I want a natural gas engine that serves no other purpose than to be a boiler. The engine will have a generator attached but the electricity is a "waste" byproduct, the engine would only be run when there is a demand for heat.
My question is, does there exist such an engine at this one?
1. Can be purchased for less than $1500-2000 total for a running engine.
2. Must have built in governor.
3. Must be water cooled.
4. Is in the 5hp to 50hp range.
5. Runs on or can be converted to natural gas.
6. Horizontal crankshaft.
As hard as diesels are becoming to find, I can't think of any gas/NG engines that would fit the bill? The closest thing I can come up with is the water cooled Kawasaki V twins from Surplus Center but they are vertical engines.
Anybody ever think of converting a Changfa type engine to full natural gas operation? I know Kubota has a nice little 3 cylinder NG engine, but I think that is way out of my price range.
First idea that comes to mind... Why? There would be far too much wasted energy in this scenario. Of course the electricity could be run through additional heating elements in the boiler jacket to improve efficiency and loading so that would not be "waste".
If you have natural gas available... then a direct boiler offers the most efficient transfer of energy that I am aware of.
Many engines can be converted to run NG but cost would be the next problem... by the time you added an ignition system, you would certainly blow out a $2,000 budget - even if using a low to no-cost basic engine. The Germans (and other Europeans) have fine tuned a number of micro-chp units for mass consumption, but alas - not in the low-end price range either. :o
dieselgman
Second thing that comes to my mind (after Gary's first thing) is an old oil well pump jack engine. Something like a Fairbanks Morse Z 118, 208, or bigger; or maybe a Witte 98RC. You'd have to find a bargain on a used one to get within your price range, and probably have to repair it yourself to save money. I have no idea how efficient these engines are, as they ran on well head gas (free), so they didn't worry about efficiency. These engines are normally set up with a carb that can run on natural gas or propane. I'd suspect that at least 1/3 of the heat energy goes out the exhaust pipe, so you would want to recover heat there as well. If you live near oil well country, and they are in the process of changing out engines for electric motors, you might find one cheap - if you beat the scrappers to it. Running, ready to go, these engines can sell for many times your budget.
I've been thinking about getting one of these myself, but simply because I have a 500 gallon propane tank out back. It runs the furnace and water heater, but neither works without electricity. Seems like it would be a shame to have a bunch of fuel out back but no way to use it in an emergency. Propane doesn't go bad over time like gas or diesel does. Plus I want a slow turning engine with big flywheels that I can go run on occasion when I need a little therapy. Just crank it up, sit back in your rocker, and thump, thump, thump - all of your troubles go away. ;D
Quote from: BioHazard on March 10, 2012, 02:22:30 AM
I want a natural gas engine that serves no other purpose than to be a boiler. The engine will have a generator attached but the electricity is a "waste" byproduct, the engine would only be run when there is a demand for heat.
My question is, does there exist such an engine at this one?
1. Can be purchased for less than $1500-2000 total for a running engine.
2. Must have built in governor.
3. Must be water cooled.
4. Is in the 5hp to 50hp range.
5. Runs on or can be converted to natural gas.
6. Horizontal crankshaft.
As hard as diesels are becoming to find, I can't think of any gas/NG engines that would fit the bill? The closest thing I can come up with is the water cooled Kawasaki V twins from Surplus Center but they are vertical engines.
Anybody ever think of converting a Changfa type engine to full natural gas operation? I know Kubota has a nice little 3 cylinder NG engine, but I think that is way out of my price range.
I sent you a couple PM's.
Henry
Quote from: dieselgman on March 10, 2012, 06:16:38 AM
First idea that comes to mind... Why? There would be far too much wasted energy in this scenario. Of course the electricity could be run through additional heating elements in the boiler jacket to improve efficiency and loading so that would not be "waste".
The electricity wouldn't actually be "waste", but a byproduct nonetheless. It would certainly go to good use. I would be happy with an overall 80% efficiency rating...I think that's possible.
Quote from: Thob on March 10, 2012, 06:56:11 AM
Second thing that comes to my mind (after Gary's first thing) is an old oil well pump jack engine. Something like a Fairbanks Morse Z 118, 208, or bigger; or maybe a Witte 98RC.
I would LOVE to have something like that but they are pretty rare/non existant here in Oregon. Shipping one in would be a real killer, and I'm not quite sure I want to take on a rebuild project like that.
If you want one - just ask. I saw a bunch of them on this website a couple of months ago just sleeping along side a metal shed somewhere in oil land USA. They were included in a thread about one being restored to near showroom condition.
Casey
Quote from: LowGear on March 10, 2012, 05:06:08 PM
If you want one - just ask. I saw a bunch of them on this website a couple of months ago just sleeping along side a metal shed somewhere in oil land USA. They were included in a thread about one being restored to near showroom condition.
Casey
Unfortunately I don't think one of those + shipping + rebuild is in my budget. I kinda want something turn key. Makes me sad to hear they're being scrapped though....
I think the engines you're referring to are located somewhere near Tulsa, OK. Such a deal I have for you - I'll drive up to Tulsa, pick up a FM 208, and meet you North of Denver, Colorado. You bring about the same amount of pounds of Lister CS (I think 2x CS 6-1 will do it), and I'll swap you even. ;D ;D ;D I'll even bring my engine hoist for loading/unloading.
That's my FB ZC 346 in the other thread. Yes, there are many in the Tulsa OK area. Very nice, smooth, well-built engines. $2000 will get you a project, but you'll be in the $4-5k range for a completely rebuilt and ready to run engine. I'd be happy to help find one if you're interested as I've made a lot of contacts in the "community" while restoring mine.
Chris
Magnificent engines but many clicks past my piggy bank. I see natural gas Wittes every once in a while but these units too have moved into stratosphere as far as my pocket book goes.
I wonder how long these old guys will set / lay around before someone just lets go?
Casey
Biohazard,
Geo Metro 3-cyl 1 L engine (~$200.00) coupled to an Onan CCK 4KW gen end (~$200.00); use a Generac governor electronics (~170.00) driving a stepper motor (free) on the caburetor throttle-plate, and add an LPG (propane) / Natural Gas fuel adapter (for those fuels ~$70.00). Use a stainless swimming pool heat exchanger (~400.00) to run the cooling system water through to capture exhaust heat too. Have a base and adapter fabricated (~$200.00 ??) Total will be well within your proposed budget.
I've done this. Had an adapter plate made to match output clutch shaft with generator head; left engine flywheel, clutch, and pressure-plate in-place to provied additional "flywheel" mass for electrical surges.
Regards, JLB
Hey great explanation JLB.
Very practical down to Earth obtainium solution.
Very smart on keeping the additional Free flywheel mass.
I do not know if CCK's were two pole 3600 RPM or four pole 1800 RPM.
Can you confirm your operating RPM please?
Best Regards
Washington State Steve Unruh
CCK's were 1800 rpm
Quote from: bergmanj on March 14, 2012, 09:02:59 AM
Biohazard,
Geo Metro 3-cyl 1 L engine (~$200.00) coupled to an Onan CCK 4KW gen end (~$200.00); use a Generac governor electronics (~170.00) driving a stepper motor (free) on the caburetor throttle-plate, and add an LPG (propane) / Natural Gas fuel adapter (for those fuels ~$70.00). Use a stainless swimming pool heat exchanger (~400.00) to run the cooling system water through to capture exhaust heat too. Have a base and adapter fabricated (~$200.00 ??) Total will be well within your proposed budget.
I've done this. Had an adapter plate made to match output clutch shaft with generator head; left engine flywheel, clutch, and pressure-plate in-place to provied additional "flywheel" mass for electrical surges.
Regards, JLB
I like the way you think. ;) I'm sure everybody here would love to see some pictures of your setup. Could you elaborate on the Generac governor?
Folks,
Very sorry, don't have any pictures. Looks crude (as my prototype), but works fine.
Governor is Generac (not particularily "in-love" with Generac); don't have electronics model number handy as was purchased several years back. It's one of theirs that uses the generated 60 Hz to derive control; works with a 4-wire stepper motor.
I have it coupled to the throttle plate via a home3-made "coil-spring" (about ten turns of so of stainless wire) wound slightly tighter than the shaft diameters, then forced onto each shaft. This kind of coupling helps provide a "cusion" for sudden changes and inherent vibration, and helps with any slight misalignment of the two shafts.
That's about it, except to note that the CCK generators can really take an awful beating with regard to overload and surges: Under room-temperature circumstances, they can usually "take" 150% of rated load for many, many, minutes (1/2 to 1 hr??), and a 200% surge load for up to about 30 seconds (way "overbuilt" according to today's "standards").
For more information on these old Onan's, go to the "Smokstak Onan" forum (easy to search-out).
Must start work now.
Regards, JLB
Hey thanks for the reply Mr JLB
Again you add good useable info with your hand built governor linkage spring details. Factory unit linkages use these much and I'd never though about making my own.
You will fit in fine here as a contributing asset. No worry about the pictures, not all of us are pixilated. "Give me a thousand words and I'll paint a beautiful picture in your mind". You are doing very well with far less words.
I was involved with woodgas converting a 999 CC Generac/Chinese aircooled V-twin that used same four wire stepper motor system. Very, very noisy set up as air cooled 17.5 kW direct drive 3600 RPM.
Governing worked very well and fast. Generac service reputation however was always a risk in my mind.
Your system practicality reminds me of a fellow over on the old Lister Engine Forum who had taken a Dodge slant 6 with a mechanical belt governor added and coupled it up to a 20? 30? kW four pole gen head and then fueled his engine off of street/city (methane) gas. He laughed at all of the guys he felt had it backwards. You START with your fuel source, THEN pick an available engine that could fuel with it. I back-asswards this myself for a time too.
May I export your system information over onto a couple of the woodgas groups with a home power interest?
As BioH. says the really nice factory methane setup Kubota 3 cyclinder DG972's at a few grand are out of many fellows price ability.
Regards
Steve Unruh
SteveU,
Please feel free to "spread the word" as you see fit. My personal philosophy is that that's what these forums are for.
Your comments about woodgas are interesting to me in this conversation because I specifically chose a spark-ignited engine potentially for that very use if (when???) fossil fuels become prohibitively expensive (diesel won't do any good then).
I've been around a bunch of these related forums for years; but, just joined this one.
Spouse and I are totally "off-grid" (though still running too much propane with backup generator!), and slowly moving toward more independence from fossil fuels.
My Geo Metro setup hasn't been used for a while now, as I ran-into a NOS Kohler commercial water-cooled unit for a real steal (under $1K for a unit 10Kw unit with 0.7 hrs on it!). Absolutely couldn't pass that one up as it also has the "wet" exhaust manifold which will help in recovering even more heat.
If I get a chance, I'll try to I. D. the Generac governor electronics; I bought it from a distributor our of Milwaukee WI - though, I don't remember their name now.
Regards, JLB
Hmmm. Well if you can, do post up that Generac control info when you can. Fella's here have posted they have bought these and now trying to get them to work.
On woodgas fueling the Good News it can be made to work. ~80% if what I've know and experienced I've put up here in the mid home page: Fuels/Alternatives section -> Methane, Producer Gas, Propane, etc. board -> then mostly on the "lets build a small gasifier" topic thread.
The other ~20% I've known and experienced is now locked behind others copyrights, patents protected walls. None of which is DYI capable or safe anyhow. ?? You want to be 200 bar compressing a combustible composite gas and then running it by a heated catalyst!? Not me anymore either! I've had to carry the name of Boom-Boom.
Also see the bottom of Home page here: Dealer Registry -> Company/Location/Products for Sale -> then the "True Small CHP Woodgas Sysytems Now in Production". Load up the VictoryGasWorks site and there is still even a picture of me pawing over the first Kubota we used. These systems now evolved far past DYI capability.
The Bad News about woodgas is in here, "Woodgas! Different every Day and Hour of the day!" Woodgas ain't or ever going to be standardized commercial propane or methane for ease of walk-a-way useage and post operation maintenance required.
This is evident in the "Whole town powered by woodgas" topic that was put up in the Producer Gas section. True today 50 years later also. Vehicle guys get around some of this with an on board operator every operating hour. It CAN be compensated for with a bunch of sensor feedback programmed electronic controls. See the work and follow the links jimmason and K_jab (Ken Boak) have put up on the Producer Gas Board.
So I personally came to a Y in the road winter of 2010/11 after hundreds of hours developing for AC. Quit trying to Nazi lock step produce synchronous AC. Got real and then promoted DC generate and just let the RPM float with load anf fuel gas batch burn quality changes and then have your electronics as off the shelf inverter/chargers. I yabbed about all of that on the Victory Commercial system thread here. This philosophy was in the previous Hottwatt and the current 2012 units there. But now as $$,$$$ units not DYI capable of emulating anymore. Individual hearth sales for their own engine/generator support has been hundreds more hours. Another Y. I have now personally bowed out of that too.
So Mr JLB as an old man now with only so much sand left in the life clock I'll PM you some site links to fellows who are rural and Offgrid working to fuel with their own on-site grown woods fuels also. An old Y in my road - I have chose to live Rural and to the fellows I now enjoy helping all other fuel stocks unless you are growing them yourself are all Urban products even negative energy pellets.
Ha! Ha! Hope I did not hijack too much Mr BioH. I will accept any moderating needed.
Regards
SteveU.
Folks,
I did a little research into my back-files, and found the Generac governor part number: 098647.
Hookup information is found in Manual P/N 79699, pp16, Figure 20.
I hope this helps someone.
Regards, JLB
Quote from: BioHazard on March 10, 2012, 02:22:30 AM
I want a natural gas engine that serves no other purpose than to be a boiler. The engine will have a generator attached but the electricity is a "waste" byproduct, the engine would only be run when there is a demand for heat.
Other than the general man-like for an engine, if it's just a boiler that generates electricity you want, then you should look into this sort of thing: http://www.which.co.uk/news/2010/03/new-baxi-boiler-creates-free-electricity-206586/
That's obviously a UK link, but I'm sure you can get stuff like that stateside as well.
See also: http://www.bluegen.info/
AdeV
The OP wanted something in the $2,000.00 or under range.
Regards, JLB
Quote from: bergmanj on March 16, 2012, 11:36:14 AM
Folks,
I did a little research into my back-files, and found the Generac governor part number: 098647.
Hookup information is found in Manual P/N 79699, pp16, Figure 20.
I hope this helps someone.
Regards, JLB
Just in case anyone is wondering, I dug up some more info.
The Generac governor can be found here for about $150:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=generac+098647&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=
The stepper motor can be had for about $120
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=generac+098290&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=
and the manual can be found here:
http://www.generac.com/PublicPDFs/79699.pdf
Looks like an interesting option.
Biohazard,
Please note that I used a free stepper motor out of an old printer - it's a standard 4-wire 12 volt, and works just fine with the Generac electronic governor. It's body is roughtly a 2" cube in size. I could have gone smaller, but this is what was at-hand.
Most throttle plates are "neutral" mounted on the shaft (that is, the air-stream through the carburetor presents no biased torque to overcome; so, it usually takes only a very minimum-size motor to control it (if the throttle-shaft bearings / bushings are in reasonable condition.
Regards, JLB
Quote from: AdeV on March 19, 2012, 03:57:59 AM
Other than the general man-like for an engine, if it's just a boiler that generates electricity you want, then you should look into this sort of thing: http://www.which.co.uk/news/2010/03/new-baxi-boiler-creates-free-electricity-206586/
That's obviously a UK link, but I'm sure you can get stuff like that stateside as well.
See also: http://www.bluegen.info/
Me want engine. Vroom vroom. Daddy has some testosterone to burn off. :o
Those are intesting units you posted, how do they generate electricity? It doesn't appear to be engine driven? I haven't seen anything like that in the sates.
What I really want is a generator that can deliver at least 3kw from a generator head and another 3kw in DC power. The DC power woud be part of a solar system, the 3kw is what it takes to run the lights in my shop. That way I can switch just the lights back and fourth between gen power easily without disturbing the entire main breaker.
Also for shop use I'd like to hook an air compressor up directly to the engine.
Quote from: bergmanj on March 14, 2012, 09:02:59 AM
and add an LPG (propane) / Natural Gas fuel adapter (for those fuels ~$70.00).
Where did you find such a thing for $70? Most kits I've seen for small engines are $200+ and they only go up from there...
Bio,
I was pricing a fuel block only, not the complete kit. Most of "us" folks usually have access to parts and pieces, and don't need the full kit. If an CCK generator end is obtained, my assumption would be that it's (probably "blown") engine and attached carburetor would also be available in most cases; and, most of those were already setup in RV's for LP; so, they may also have the fuel system available ( low-pressure regulator, demand regulator, fuel block, etc. Then, again, maybe I'm assuming too much here.
US Carb's has the full kit for around $170.00, as you say.
Actually, with some precise drilling and a "fab'd" outlet with a control valve, anybody can actually make a "homemade" conversion to most existing carburetors.
Regards, JLB
Bio,
Just "bumping", as I'm curious as to any futher progress with your query here.
Regards, JLB
Quote from: BioHazard on March 21, 2012, 02:51:05 AM
Me want engine. Vroom vroom. Daddy has some testosterone to burn off. :o
Those are intesting units you posted, how do they generate electricity? It doesn't appear to be engine driven? I haven't seen anything like that in the sates.
What I really want is a generator that can deliver at least 3kw from a generator head and another 3kw in DC power. The DC power would be part of a solar system, the 3kw is what it takes to run the lights in my shop. That way I can switch just the lights back and fourth between gen power easily without disturbing the entire main breaker.
Also for shop use I'd like to hook an air compressor up directly to the engine.
Since the thread is bumped...
The Baxi is just a boiler with a Stirling engine generating electricity. The BlueGen uses a high temp fuel cell to produce electricity, and you get heat off of it.
Michael
Quote from: bergmanj on April 03, 2012, 11:25:24 AM
Bio,
Just "bumping", as I'm curious as to any futher progress with your query here.
Regards, JLB
I found a good running chevy 250 inline six for a dollar...I'm thinking about using that as my "boiler". Bigger than I need but the byproduct is heat so.....
I definately want the Generac electronic governor that you posted - that really opens up a whole lot of possible engines.
Bio,
F. Y. I: There is a very specific reason I went for the Geo 3-cyl: Less total cylinders means less "parasitic" friction internally (plus it has a "low-friction" piston-ring design). A lot of folks don't realize that this particular issue can make a very huge difference in the effective fuel "efficiency", as with less internal friction, there is more power available for external use, while using the same amount of fuel. Put another way, it will use less fuel for the same amount of external power needed. This can be upwards of 30% difference for the same application!
Regards, JLB
Bio;
How much electricity and heat do you want from the system? On one of the other forums someone mentioned a shift in perception. We talk about making electicity and recovering the heat. If you really need the heat, the amount produced while meeting your electrical needs isn't that much. At least not in the north. The perception change was: the lister/changfa/whatever engine was a fuel oil burner that would let you have electrical power. You'll have more electricity than you need, but if you're going to burn the fuel to get heat anyway, the added equipment cost is worth it. If I was one of the people with free natural gas on their property, this is what I'd be doing.
Bergmanj;
Are you saying less cylinders, but with the same displacement will get you a big savings in fuel use, or is it just that fewer cylinders means a smaller engine? Smaller engines almost always do better for a set load, since they're more highly loaded. Larger engines are more efficient if they have the same percentage of max load applied, but who needs megawatts of power in their home shop? :)
Michael
Michael,
Less Cylinders with the same displacement will reduce parasitic friction, thus increasing "efficiency" of fuel use: There are several white papers out on the web specifically addressing this and piston-ring design (one from MIT - I'll try to post the paper during my lunch break here at work). Some really interesting information; one point is that if the compression rings (especially the top one) has a "positive" twist (that is "upward" at the cylinder wall from the piston wall) built-in, this substantially reduces friction without substantially affecting compression and ignition sealing!
Most modern low-friction "european" designs now have this "twist" manufactured into the rings.
More later.
Regards, JLB
Bergmanj;
Have you seen any data on the comparison between displacement and speed? I'm thinking listeroid vs. changfa. 1/4 the displacement, but 4 times the speed. Which is more efficient? What predominates: heat loss through the cylinder walls or better combustion? Is it a wash? I know that direct injection helps on a diesel. Hmm... a DI listeroid. Talk about blown head gaskets, probably.
Michael
Michael,
In very general terms: For constant lower-speed engines (such as for 1,800 RPM generators), IMHO, least-cylinder count, large-mass (big flywheel) engines will beat anything else hands-down for fuel efficiency due to much lower parasitic losses.
Most of us "modern" folks are so used to automobile engines, that we don't think about the application.
Auto I. C. engines have historically been designed to provide maximum peak horsepower in the smallest package with "smooth-running" (read that many cylinders with overlapping power pulses), and very quick RPM-change response. This has lead to 8 or more cylinder engines of small individual cylinder displacement (relatively speaking) with very lightweight materials for "economy" and quick acceleraion. And we all tend to "stick our foot through the floor"!
Stationary I. C. engines used for constant-speed generators are much more fuel-efficient if they are built as the smallest average-horsepower needed, with a large (more massive) flywheel to "average-out" the power pulses; and, to provide "peaking" power when needed for electrical motor starts, etc.
The Geo Metro 3-cyl engine has a particular attribute of readily-available engines: It's very best fuel-use-to-power-output performance is at about 2100 RPM; and, 1,800 RPM is close to that, so it's actually very good for this generator application.
As for your question about listeroid vs changfa: I don't know. There are a lot better-informed people on here than I to answer that question.
Regards, JLB
Fella's Fella's!
Artificer there ARE IDI and DI versions both Changfa and Listeriod clones having been manufactured and used by members here. Use this sites search function and read up on the pro's and cons.
Yep correto mundo that the fewer cylinders per displacement the less ring and bearing drag.
The better the ring designs the less drag.
Heck the thinner the oil the less pumping losses.
Higher the loading the higher the the potential efficiency.
Higher the compression ratio the higher the efficiency.
Higher the operating temperature the higher the efficiency.
Yada. Yada. Yada. All become an futile exercise in counting how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.
JBL is correct that pick a realistic usable generator RPM of 1800, then an engine matched to your available fuel/power requirements that is LOCALLY available with service parts that you, your family and neighbors can live with. Build it. Just do it. Then kick you own butt finding NOS and used commercial systems for a dime on a dollar.
The 3 cylinder Metro/Suzuki type four strokes are the smallest, lightest, smoothest inline most economical GM spec'ed configuration. They wanted more power so Suzuki in there own Swifts added one more cylinder as a 1300 cc with a ~25 loss in economy. Then even up powered turbo'd that for the braggin' rights.
Fuel efficiency wise on gaseous fuel i can kick Kubota 3 cyclinder Butt with an air cooled indusrial V-twin NOT having to water pump drive, less ring and bearing drag requiring less oil pumped energy loss.
And I in turn can have my Butt kicked by a big massive ton of metal cast iron single cylinder Thumper. Or . . . a tiny modern single cylinder purpose built $30K dedicated inverter system. Posted up here to. Search it out.
Buts, and Butts add up and all cost money and time.
Efficiency costs BUCK$$$. How much money and time you willing to burn through chasing numbers and claims to fame??
Ha! Ha! $10k + and 6000 hours in the last three years chasing this stuff by me. Just ask the wife. Ask member Jens.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Steve,
Thanks for the continued interest and reply.
I need to point-out, though, that gaseous-fueled (propane / NG) is of higher efficiency when kept cooler (even cold); the drawback is that if "too" cold, condensation problems rear their ugly head in the engine, causing other "issues". My personal opinion is that about 160 deg F is a good compromise for those fuels.
Regards, JLB
Quote from: bergmanj on April 04, 2012, 06:01:22 AM
Bio,
F. Y. I: There is a very specific reason I went for the Geo 3-cyl: Less total cylinders means less "parasitic" friction internally (plus it has a "low-friction" piston-ring design). A lot of folks don't realize that this particular issue can make a very huge difference in the effective fuel "efficiency", as with less internal friction, there is more power available for external use, while using the same amount of fuel. Put another way, it will use less fuel for the same amount of external power needed. This can be upwards of 30% difference for the same application!
Regards, JLB
Right...I totally understand that, but my first objective is heat, so engine efficiency isn't a major concern. Less efficient just means more heat. Plus I have a thing for inline sixes. :P I'm thinking of using a dual engine approach, the larger I6 and then something smaller for lower heat demand, like maybe a 2 cylinder.
BioHazard
Thank you posting the information on the Generac Kit with the correct part number for the step motor. I was reading posts last year with great interest on this very topic. As I recall, another member had compatibility problems getting the controller to connect properly with the step motor. These issues caused me to hold off until I got renewed interest after reading your post. I shared your recent post (March 20th) with a couple of my friends who are also very interested. Here are a few questions, if anyone can answer, this information would be greatly appreciated:
1. My plan, is to leave the mechanical governor / spring system in place and adjust it to run at turn the ST generator head at 60 Hz with "no load". Then, mount the Generac kit with electric switches so that I can engage precise governor control. I would like to set the Generac kit up such that it "bumps" or pulls on the mechanical governor when RPM droops thus bringing the RPMs back up to maintain a 60 Hz at the ST Gen Head. Is this reasonable?
2. Before I spend $150 for the controller and $120 for the proper step motor, I really would like to know if anyone else is using these specific components to achieve precise governor control. Please advise.
3. I have actually awaken from sleep at night to go surf the web hoping to find a reasonably priced and simple kit that senses Hz from the AC lines at the generator head. Emphasis on reasonably priced and simple. Nearly everything requires a magnetic speed sensor. Regulating the governor based on ST Hz is just what I have been looking for. So here is my question after reading the service / installation manual references to the "Hz meter". Does the Generac kit actually sense AC Hz coming from the Gen Head or do the references to the Hz meter imply there is some type of Hz meter which has to be specially ordered which is compatible with the Generac controller? I know this is probably a naïve question, but if I didn't ask, I might wish I had later on, after spending almost $300. So can anyone confirm the Gererac Kit senses Hz directly from the AC L1 or L2 lines?
Bruce
Hi Fellas. A lot of the chasing around for high thermal efficiency etc becomes accademic in the end when the twin overhead toothbrush, turbo-convaluted .5cc wizz-bang only lasts about 2 weeks and costs a small fortune to repair and drives you nuts because it is running at 33,000 rpm (OK I may be pushing the boundaries of credibility here but you get my point) . Sometimes hard to argue against a good reliable dozy thump-thump-thump which uses an acceptable amount of fuel producing an acceptable amount of energy can be fixed by someone with an acceptable amount of know-how for an acceptable cost but only once in a blue moon 'coz the damn thing runs forever and sounds bloody fantastic! Of course this would be my humble opinion. Cheers, Derb.
Horsepoor,
IMHO, several years back, I pondered the same plan to use the mechanical governor, with the electronics as assist, because it seemed as if it would work great. Never did impement it to try, though. I'd certainly be very interested in the results of your implementation; as, probably, are many others here.
As previously posted here (above someplace), I used a stepper motor (free) out of an old printer: It just needs to be 12V / two-winding (4-lead), as I recall (haven't looked at it recently - and, many other "irons in the fire"). One of the Generac wiring diagrams should confirm that.
Regards, JLB
bergmanj,
Thank you for your reply. I am waiting to hear other comments from other members. If favorable, I am going to spend the money, buy a Generac kit and build / install the system.
Bruce
Bruce,
Sorry tht I didn't reply to your #3 question before: I did a lot of "bench testing" with the Generac governor electronics drive. I was able to use a signal generator at 60 Hz +/- (for testing stepper motor direction and shaft acceleration speed) down to just a few volts with it still operating properly; and, it was spec'd to bettter than 250 VAC for sensing inputs too! Very wide sense-lead operating range.
I'ts designed to be directly connectable to 120 VAC - maybe even for 240 (check some of the generac drawings to confirm); I'd use'd it directly on the 120 output (with 1K ohm 1-watt [for their 1000 V voltage rating - yes, resistors have voltage ratings!] resistors in series with each of the sensing leads, and a 0.1 uF 300V-rated non-polarized capacitor across the leads at the electronics module (to "filter" for "noise") - just for extra "protection" of the governor electronics.
Hope this helps you (and others).
Regards, JLB
Craigslist has supplied me with a 3813 Honda lawn tractor. It has a 13 hp water cooled V-twin engine. I still find them listed from time to time. I also picked up a 5 hp, 230 volt, single phase, 3515 rpm induction motor from Craigslist. I would like to get them put together before winter.
I plan to get it working on gasoline then convert it to natural gas after working some of the bugs out. I'm going to set it up for a 2 KW output and recover as much heat as possible. I'm hoping that being connected to the grid will give a fairly constant load for the governor to maintain.
Andy
Hey AndyM.
Sounds like an excellent plan.
If you post up a model/spec number for the actual engine those interested here can look it up and follow along.
For the natural gas conversion be sure and follow some of the latest discussions going on the Fuels Alternatives Board -> Methane too by Mr Bio and Mobile Bob and others.
I just this last weekend at an estate sale picked up a 10 YO Scotts rider with a puked deck to make up a co-gen system for the green house this winter using it's Kohler engine, pulleys belts and some old 80's take off DC Electrodyne alternators. Air cooled the plants won't mind the noise or a little CO/CO2 leakage. Use the engine flywheel blower to dstribute the engine/oil/exhaust heat.
Pictures now much easier to post up if you are of a mind. (use the "Additional Options" button, then "Choose File")
Regards and Welcome aboard here
Steve Unruh
Hi AndyM.
www.tractordata.com gives good base info on this machine and engine including fluid capacities. Is a 358cc/21.9 cid engine. Compression ratio is not listed but with the HP and being a Honda probably right up there at 9/1.
Is this a pushrod OHV engine or overhead cam engine?
www.planopower.com/store/honda lists model ranges and is a possible alternative parts source.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Hi SteveU,
Thanks for the welcome.
My memory failed me again. The engine is an in-line twin not a V-twin, and it is an overhead cam with an external timing belt.
I can't find the model number, only the 359 cc marking. I'll try to get some pictures up when I start working on it.
AndyM
Hey AndyM it's all good man.
The tractor data site just says "twin cylinder" and does not say the configuration the cylinders are in.
They list the engine model as a GX360K1
Google searching this as "Honda GX360K1 watercooled engine" gives some good results:
A pay for European source for a factory illustrated parts manual
An excellent 9 minute YouTube video of an owner engine removal and tear down to remove a mouse nest (and shredded mouse) fouling up the belts and pulleys.
A video of a transmission tear down and overhaul
Must be a hundred sources for oil filters
Anyhow shows this engine is a horizontal shaft. AND does answer Mr Bio original question that a water cooled manufactured by a 1st world company adaptable engine does exist!
At 2kW/h your project does sound feasible to me. I do admit I know virtually nothing about overspeed motor generating though. Other here do and are doing this.
Regards
Steve Unruh