Expected life expectancy from WMO?

[BioHazard]

are the listeroid liners induction hardened?

Better yet, could they be? Or maybe some other type of cylinder plating material?

[BioHazard]

Wartsila uses water injection on at least some of their engines. Would this help wash away or lessen the the impacts of ash? I tried it on my Roid. Even at a quart an hour it contaminated my cold, 110 °F oil rather quickly. I could devise a way to get the oil hotter but I don't want the extra plumbing.

Thanks, Geno

If using propane or natural gas injection, the combustion creates it's own steam. I think propane makes more than gas. I wonder how much it takes to make a difference though? Another thing that could be tried is injecting steam.

[vdubnut62]

After a little digging, I'm not sure anything will help. I posted a few things I discovered here-

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=1618.0

And I didn't even to begin to scratch the surface. There are also things in there that will make you grow extra body parts-or maybe make 'em fall off.
I just looked for some of the more obvious abrasives. It blows my mind that so many thing are lubricants - until you burn them and the ash turns into
rubbing compound.
Ron

[spencer1885]

   

Please could every one who is interested in using WMO please read my posts.
My genuine  Lister has a chrome bore and that did not survive WMO.
The ash that's forming inside the cylinder is abrasive and that's going to be abrasive in any engine and unless your engine is made out of some thing harder than steel it's going to wear out very quickly.

Your posts have been read. I'm not stupid, of course WMO will make any engine wear out quicker than diesel fuel. On the other hand cylinder liners and piston rings aren't very expensive. I consider them disposeable. If WMO caused wear to the crankcase or the crankshaft the issue might be a little more severe.

You make it sound as if no engine has ever run on WMO or other bad, thick, dirty fuels like #6 bunker oil. The fact is, it happens all the time on ocean going ships, and they last thousands, and thousands, and thousands of hours.

In addition to that I am aware of quite a few people who have run their pickup trucks and listeroids and changfoids on WMO. They all report increased wear, and zero fuel bills, and few report their engine just explodes. Just imagine what kind of shit fuel they feed these engines in 3rd world countries like Inidia and China. I can guarantee you they aren't running clean #2 pump diesel at some village in the mountains of India....

At what point did any person on this forum or the LEF say WMO would cause the rings and bore to wear out in a couple of thousand hours and it was caused by the burnt additives?
This is news to me, perhaps you should have told us all about this before, if you had already known about it.

[BioHazard]

At what point did any person on this forum or the LEF say WMO would cause the rings and bore to wear out in a couple of thousand hours and it was caused by the burnt additives?

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that out. Dirty fuel = more bore wear. Very simple. Doesn't mean there aren't ways around it, or ways to just accept it.

[spencer1885]

At what point did any person on this forum or the LEF say WMO would cause the rings and bore to wear out in a couple of thousand hours and it was caused by the burnt additives?

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that out. Dirty fuel = more bore wear. Very simple. Doesn't mean there aren't ways around it, or ways to just accept it.

You have missed the point once again.
If it was just dirty fuel then the fuel injection system would have been wearing out.
It's a chemical change inside an engines cylinder after the WMO is burnt that's producing the highly abrasive ash.
Are you telling me that you already knew that.

[BioHazard]

I don't really care what exactly is causing it to wear. I'm glad to hear it didn't effect the pump or injectors. You said you got over 2000 hours right? I'd consider that a success. The engine paid for itself in that time and it sounds like you still have a good core. I honestly don't understand why you think your test was a failure?

It's kind of like gasoline engines that run on propane. They last longer and the oil stays cleaner. That's because propane is a much cleaner fuel than even fresh pump gasoline. But fuel injectors don't really wear out all that often on gas engines do they? In this sense, people driving around on gasoline are trading extra engine wear for a more convenient/cost effective fuel.

This works the same for diesel engines too, compared to propane diesel fuel is dirty/abrasive to your engine when it burns over time.

[spencer1885]

I don't really care what exactly is causing it to wear. I'm glad to hear it didn't effect the pump or injectors. You said you got over 2000 hours right? I'd consider that a success. The engine paid for itself in that time and it sounds like you still have a good core. I honestly don't understand why you think your test was a failure?

It's kind of like gasoline engines that run on propane. They last longer and the oil stays cleaner. That's because propane is a much cleaner fuel than even fresh pump gasoline. But fuel injectors don't really wear out all that often on gas engines do they? In this sense, people driving around on gasoline are trading extra engine wear for a more convenient/cost effective fuel.

This works the same for diesel engines too, compared to propane diesel fuel is dirty/abrasive to your engine when it burns over time.

I can't tell you how many hours a Lister or Listeriod would normally last but it would be a lot if it was in good condition and serviced regularly.
2000 hours is a tiny fraction of the sorts of hours you would normally get.
If your cars engine lasted 250 000 miles which it could even do on veg oil a Lister lasting 3000 hours is more like 20 000 miles, that's what I would call a failure.

[billswan]

Guys

Have been thinking about the wear in my 10/1. As I have mentioned I believe it is not only WMO but the low quality parts.

Now spencer's 6/1 is still limping along and I am sure it has a cast iron piston and that type of piston probably resists ring land wear better than soft aluminum.

Now if  an engine had a quality induction hardened sleeve with a piston of quality cast iron or aluminum and an insert like modern diesels have in the ring land area that would help, add in modern ring technology. Most diesel engines I used to work on had at least 1 keystone ring riding in a hardened insert.

I have to think back to the days of the old 10 series john deere tractors built in the early 60's they originally came out with 5 ring pistons and although I personally did not work on them some of the mechanics I worked with said there was a time jd had lots of trouble with the engines then the new design piston showed up it had 3 rings the top ring was a keystone running in an insert and the second ring was a normal rectangular running in aluminum and the 3rd If i remember right a 3 piece oil ring. After this change problems solved.

If we just had better parts I believe the life on wmo could be extended out significantly.

An induction hardened sleeve running a quality aluminum piston with direct injection cup in piston with 2 keystone rings in a hardened insert and a 3 piece oil ring. The top keystone ring needs to be steel not cast and have a chrome face second could be cast iron and keep the width of the rings down to about .100 not the .160 the 10/1 had. Then move the insert up closer to the top of the piston to improve compression by reducing the distance of the top ring to the head of the piston. Now throw away the IDI head put on a flat face head and incorporate modern injection tip with pressures at about at least 290 bar.

Hows that for dreaming
Billswan

[vdubnut62]

Figure out how to get the carbon particles out of the WMO, supposedly the nasties are chemically imprisoned there, and the problem is solved.
BUT heat won't work, it releases the stuff. And I'll be darned if I can figure a cold (relatively) process that is viable.
Someone smarter than I will have to open this can of worms.
I know it can be done, the question is, can it be done on a small scale safely and economically.
I'm sure not gonna be out in the shop thinning my WMO with hexane, then centrifuging small batches for a couple hours at 12,000 rpm.
Ron

[BioHazard]

Interesting that you mention using direct injection Billswan, I always thought IDI was better for waste oil? Am I wrong?

Do you think something like a custom piston is something that a DIYer can come up with, with help from a machine shop? Can standard lister liners be induction hardened?

[billswan]

Interesting that you mention using direct injection Billswan, I always thought IDI was better for waste oil? Am I wrong?

Do you think something like a custom piston is something that a DIYer can come up with, with help from a machine shop? Can standard lister liners be induction hardened?

Bio

The guys that run wvo seem to think IDI is better, and as having no experience with wvo I have no reason to argue with that.

It is my personal idea that direct injection might be better for WMO I cannot prove it. Yet. The 10/1 I was running was idi and at first before the compression went away it seemed to run ok but when the compression dropped it started to be a real knocker as chunks of carbon would come down out of the pre cup and get in  between the piston and head made quite the racket. I am hoping that with direct injection when the compression does start going down there won't be the knocking problem. I am hoping that when the carbon from incomplete combustion forms it will just get tossed out the exhaust. the carbon shouldn't stick to the piston and being the head is flat with less cold running nooks like a precup head has the carbon has less to build on,maybe.

See reply 21 http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=1608.msg19623#new

and notice the big dents in the top of the aluminum piston scares the crap out of you if you are near by when the engine starts knocking from carbon interfering with the piston travel.

Custom pistons well we can dream but the cost would be ...........................?
Quality sleeves well who knows?

Billswan

[spencer1885]

Interesting that you mention using direct injection Billswan, I always thought IDI was better for waste oil? Am I wrong?

Do you think something like a custom piston is something that a DIYer can come up with, with help from a machine shop? Can standard lister liners be induction hardened?

Bio

The guys that run wvo seem to think IDI is better, and as having no experience with wvo I have no reason to argue with that.

It is my personal idea that direct injection might be better for WMO I cannot prove it. Yet. The 10/1 I was running was idi and at first before the compression went away it seemed to run ok but when the compression dropped it started to be a real knocker as chunks of carbon would come down out of the pre cup and get in  between the piston and head made quite the racket. I am hoping that with direct injection when the compression does start going down there won't be the knocking problem. I am hoping that when the carbon from incomplete combustion forms it will just get tossed out the exhaust. the carbon shouldn't stick to the piston and being the head is flat with less cold running nooks like a precup head has the carbon has less to build on,maybe.

See reply 21 http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=1608.msg19623#new

and notice the big dents in the top of the aluminum piston scares the crap out of you if you are near by when the engine starts knocking from carbon interfering with the piston travel.

Custom pistons well we can dream but the cost would be ...........................?
Quality sleeves well who knows?

Billswan

The way I look at it is,with a direct injection engine the smaller multi holes in the injector are more likely to have problems with carbon build up and also you are spraying all the crap straight in to the cylinder and on to the cylinder walls.
The carbon will still build up but instead of building up in the idi head and then braking off the carbon will build up on top of the piston and cause permanent knock until you remove the head and clean it off.
DI engines are known to need higher quality fuel and also have a lower compression than idi engines.
I have used a 50/50 mix of WMO in two Petter PH1 engines for a very short time and had problems with injectors becoming coked up.

[billswan]

Interesting that you mention using direct injection Billswan, I always thought IDI was better for waste oil? Am I wrong?

Do you think something like a custom piston is something that a DIYer can come up with, with help from a machine shop? Can standard lister liners be induction hardened?

Bio

The guys that run wvo seem to think IDI is better, and as having no experience with wvo I have no reason to argue with that.

It is my personal idea that direct injection might be better for WMO I cannot prove it. Yet. The 10/1 I was running was idi and at first before the compression went away it seemed to run ok but when the compression dropped it started to be a real knocker as chunks of carbon would come down out of the pre cup and get in  between the piston and head made quite the racket. I am hoping that with direct injection when the compression does start going down there won't be the knocking problem. I am hoping that when the carbon from incomplete combustion forms it will just get tossed out the exhaust. the carbon shouldn't stick to the piston and being the head is flat with less cold running nooks like a precup head has the carbon has less to build on,maybe.

See reply 21 http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=1608.msg19623#new

and notice the big dents in the top of the aluminum piston scares the crap out of you if you are near by when the engine starts knocking from carbon interfering with the piston travel.

Custom pistons well we can dream but the cost would be ...........................?
Quality sleeves well who knows?

Billswan

The way I look at it is,with a direct injection engine the smaller multi holes in the injector are more likely to have problems with carbon build up and also you are spraying all the crap straight in to the cylinder and on to the cylinder walls.
The carbon will still build up but instead of building up in the idi head and then braking off the carbon will build up on top of the piston and cause permanent knock until you remove the head and clean it off.
DI engines are known to need higher quality fuel and also have a lower compression than idi engines.
I have used a 50/50 mix of WMO in two Petter PH1 engines for a very short time and had problems with injectors becoming coked up.

Well spencer

I am going to going it a try and will report back if it works out as you say, well at least i will have replicated your experience and the group will profit from the post.

Billswan

[spencer1885]

Billswan,
Sorry if I am be so negative as I feel very disappointed that this has not been a success. 
Of all the possible problems you could imagine I never imagined this one .
The only good coming out of this experience is helping other people not to make the same mistakes and waste there time and money.
How ever you look at it the results will be the same and the only way to use WMO is to burn it for heat.

Spencer