Purchased a Changfa R165 watercooled diesel engine, question about flywheel play

[mobile_bob]

that will work fine, are you planning to install a tstat?

if so, go with a 195F stat, and drill a 1/16" hole in the perimeter of the state housing plate
then insert a small cotter pin in the hole, bend and clip the legs short and leave it so it vibrates around
as the engine runs... this keeps the little bleed hole open and allows just a bit of coolant to bypass and pass
any trapped air and also allow for better water mix at the tstat bulb.  having a bit of bypass is helpful for the pump as well.

i would also highly recommend an electric fan with a 205F temp switch, this way the cooling system under load will be regulated by the fan and radiator and not the tstat opening and closing or running partly open loading the little pump.. in my opinion it is preferable to have the stat fully open and having the pump not having much of any restriction on it (both will last longer) and let the fan cycle on and off as needed to regulate the coolant temps...  mine cuts on at 214F and off at 205F and the tstat being a 195F is fully open all the time the engine is running after it come up to temp the first time.

all of these bits and pieces can be found in a decent salvage yard.

also for what it is worth,,, the bosch pumps are not too bad in price new, used maybe 7 bucks or so at a pic-a-part yard
and even if they leak a bit, if you take the pump apart and clean the thing up (usually corrosion on the seal) they seem to seal up and do just fine once up to temperature.

another thought comes to mind, because of the limited volume of coolant in your proposed system, consider an overflow tank and hook it up so that the radiator cap can expel coolant as it expands when hot, and such it back up when the engine cools down. another junkyard part.

7lb cap is fine in my opinion, although i think you could use a 14lb cap without problems, i just haven't seen the need to have that much pressure.  more pressure allows for hotter temps, but 205-214F with 50/50 mix seems to work just fine at max loading, so why have more pressure?  more pressure might keep more of the coolant from going to the overflow tank, but i see no real advantage and figure why put things under more stress.

if this was a s-195 idi engine, i would also tell you to remove and toss the oem headgasket in favor of the copper sandwich s-1100 DI gasket... this is a great upgrade.  the oem fiber metal core s-195 gskt will fail if the temps get over about 240F
(don't ask me how i know this) and the 1100 gskt is really a good looking option, it looks like a first world gskt as opposed to a gasket you might think someone cut out of a cereal box.

another thought while i am on a role

the little bosch pump that i use,  is of course a 12vdc unit, and it is ample enough to handle perhaps 20-22hp, and likely is more than the little 165 needs (not that it will hurt anything) you might install a power resistor and lower the voltage to the pump and by doing so reduce the flow rate?  probably unnecessary, but the pump might well last longer?  not that they have a short life anyway, many i have pulled are out of 20 plus year old cars, being original equipment with 200k plus miles on the clock and really crappy coolant systems loaded with stop leaks and rust... and the pumps have all worked just fine.

i for one am excited about your project!  the little 165 us just too cool in my opinion

bob g

[Thob]

Another idea to use instead of a thermostat is to control the DC water pump.  Could be as simple as on at 195, radiator fan on at 205.  Or variable speed if a micro controller is your cup of tea.  Just be sure you're measuring temperature where it gets hot when the pump isn't running.

[Jesse McB]

Thanks for your ideas guys!   im gonna show some pics of the gear that came in from ebay! Im still waiting for more stuff, i like the ideas im getting from everyone its making me do alot of thinking! I purchased a thermostat  it hasnt arrived yet, but i do like the idea of the pump being regulated by temparture. But now im thinking it may work with thermosiphyon? I will show some pictures of some ideas!

[mobile_bob]

the engine will work with thermosiphon, if setup right, however
in my opinion you won't get near the output from the engine because thermosiphon is not as effective
as a pump system with radiator, fan and all the other stuff.

reason being you will develop hot spots, steam pockets etc, things that don't happen as easily with a pump driven coolant.

don't let the added complexity of an enclosed, pump driven, radiator/tstat and all the other stuff rule your thinking
or worry you about the added complexity leading to a less reliable system.

yes there are a few more parts, and yes it is a bit more complex, however the technology is very mature and reliable
and if you plan on working the engine up near max output the added control is going to assure a long lived setup.

thermosiphon systems are very simple, that is if setup right, however in my opinion they are much more difficult to setup correctly for varying loading, varying temperatures (ambient) and because the little engine holds so little water, you will have to have reservoirs of added coolant to assure safety. more water means much longer warm up periods, longer warm up equals more engine wear, so getting the thermosiphon tank sized properly of what you need can be problematic and an exercise in much testing.

lots of folks use the method and have done well, but...

for instance the s195 is rated at 12hp continuous with its oem thermosiphon/hopper cooling... the 12 hp continuous limit is limited by the cooling system, not the mechanical capability of the engine... the engine is capable of near 15hp with an enclosed tstat/pump/rad/fan controlled system.

so i guess it depends on what you want to do and what your needs really are, maybe the 165 is good for 3.5hp with hopper cooling, and maybe that is enough for your needs, maybe you can size a hopper with enough water to allow for good thermosiphon operation for your intended use, or...  maybe you find you would like to get 4 plus hp out of the engine?

in my way of thinking, simple has its place, but is highly over rated... simple is rarely as simple as some would have you to believe.

* yes i am a proponent of the enclosed, pump/tstat, fan/radiator system.

bob g

[playdiesel]

  My 1115/15KW stand by is set up with a fan switch and works to perfection.  I have built two others and also work perfectly.  Unlike engines that were made for thermosyphon cooling such as  the CS Lister the Chinese horizontals do not over circulate when you remove the hopper and add a plate. The engine will warm up fast with out a 'stat.  My switch turns on at 200 and off at 180 and will kick the fan on within 10 minutes of starting when placed under any load at all.  You need to set them up so the heated water going to the radiator comes from the cylinder head end of the plate. Likewise the return goes towards the crankshaft. You also need a short length of pipe under the plate on the return side. This assures the correct direction of circulation at ll times, without it you will find that at start up the system will occasionally try to circulate backwards and things can get REAL hot before correct circulation happens.  If it were me I would dispense with both pump and thermostat as unneeded items.

[AdeV]

Hey Bob, a question for you...

I'm on the verge of actually being able to buy a '195 Changfa clone (Changfoid?) and have it imported in the UK. Fricking nightmare, what with the EU and its socialist rules... but anyway, that's a whole nother rant....

Engine is rated 12hp continuous. It's hopper cooled.

I plan to hoik the hopper off, and plumb it into a pressurised radiator system. I'll give it its own t-stat. Thing is, the system it'll be attached to is the cooling system for my bus - think 466cu/in diesel engine - so quite a large system. Depending on whether we just drove somewhere or not, the bus coolant might be hot, it might not be.

So, here's what's probably going to happen. I'll fire up the genny. The t'stat will open when the water in the engine gets hot, which will then pump out & be replaced by, potentially, cold water. Presumably the t-stat will now close & the whole cycle will repeat... I can't imagine this will be healthy for the engine; should I consider some other way of plumbing it?

[mobile_bob]

Ade:

i will make a couple assumptions (usually getting myself into trouble in doing so)

your genny project which you plan to share the motorhome cooling system, the genny will be running while the motorhome
is parked and not running?

if this is so, then the engine (466) is not driving a fan, so maybe you connect a small electric fan to take the heat away from the radiator after the thing gets up to temp?

the larger radiator will take a while longer to come up to temp, however without airflow from the vehicle moving or the 466 fan drive sucking in air, i think it  would work just fine.

yes the engine will warm up and the tstat will begin to open, as it opens some of the cooler radiator water will start to get into the cylinder and mix, the tstat will then close off and heat up that batch... i don't think it will ever fully open until such time as the engine and radiator get over 195F or whatever your tstat is on the chanfa/oid.

i would just expect it to take maybe 20 minutes or so at full load before the electric fan kicks on to remove some of the heat from the radiator, that is at 70F ambient temps... a bit sooner on a 100F day and substantially longer on below freezing days.

playdiesel makes a good point in that the radiator and fan out to be enough to regulate the engine temperatures so there is no need for a tstat "provided" that the radiator and the rest of the cooling system is sized so that the engine can come up to a reasonable operating temperature as quickly as possible and not run cold with an oversize cooling system for any longer than is necessary.

my 195 at full load will come up to full operating temperature (first stage tstat controlled) at 195F in around 3minutes of startup, and then up to full and stable operation (cycling fan) from 205-214F in about 10 minutes iirc, (i may be off a couple minutes or so).

the point being is (for me at least) is to get the engine up to temp as quickly as possible,  cold temps operation accelerate wear and also tend toward a smokey exhaust.

back in the early days of the forums, there were many 6/1's running on 55 gallon siphon systems, and i often wondered just how long it took to get up to anywhere near a reasonable temperature?

my exhaust exchanger harvests the heat from full load output of 640F and exhausts at 240F on a 70F day.  that exchanger takes right at one hour to make 65 gallons of 145F water (starting from 70F water) my bet is the cooling system would do no better (at least not much if at all)  point being a siphon system with a 55gal capacity would be horrible mismatched in my opinion for a 12hp changfa (even if running at 15hp output)  so i am left to wonder how much wear a lister/oid might have to endure trying to get that much water up to temp on a basic thermosiphon system... maybe that is why most folks adapted a tstat to there systems?

i guess it all comes down to what one wants/needs/can tolerate?   there really is no "one" right way to do anything i suppose?

my point is to think through all the options and maybe do a pro/con analysis before you build, and figure out what makes sense, and... don't get spooked away from a full on modern system as being overly complex and anti KISS. Modern systems are very mature and developed with very low failure rates, surely no more prone to failure than any other method.

my opinion only

bob g

[Jesse McB]

I gotta post some pis of my hardware i purchased   i got a 12v water pump, all the brass attachments, NPT drill and tap kits, heat gauges fans switch rely kit. Radiator from a dirt bike,  muffler,  1" exhuast flex pipe, i have a t stat but the engines to small to fit i ill show some pics soon  why, and i rather have a screw tight connection with a NPT barbed fitting. The cold water input is simple for the R165, the water drain port is big enouph for these engines, i got a brass fitting for it already to attach  a 5/8 heater hose. Ill make a stop plate to replace the hopper with 3/8 piece of steel, and drill tap three 3/8"  npt for hot water outlet, fan sensor ans heat gauge. Ok ill be posting more soon With pictures! I been waiting for more equipment to finish my diesel engine, i still gotta buy paint,  a mini alternator for fan, water pump, fuel pump, torque wrench and build a frame for it to sit on. Yeap lots to do still!    

[mike90045]

.......
back in the early days of the forums, there were many 6/1's running on 55 gallon siphon systems, and i often wondered just how long it took to get up to anywhere near a reasonable temperature?........

I've using a automotive gas tank, all the holes brazed up, and it's hanging from the rafters with an end sliced off. holds about 20 gal.   When charging batteries I'm using about 2700watts into the batteries.  The exit pipe of a 6/1 takes about 10 min to warm up, 30 min to get the top couple inches of the tank warm, and if I stir the tank with a stick, it takes about 90 min to get the whole 20 gal up to about 170F.   90 min is also when the batteries are usually full and I'm done charging.
Also, with this mode of operation, I burn a bit over a quart of fuel an hour (red diesel with some 2-stroke oil in it)

[playdiesel]

What Bob said about sizing the components is spot on. My first 1115 installation was just an experienced guess and it all worked out OK.  I use the same set up on a couple 195/ 10KW sets. Radiator is mid 90s Geo Metro (about $40 new) and fan temp switch is from same. I remove the spring and seal from the cap so the make up water can come and go from the overflow tube. Somewhat fuzzy pic is of my stand by set.  My concerns with a 'stat is not gulping as they do not work like a light switch being on or off, they work incrementally beginning to open at a certain temp and fully open at a higher temp, same as things coold down. My concern with a 'stat is knowing how they are made and dealing with vibration over long periods. 

[Jesse McB]

What Bob said about sizing the components is spot on. My first 1115 installation was just an experienced guess and it all worked out OK.  I use the same set up on a couple 195/ 10KW sets. Radiator is mid 90s Geo Metro (about $40 new) and fan temp switch is from same. I remove the spring and seal from the cap so the make up water can come and go from the overflow tube. Somewhat fuzzy pic is of my stand by set.  My concerns with a 'stat is not gulping as they do not work like a light switch being on or off, they work incrementally beginning to open at a certain temp and fully open at a higher temp, same as things coold down. My concern with a 'stat is knowing how they are made and dealing with vibration over long periods.  

Is this a thermosyphome system?  Nice setup! im hoping my waterpump and 5/8 heater hose arrives so i can have good pictures of the cooling system setup i though off. i still have to buy a grinder and some discs and cut out a stop plate, also for a strong design the stop plate will include a bracket for the mini alternator. It will work great i have a good feeling   Now i have one thing on my mind which was mentioned here by a fellow member, that the engine is so small the 12 water pump may circulate water to fast, the pumps flow rate is 8 litres per minute, i imagine the engines cooling systems water capacity with the radiator would be less then a litre. So it would circulate 9 or 10 times a minute, is that way to fast lol??  

[Jesse McB]

Heres a few pictures of the steel pieces to use for the water stop plate with the 3/8 NPT tap and 37/64 drillbit, the size of the radiator with the engine, and also a pic of the brass 5/8 barbed water return were the drain port once was.

[veggie]

Hey Guys,

One useful gadget for your cooling systems is this in-line temperature sensor/gauge adaptor.
In this case the ad is for a 1" (26mm) version.
Not very expensive at all.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/26MM-Water-Temp-Gauge-Radiator-Sensor-Aluminum-Adapter-Clamp-BL-/252537503945?fits=Submodel%3APulse&hash=item3acc6880c9:g:5NUAAOSwMHdXRmPI&vxp=mtr

They can also be used to place an inline sensor for something like an Arduino or Raspberry PI in order to control fans and high temp shutdown relays.

Veggie

[Jesse McB]

Heres a few pics of my cooling system,   i need to build the top plate for the engine, im waiting for a 3/8 NPT to 5/8 barb brass connector for the water outlet, it be here soon got it on eBay from china. So heres what my setup will look like, im not using a thermostate the engines top plate is to small for the one i ordered anyways, it will regulate heat with the thermal fan switch, its a 195 to 210 F fan switch that will be on the water stop plate. You can see the small hot water pump, its 12v rated to last 40,000 hours amd with stand 110 c water. It has a ceramic shaft and brush less waterproof design for $20 new from china, built good i use these pumps before they even work for waste oil. I like how i manage to figure to have the radiator low profile i dont want the system big i want it compact and simple. I made it so it goes around the fuel injector and air intake. Im going to build the engines frame tommorow with wood becuase its easy to work with, and i work with new houses so wood materials are free . I may use a few small sections of 2x4 and rig up some wheels and make it moblie like a small wagon   you can see i used 2 Elbows pieces to direct the 5/8 heater hose so it wont cink, it works great! Of course ill be using hose clamps just not till the engines mount is made which will be happening this week!   i also purchased a 25 foot roll of 1" ID exhaust flex pipe ill be using to attach a silent muffler, these engine are indeed very quiet like a car engine if the right muffler is used,  i did it once with my R170 diesel. Im also using 1.25 ID vacum cleaner tubing to relocate the air cleaner under the engine.  

[Jesse McB]

More pics of cooling system for the little pixy R165 Diesel engine