, A fan from the wreckers for $20 would not be any great yearly expense nor would an electric pump, hoses or anything else.  For those engines run for the fun of it, chances are things are going to last longer than we will so whats the worry??

AND.... I agree with what you say, just add in a failsafe. A switch that shuts the engine down if it goes over temp or over speed or whatever else.  Put in a backup and you are fine.
I'm looking at automating one of my veg oil burners to shut down when the water it is heating comes up to temp.  My soloution will be to run 2 temp switches in parallel. If either one of them senses the water is up to temp, it switches out. If one sticks, I still have backup. If both should fail, then the double relief valves will activate and the cool water coming in will keep the tank from building up steam even if the system does cycle till the burner runs out of fuel.....  which with a small " Day" tank will be yet another fallback.

I think with everything there is like a 20+ year lag between opinion and reality.  Old misnomers that are long out of date tend to get repeated and perpetuated long after in many cases they become laughable.
One thing I come into contact with this a lot is with cars.  can't tell you how many people will come in in a month and rubbish automatic cars as being weak, unreliable, expensive to repair and using gallons more fuel than a manual.
The reality is that autos have wiped the floor with manuals for getting on for 20 years. They have wiring looms connecting them to the engine and cars computer so they work as efficently as possible. Autos are bullet proof and will take far more power and abuse than manuals generally and need nothing like the maintenance and servicing. I take these people round the side and show them the pile of auto transmissions we have and frequently the heap of them sitting on the pile for the scrappy. I then show them the waiting list we have for people wanting manuals.  I ask them why do you think we sell 1-2 autos a year that at least one is a mis diagnosis and can't get our hands on enough manuals to satisfy demand.  I then tell them to go look at new car numbers on the net and see that many autos are now doing BETTER mileage than manuals.

Same goes for electronic controls, injection etc. Nope, when it came out 30 years ago it was flakey so there is no possibility it could have improved over the years so it still much be the same.
Korean cars are looked at the same way. Nope, they were crap when they came out and they could not have possibly learnt anything in all these years and improved them, they are still crap....despite the fact they offer the longest warranties and owners that have had them 10 years say they haven't had an ounce of trouble and would buy another one without thinking twice.

Still, there are some people you can't convince and will stick with their incorrect position I think in many cases rather that change their minds or admit they were wrong.

I think there is a LOT to be gained by applying modern technology, systems and methods to our old and basic Chuggers and those really concerned about reliability are doing themselves a dis service by hanging onto the old mindsets.  The modern ( 10-20 yr yo modern) technology leaves the old 50+ tech for dead when it comes to reliability and dependence especially in what we are doing and can do with it.

[mobile_bob]

Glort and all...

please don't take offense to my comments, i mean no ill will toward anyone and especially none against differing design
philosophies.

my point is slanted likely toward the closed system, because of the following

1. chp use only
2. intermittent operation
3. tight operating parameters
4. controlled operation parameters

given these, the thermosiphon design really doesn't fair well against one that is both closed, and using electric pumps, fans, and all the other stuff.

there is much to be said for thermosiphon systems, when given more room, long run hours, and simplicity are the main concerns.

in an intermittent operation system, one needs a quite small capacity cooling system that is both closed and controlled, so that warm up time is as small as possible to aide in clean exhaust, lower component wear, and in my experience better overall efficiencies.

with the onerous guidelines we have given to us here in the usa, (epa) my thinking is we simply must think more toward closed systems and intermittent operations in tightly controlled conditions so as to limit the emissions as much as possible while trying as hard as possible to get maximum efficiency.

to be honest "if" i were out in the sticks, had a supply of alternate fuel, i might well operate with a simple system using thermosiphon systems.... lets face it the lister/oid really is most at home using this sort of design.

the changfa types while being at home with thermosiphon designs really are quite well adapted to being used in a much more modern closed system design, and in reality the efficiency gains are significant enough that at least for me are of large enough to warrant a much more complex system.

going from about ~8kw/hr/gallon pump diesel to very very near 10kw/hr/gallon sure gets my attention, on top of the ability of being able to burn alternate fuels cleanly at the higher operating temperatures combine to be a very seductive attraction to me.

but that is just me.

and again my hope is not to stifle any others thinking in any way.

having seen Jack Belk's operation of a 6hp listeroid at magic hotsprings some ten years ago, (many remember him as "magicjack"  he did very very well with thermosiphon, as has George B of utterpower fame, and many others in canada and all over the world are evidence of just how effective and useful this design philosophy really is.

however just how many car's, trucks, and all manor of stationary engines operating over the better part of the last century provide evidence that closed systems need not be trouble prone, certainly no more so that thermosiphon systems.

probably 100 times more engines over as many years have operated successfully with simple closed systems, fan/stat/radiator and little maintenance.

so i guess we can argue either philosophy and so so reasonably and with equal success?

bob g

[mobile_bob]

fan motors failing? hmmm

the condenser unit sitting in my back yard has been working it ass off since '74 and i finally had to change out the fan motor
last month... what is that, 43 years?  with plain brgs!  wow

my s195 trigen at full operating capacity, putting out around 8kw electric, its fan that is used to cool the radiator when the heat load demand has been met, will cycle on for 45 seconds out of every 3 minutes of operation... it is out of a nissan sentra vintage '87.... so it was 30 years old when i got the wrecked car and pulled the radiator, fan, temp switches and other goodies... my bet is that fan motor would run in cogen operation for another 30 years because it is sitting out in cool air and not under the hood and between the radiator and engine of a car.

people in my opinion get far too worried about component failure,

a well designed system has the failsafe in place, using positive logic controls... loose power and the engine shuts down.

which means the fuel solenoid has to have power to enable the engine to run, any break in the solenoid control relay circuit equates to engine shutting down immediately.  too hot =shut down, broken wire= shut down, loss of power=shutdown, loss of oil pressure= shutdown... anything you can dream up to break the circuit =shutdown. and by that i mean shutdown immediately,  which means far faster than is humanly possible even if you are sitting at the switch watching the gauges.

with the oem's making all manor of pumps, fans, controls, sensors, switches, relays etc.... at very competitive prices.. made to last for thousands of hours in very inhospitable environments under the hood of the typical car/truck or whatever... its hard for me to imagine a real argument against the use of these things.

worry about component longevity?  check your local wrecking yard.... if you see a particular part missing of a specific car type then maybe there is a large demand for that specific part and it has poor reliability?  on the other had if the place is swimming in a particular fan or pump... and they are cheap as dirt, it is likely there is little or no demand which likely equates to a part being very reliable?

no if you are looking at a yugo all bets are off 

however most japanese car parts, gm, ford, and most german cars i have found the used parts to be very reliable

even the bosch auxilliary heater pumps as used by vw, audi, mercedes and probably many others back in the 80's at least
have been exceptionally reliable..... even those i have bought where the system is full of stopleak or somesuch, full of rust
and stuck impeller, rusted off case screws, i have drilled out and replaced the screws, cleaned the pump impeller and body and they go right back to work and i have had only one that had a minor drip leak when running , but only up till the water got hot then it would quit the little drip...

no i didn't use that particular pump, but i would if i didn't have another and i would not worry about coolant loss, even though my system is only 1 gallon in capacity! why?   because if the coolant gets low and the engine gets over 220f the system shuts the fuel solenoid down which = engine shutdown..

for those that are thinking about or worrying about coolant loss, and overheating

there is a sensor that turns on a low coolant light.... that sensor can be used to trigger the system to shutdown
it can also be used to not allow the engine to startup (if autostart) should the coolant level be low in the overflow tank/bottle.

it is so easy to add multiple layers of protection, and do so very economically.

how many of us turn our wife or kid loose with a car to go on an extended trip?  we all know they typically never look at the gauges even if they are there to look at!   and somehow these cars get from a to b, and back again? over and over, year after year, and i know of no car that has a shutdown system to protect the engine.

i don't know about most folks but my car is worth a bit more than my changfa!  so if i trust the car, why would i worry about some component failure on my cogen unit?

we are after all in the 21st century! 

hmmm maybe we can develop an app for the smartphone to keep tabs on the engine while we are gone? 
we get a text message if things are going wrong!  ya that's the ticket!

bob g