1115 thermal cyphon cooling question

[dmarkh]

I see a picture of an exhaust stack inside a generator shack ?

The picture is my set,

Ah, that clears that up.

Mark

[buickanddeere]

I see a picture of an exhaust stack inside a generator shack ?

The picture is my set,

If I had stepped back 2" when I took that pic you could see the door jam for one of two 5 foot doors on the front of the shed that are kept wide open when the set is being used. The muffler is about 12" from one of the doors when closed. The eves of the shed are also opened up when it runs. That combined with the breezes created by the ST fan, the flywheel, belts and cooling fan  the engine is little different than being outside. A known problem with the China engines is breaking of the exhaust elbows or the four flimsy bolts that attach it to the head after some home brewed exhaust system is hung on it.   I am not real smart, but far from stupid, kinda in between actually.

That is better than it looks but............... I've spent enough time using a Draeger at work to sample CO2, CO, O2, LEL, H2S etc.  Knowing that  the affinity between hemoglobin and carbon monoxide is approximately 230 times stronger than the affinity between hemoglobin and oxygen so hemoglobin binds to carbon monoxide in preference to oxygen.
   I've found dangerous levels of CO around diesels and gas turbines in ventilated buildings and outside of the same buildings.
   The adverse feelings after extended driving and worse yet being stuck in traffic. Is very often unrecognized CO poisoning.
   Exposure to >25ppm causes problem in healthy non smoking adults. Exposure to 500ppm, which still isn't very much and you are buzzard bait in a few hours. A few breaths at 10,000+ppm which is 1+% and you will be dead by the time you hit the floor. 

[playdiesel]

Sorry but there there just isnt a problem to deal with here other than a wrong conclusion based upon a misleading  picture and your assumptions. There is a reason the gen set was placed 75' down wind from the house in its own little shed,,, I don't live in there. A person opens the doors and eves, starts the set and leaves, then returns to shut it down. Once a month to test it and whenever the power is out,,

      gesh

[vdubnut62]

Must work for OSHA.
Ron.

[buickanddeere]

Must work for OSHA.
Ron.

The rules are there because a long line of fools ignorant of the laws of physics killing themselves or others. Plus they were more intent on getting the job done the quickest, easiest and fastest way taking priority over the proper way.
 Like it or not CO is toxic.
 You seem to think you are  too tough to be affected by CO ?
   It appears that you have never pulled up to the scene and found several coworkers or family members all laying dead in the same tank, pit, sump , camper trailer or room?
   

[Tom Reed]

From what I've been taught at the fire dpt, repeated exposure to CO will cause hardening of the arteries. So even if it doesn't kill you right away, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

[vdubnut62]

Must work for OSHA.
Ron.

The rules are there because a long line of fools ignorant of the laws of physics killing themselves or others. Plus they were more intent on getting the job done the quickest, easiest and fastest way taking priority over the proper way.
 Like it or not CO is toxic.
 You seem to think you are  too tough to be affected by CO ?
  It appears that you have never pulled up to the scene and found several coworkers or family members all laying dead in the same tank, pit, sump , camper trailer or room?
 

You Sir know nothing at all about me, my experience, upbringing, education, financial status or personality. That is the second time you have called me a fool. You also intimated on
another post that I am a "Bubba" and are unwilling to spend the money to do things "your" correct way.  And no, it is a fatal mistake to consider one's "too tough to be affected by CO".
You have no idea what systems I now have in place or plan to implement in the future.
    I was under the impression that we are all here to learn from each other and the collective minds contained here in these discussion groups.

I do not have the time nor the inclination to re-learn the childish name calling that I outgrew in grade school. I expected you to have at least a modest sense of humor, it seems that I have made a mistake.
Ron

[buickanddeere]

  If you are not taking stringent control of exhaust gasses, then sadly yes. You would be a foolish Bubba.

[Ronmar]

So stringent control of exhaust gasses on an engine running out in the open(or a shed with roof and door panels opened) would be acomplished how?  I don't think anyone here will disregard the need for adequate air exchange...

You two need to kick it down a notch or two and get back onto the topic of this thread! 

[buickanddeere]

   The exhaust gases shall be routed in a manner that  with no regard to wind direction or windows/doors being open or closed. Human habitation in or around the structure and the ICE is not exposed to over 25ppm of CO.

[dmarkh]

Back on topic, I'm sure I've corrected my problem with not being able to drive the 2.5 ton AC. Every connection in the inlet box and to the panel was bad. But as I was about to hook it up, to prove it to myself, I noticed once again, for the second time now, I did not have a thermalsyphon going. Surley the TS had opened by then. The temp was 214 so I gently just shut it down. I ordered a pump and 6lb rad cap on friday and should have it all today. I'm going to go ahead and plumb it in and do as bob suggested and put at least one 1/8" hole in the TS with a cotter pin in it. I may get it done this week. I sure hope that bosch pump can push the water up from the bottom of the cyl and then that 4 ft of hose coming out the plate up to the rad?

Mark

[buickanddeere]

 Thermosyphon requires two different densities of coolant to operate.
   How are the rad inlet and outlets orientated?   
  Hot coolant to the rad to be taken from as high as possible on the engine's water jacket.
   Cooler return coolant from the rad must be routed as low as possible into the engine's water jacket. 
    There are "high flow" stats with a larger valve.
     Nobody knows why but every now and again somebody does install a stat upside down.

[dmarkh]

Back on topic, I'm sure I've corrected my problem with not being able to drive the 2.5 ton AC. Every connection in the inlet box and to the panel was bad. But as I was about to hook it up, to prove it to myself, I noticed once again, for the second time now, I did not have a thermalsyphon going. Surley the TS had opened by then. The temp was 214 so I gently just shut it down. I ordered a pump and 6lb rad cap on friday and should have it all today. I'm going to go ahead and plumb it in and do as bob suggested and put at least one 1/8" hole in the TS with a cotter pin in it. I may get it done this week. I sure hope that bosch pump can push the water up from the bottom of the cyl and then that 4 ft of hose coming out the plate up to the rad?

Mark

I got the pump yesterday. It is much smaller than I thought it would be. I ran some water through it last night and was pleasantly surprised at how much water it will move. And it appears that even if the pump breaks/stops it would not prevent a thermal siphon from taking place. (if one were possible to begin with)

Even though I am going to add this pump, I _think_ I may now know what my siphon problem may have been. First as I've already said my TS has no holes drilled in it. That's important. Second, and I just thought about this last night, when I had the plate off and was flushing it all out, I think I screwed up again by making my gasket with additional material on the divider plate between the hot output side and the cool input side. This is probably trapping hot water on the cool side hindering the tube from staying as cool as it should be. I wondered why the tube had heat shrink around it but know now it is to help with the siphon. So it was all probably self induced. When I have it down adding the pump I will be removing that part of the gasket so there will be flow possible. Probably not important any longer with the pump there but I might as well do it.

Does anyone know the drain petcock thread size. I've had it out many times now but never took note. It would be nice to have all the parts needed before I start this. Is it NPT or is going to be some strange metric thing?

Thanks
Mark

[playdiesel]

The drain cock threads on the engines I have fooled with are all 1/4"or 3/8 BSPT or British Standard Pipe Tapered. To my knowledge there is no metric "pipe thread" as we know it. The Europeans used the British system of pipe threads by and large however there are many different metric pattern tubing threads.
Most but not all of the BSP threads are one thread per inch different than the American standard version, bastards 
What this means when a person tries to mix and match them they start together OK, but get tight kind of quick, you put a wrench on the fitting to tighten it and it feels a bit funny but seems to be tightening OK. Then you put the joint under  just  a small amount of pressure and it leaks no matter how much you tighten it.

For anything under medium to high pressure you simply cannot mix and match. McMaster Carr has both adapters and fittings

For low head/pressure systems you have a few choices. If your not going to be taking the fitting in or out in the planned future clean everything up, mix up some JB weld and use it as thread dope, fixed. If that bothers you you can try regular thread dope but that hasn't worked for me. You can also run a regular US standard pipe tap into the hole if there is room but you take your chances with that. Too deep and the valve wont thread in far enough to seal and your back to JB Weld. 

Are you thinking about returning the cool water to the drain cock? I have thought f that also but it would require that the hole be opened up to accept a larger pipe. Is there room in the casting for that? I have not explored it further.

Personally I would remove the thermostat and try it prior to using a pump. If it then thero's correctly at least you have a known point to work at. I have a gut feeling that your problems lie under the plate, not with the 'stat.

[vdubnut62]

I have a couple of IH cub tractors. International Harvester decided back in the 40's that thermosiphon with no thermostat was good enough. The bottom hose has a dip in the middle,
and the top hose is larger than the bottom. It works perfectly. In fact I cut the grass every week or so with a 69 Cub Lo Boy, never had it to over heat even when the temps were near a hundred. It does get plenty hot though, and does not over cool IMO.
Ron.