Billswan's 16/1 Metro

[billswan]

Guys

Here is a pix of the beginning.

Direct injected  aluminum piston just under 5.125 inches in diameter and about 6.375 stroke approx.



Now back to the shop for more measurements this time I will write them down.

Billswan

[billswan]

Ok guys

Here is a problem I am having with my 16/1.
Am running it on wmo and so far not so good. I thought the direct injection would help it seems I could be wrong but have a couple of things to do to it that might help.
The injector tip carbons over faster than the 10/1 IDI ever thought of.
I have a 205 degree thermo and even went out and bought a new thermo to make sure that the motor is up to temp and all is well in that department.
Now during my partial disassemble and clean up I found the spill timeing  to be farther advanced than the 20 degrees that I thought it should be. I would guess it was about 25 degrees.
Thinking that it should be 20 that is where it is now. Maybe I am wrong and 25 is more right?
Am running it at about 900 rpm and about 7000 watts.

Below is a post that dieselgman put up about fuel consumption and I could not help but notice the timing of the different engines. The 16/2 is set so much earlier than the 8/1.
Of course the 16/1 came with only a reprint of the old original lister manual and no mention of what we might expect the bigger 16 hp version to be set to.
Anyone have any Idea?
This getting WMO to run at about 80 % is driving me NUTS...........



How and why does the 850rpm 7.5 hp air cooled VA stand 30 degrees will my 16/1 handle that?
Sure would increase combustion pressure and heat 10 more degrees of advance

Billswan

[Crofter]

Bill, I wonder if the injector pump lobe is the same? exactly when the initial crack opens may not be so important since very little fuel is delivered in the initial degrees as it ramps up. If it is the same lobe profile then that difference in start point is amazing. The two higher HP engines also have a longer stroke I believe, so that would effect piston dwell time , acceleration, and expansion rate so perhaps move the optimum fuel delivery map.

Intuitively WMO would suggest having a longer ignition lag and need earlier timing, but I have 0 experience burning it. Somewhere I have seen charts showing different fuel delivery maps along with peak combustion pressures, temperatures and exhaust temperatures, torque values etc. Cant remember where though there is some such info on sites selling performance mods to injector pumps and software chips. Sure as heck none of those cover waste motor oil! To say the least, you are a bit into uncharted waters!

[billswan]

Crofter

Well I have no Idea what the original lister engines used for lobe profiles on their various engines but I would be willing to bet a dollar the India clones all use the same camshaft. I know the shaft diameter is the same in both my 10/1 and the 16/1 makes me worry about another camshaft failure in this 16/1 because of the higher direct injector cracking set pressure.

As far as different strokes on the twins there I know for a fact that that is not true. As a 12/2 is the exact same bore and stroke as a 6/1 and according to the chart the timing is the same. But he 16/2 has a different more advanced timing compared to a 8/1 and they are the same bore and stroke as the 6/1 only difference is the aluminum piston versus cast iron and the higher rpm gives the more power.

Now the Va I know little of and the timing specks caught my eye. Better fuel economy also...........
Now if what I have wrote is incorrect please anyone out there set me straight!!

Am thinking I will have to reset the spill timing maybe I messed it up we all know how messy that process is........
Billswan

[mobile_bob]

when the injection starts, which might be as early on some engines as 30 degree's, there is what is known as ignition lag
which can be as much as 25 degrees, making the actual ignition about 5 degrees btdc

there are all sorts of things that effect ignition delay, fuel composition, combustion chamber characteristics, injector pressure/pattern,
coolant temps, and as Crofter relates "shape or profile" of the cam lobe.

no matter what the spill timing spec, most diesels end up with ignition taking place at about 5-6 degree btdc as evidenced by a sharp
pressure rise in the cylinder/combustion chamber.

you can probably play around with changing the timing a bit, however i would be hesitant to make changes over a couple degree's without
some very careful observation, such as running under a load at the new advanced timing and checking the bottom end brg for signs of stress

fwiw
bob g

[Crofter]

Bill, isnt the 16 a longer stroke crank? Yes the camshaft diameter is fixed unless you really, really go to a lot of trouble but it would be easy for them to have slipped on a differently profiled lobe. We might have to get that oldstylelister guy onto it, Lol! I was just trying to hypothesize why such a great increase in spill timing lead. Do you know the injection pump #. I can easily get the # off my 10-1 to see if it is the same. Just thinking here that the same pump on a larger displacement cylinder might need a bit more of a head start. Strange!

It sure would be nice to have an acoustic timing light that would pinpoint  both injector crack and main ignition event. That, along with a quick responce Exhaust gas temp readout would take so much of the head (or arse) scratching out of just what you are into.

[dieselgman]

VA is air-cooled direct injection. I may be able to find the camshaft timing spec chart for it, not certain. what matters more is valve lobe geometry and timing... the fuel pump lobe ramp is very steep and sustained on these cams, injector pressure changes should NOT present more than a miniscule difference in camshaft loading. The change in pump plunger diameter (and thus fuel delivery volume) will differentiate a higher horsepower setup, not necessarily injector pressures.

dieselgman

[veggie]

billswan,

Regarding your fuel and excessive carbon/coke on the injector:

Just a thought....the direct injection design may be working against you. If the fuel is not thin enough, the spray pattern may become quite abnormal.
Anything from droplets to stringy spray patterns can be experienced instead of a finely atomized spray.
Result: Incomplete combustion.

Perhaps consider thinning with diesel, kerosene, or RUG during your experiments. Start with 5% thinner and work up.
DI heads and straight waste WVO or WMO is a difficult match IMHO.

veggie

[Diesel Guy]

Billswan,

I just dropped in for a minute. I usually don't have much to say and I will be up front saying I have "no" experience with anything but diesel fuel in the engines. With that said, I do know a lot about cam timing, turbo boost pressures, peak cylinder pressures, fuel pump injection timing and etc..

I definitely would not run 25 degrees on the 16/1, like I said other fuels could be different. On my 14/1, I now run it at 850 RPM and the pump timing is set at 16 degrees BTDC and I run it at a maximum of 4,800 watts. It could pull 6,000 watts but the power pulses you can feel is not good for the engine, 80% load maximum.

The injection pumps on the 12/1, 14/1 and 16/1 are the bigger 034 models and the 6/1, 8/1 and 10/1 is the smaller 032 models.

I myself like retarded timing. What I mean is the most lazy timing "I can get away with and still have proper burn rates". To achieve this you need an almost constant load, to keep cylinder pressures and temperatures elevated to promote proper burn.

There is a saying with us building diesel engines, "The earlier the injection timing is set, the sooner the next engine rebuild". This shouldn't be taken out of context, just run as much timing as what is "needed" and not more for your fuel.

I can time engines by ear and I know someone is going to say that's not how to do it. But if you played with camshafts and pump timing as much as I did, you could do it as well.

You can hear it and you can feel it, with the proper timing, at each RPM zone. Set the engine speed and a constant load (maybe a DC load or heating element?) can help you really dial the timing in, for you.

The problem with the 16/1 is that is has a large displacement and a greater mechanical advantage long stroke crankshaft (like placing a "longer" pry bar on something) the internal components are still mainly 6/1 parts. This increased pressure (more downward force)  from the increased displacement and greater leverage applied from the crankshaft ,can do a lot of damage, if not operated at optimum tune. That is why I'm so conservative with my 14/1's power output.

This is just my input and with burning other fuels might be miss informative.  I just don't want you to tear apart your piston, rod and mains due to your engine compressing a burning fuel to early BTDC. Remember, the best burn rates and set timing, are when the peak cylinder pressures are achieved at 5 degrees ATDC. This would provide the highest efficiency.

Good luck, 
Diesel Guy

[billswan]

Bill, isnt the 16 a longer stroke crank? Yes the camshaft diameter is fixed unless you really, really go to a lot of trouble but it would be easy for them to have slipped on a differently profiled lobe. We might have to get that oldstylelister guy onto it, Lol! I was just trying to hypothesize why such a great increase in spill timing lead. Do you know the injection pump #. I can easily get the # off my 10-1 to see if it is the same. Just thinking here that the same pump on a larger displacement cylinder might need a bit more of a head start. Strange!

It sure would be nice to have an acoustic timing light that would pinpoint  both injector crack and main ignition event. That, along with a quick responce Exhaust gas temp readout would take so much of the head (or arse) scratching out of just what you are into.

Crofter

Yes my 16/1 is a lot longer stroke than a 16/2 is what I was referring to in my post above.

The pump on my 16/1 is a 034 and for some reason the pump on my old 10/1 is also a 034.

Don't have any fancy diesel timing tools only trial and error.

Veggie

Have been trying to run 80 % oil and 20% number 2 diesel.

Ran the thing out of fuel a couple hours ago and cleaned the injector and mixed up a new batch.

60 % waste hydralic oil
35 % diesel no 2
5 % RUG

will see how that mix works.............

Billswan

[billswan]

Billswan,

I just dropped in for a minute. I usually don't have much to say and I will be up front saying I have "no" experience with anything but diesel fuel in the engines. With that said, I do know a lot about cam timing, turbo boost pressures, peak cylinder pressures, fuel pump injection timing and etc..

I definitely would not run 25 degrees on the 16/1, like I said other fuels could be different. On my 14/1, I now run it at 850 RPM and the pump timing is set at 16 degrees BTDC and I run it at a maximum of 4,800 watts. It could pull 6,000 watts but the power pulses you can feel is not good for the engine, 80% load maximum.

The injection pumps on the 12/1, 14/1 and 16/1 are the bigger 034 models and the 6/1, 8/1 and 10/1 is the smaller 032 models.

I myself like retarded timing. What I mean is the most lazy timing "I can get away with and still have proper burn rates". To achieve this you need an almost constant load, to keep cylinder pressures and temperatures elevated to promote proper burn.

There is a saying with us building diesel engines, "The earlier the injection timing is set, the sooner the next engine rebuild". This shouldn't be taken out of context, just run as much timing as what is "needed" and not more for your fuel.

I can time engines by ear and I know someone is going to say that's not how to do it. But if you played with camshafts and pump timing as much as I did, you could do it as well.

You can hear it and you can feel it, with the proper timing, at each RPM zone. Set the engine speed and a constant load (maybe a DC load or heating element?) can help you really dial the timing in, for you.

The problem with the 16/1 is that is has a large displacement and a greater mechanical advantage long stroke crankshaft (like placing a "longer" pry bar on something) the internal components are still mainly 6/1 parts. This increased pressure (more downward force)  from the increased displacement and greater leverage applied from the crankshaft ,can do a lot of damage, if not operated at optimum tune. That is why I'm so conservative with my 14/1's power output.

This is just my input and with burning other fuels might be miss informative.  I just don't want you to tear apart your piston, rod and mains due to your engine compressing a burning fuel to early BTDC. Remember, the best burn rates and set timing, are when the peak cylinder pressures are achieved at 5 degrees ATDC. This would provide the highest efficiency.

Good luck, 
Diesel Guy

Diesel guy

Cannot argue with anything you wrote.

But I am into these engines because I have lots of oil to burn and want to find a way to burn it if it costs me another cylinder assembly so be it that is just part of the process of trial and error. But if it costs me a crank and a rod well now that would hurt..........

I rechecked the spill timing this morning and I had thought it was at 20 but I had messed up and it was at 17 degrees. Now this motor doesn't burn straight diesel without making the tip dirty so either the compression ratio is to low or the timing is late.

Does your 14/1 run a clean injector tip on straight diesel?
If so do you know what the compression ratio is or the bump clearance, my bump is .067 inch.

By the way I have increased the timing some I will check the injector later today when the 5 gallon batch I mixed up is gone will let everyone know late tonight what the result was. The timing increase did not seen to be noticeable to my ear so will see what happens.

Billswan

[Crofter]

My 10-1 also has the 034 pump. My spill timing was something a bit less than 20 degrees but since I am running 900 instead of the max 1000 rpm I did not bother resetting it to the manual recommendation of 20 deg.

[Bottleveg]

I agree with Veggie, IDI engines tend to fair better with alternative fuels.
Warming the wmo would help. Also starting on diesel then changing to wmo when the engine is warm.
How do you filter your wmo and to what micron?

[billswan]

I agree with Veggie, IDI engines tend to fair better with alternative fuels.
Warming the wmo would help. Also starting on diesel then changing to wmo when the engine is warm.
How do you filter your wmo and to what micron?

Well always start on diesel and turn over to wmo when at full temp or close to it. And stop on diesel.

Series of filters ending with 10 micron into a barrel and so far everything has settled for almost a year then through another set of filters ending at 6 microns into the day tank.

The pump and injector on the old 10/1 seemed to do ok just wore out he sleeve and piston + rings.

My old 10/1 was idi and it struggled on wmo but might have done a little better.

Billswan

[billswan]

Well Guys

The next 5 gallons of mix has gone through. as I posted above the mix was

60 % waste hydralic oil
35 % diesel no 2
5 % RUG

I had jacked the spill timing ahead from 17 way the heck out to 26 degrees. And yes I know that is a huge jump but I figured what the heck my lively hood does not rest on this engine it is more of a working hobby so if I wreak it well some of you told me so, I know.
Now the results........ well the engine ran mostly just as before but I did notice that the burn was better as the exhaust smelled more like the exhaust off the old 10/1 that had the compression jacked up. But the injector still carboned over as I started to notice blacker exhaust so stopped it and cleaned the carbon off the tip. There is not much left to do other than to start closing up the bump clearance.


I have mixed up a batch of 50/50 and it is now digesting that but I am thinking that there is not much hope for this engine design, direct injected I mean. Short of oil processing the cognos way.

Billswan