Does this engine exist?

[BioHazard]

I want a natural gas engine that serves no other purpose than to be a boiler. The engine will have a generator attached but the electricity is a "waste" byproduct, the engine would only be run when there is a demand for heat.

My question is, does there exist such an engine at this one?
1. Can be purchased for less than $1500-2000 total for a running engine.
2. Must have built in governor.
3. Must be water cooled.
4. Is in the 5hp to 50hp range.
5. Runs on or can be converted to natural gas.
6. Horizontal crankshaft.

As hard as diesels are becoming to find, I can't think of any gas/NG engines that would fit the bill? The closest thing I can come up with is the water cooled Kawasaki V twins from Surplus Center but they are vertical engines.

Anybody ever think of converting a Changfa type engine to full natural gas operation? I know Kubota has a nice little 3 cylinder NG engine, but I think that is way out of my price range.

[dieselgman]

First idea that comes to mind... Why? There would be far too much wasted energy in this scenario. Of course the electricity could be run through additional heating elements in the boiler jacket to improve efficiency and loading so that would not be "waste".
If you have natural gas available... then a direct boiler offers the most efficient transfer of energy that I am aware of.
Many engines can be converted to run NG but cost would be the next problem... by the time you added an ignition system, you would certainly blow out a $2,000 budget - even if using a low to no-cost basic engine. The Germans (and other Europeans) have fine tuned a number of micro-chp units for mass consumption, but alas - not in the low-end price range either.  

dieselgman

[Thob]

Second thing that comes to my mind (after Gary's first thing) is an old oil well pump jack engine.  Something like a Fairbanks Morse Z 118, 208, or bigger; or maybe a Witte 98RC.  You'd have to find a bargain on a used one to get within your price range, and probably have to repair it yourself to save money.  I have no idea how efficient these engines are, as they ran on well head gas (free), so they didn't worry about efficiency.  These engines are normally set up with a carb that can run on natural gas or propane.  I'd suspect that at least 1/3 of the heat energy goes out the exhaust pipe, so you would want to recover heat there as well.  If you live near oil well country, and they are in the process of changing out engines for electric motors, you might find one cheap - if you beat the scrappers to it.  Running, ready to go, these engines can sell for many times your budget.

I've been thinking about getting one of these myself, but simply because I have a 500 gallon propane tank out back.  It runs the furnace and water heater, but neither works without electricity.  Seems like it would be a shame to have a bunch of fuel out back but no way to use it in an emergency.  Propane doesn't go bad over time like gas or diesel does.  Plus I want a slow turning engine with big flywheels that I can go run on occasion when I need a little therapy.  Just crank it up, sit back in your rocker, and thump, thump, thump - all of your troubles go away. 

[Henry W]

I want a natural gas engine that serves no other purpose than to be a boiler. The engine will have a generator attached but the electricity is a "waste" byproduct, the engine would only be run when there is a demand for heat.

My question is, does there exist such an engine at this one?
1. Can be purchased for less than $1500-2000 total for a running engine.
2. Must have built in governor.
3. Must be water cooled.
4. Is in the 5hp to 50hp range.
5. Runs on or can be converted to natural gas.
6. Horizontal crankshaft.

As hard as diesels are becoming to find, I can't think of any gas/NG engines that would fit the bill? The closest thing I can come up with is the water cooled Kawasaki V twins from Surplus Center but they are vertical engines.

Anybody ever think of converting a Changfa type engine to full natural gas operation? I know Kubota has a nice little 3 cylinder NG engine, but I think that is way out of my price range.

I sent you a couple PM's.

Henry

[BioHazard]

First idea that comes to mind... Why? There would be far too much wasted energy in this scenario. Of course the electricity could be run through additional heating elements in the boiler jacket to improve efficiency and loading so that would not be "waste".

The electricity wouldn't actually be "waste", but a byproduct nonetheless. It would certainly go to good use. I would be happy with an overall 80% efficiency rating...I think that's possible.

Second thing that comes to my mind (after Gary's first thing) is an old oil well pump jack engine.  Something like a Fairbanks Morse Z 118, 208, or bigger; or maybe a Witte 98RC. 

I would LOVE to have something like that but they are pretty rare/non existant here in Oregon. Shipping one in would be a real killer, and I'm not quite sure I want to take on a rebuild project like that.

[LowGear]

If you want one - just ask.  I saw a bunch of them on this website a couple of months ago just sleeping along side a metal shed somewhere in oil land USA.  They were included in a thread about one being restored to near showroom condition.

Casey

[BioHazard]

If you want one - just ask.  I saw a bunch of them on this website a couple of months ago just sleeping along side a metal shed somewhere in oil land USA.  They were included in a thread about one being restored to near showroom condition.

Casey

Unfortunately I don't think one of those + shipping + rebuild is in my budget. I kinda want something turn key. Makes me sad to hear they're being scrapped though....

[Thob]

I think the engines you're referring to are located somewhere near Tulsa, OK.  Such a deal I have for you - I'll drive up to Tulsa, pick up a FM 208, and meet you North of Denver, Colorado.  You bring about the same amount of pounds of Lister CS (I think 2x CS 6-1 will do it), and I'll swap you even.        I'll even bring my engine hoist for loading/unloading.

[cschuerm]

That's my FB ZC 346 in the other thread.  Yes, there are many in the Tulsa OK area.  Very nice, smooth, well-built engines.  $2000 will get you a project, but you'll be in the $4-5k range for a completely rebuilt and ready to run engine.  I'd be happy to help find one if you're interested as I've made a lot of contacts in the "community" while restoring mine.

Chris

[LowGear]

Magnificent engines but many clicks past my piggy bank.  I see natural gas Wittes every once in a while but these units too have moved into stratosphere as far as my pocket book goes.

I wonder how long these old guys will set / lay around before someone just lets go?

Casey

[bergmanj]

Biohazard,

Geo Metro 3-cyl 1 L engine (~$200.00) coupled to an Onan CCK 4KW gen end (~$200.00); use a Generac governor electronics (~170.00) driving a stepper motor (free) on the caburetor throttle-plate, and add an LPG (propane) / Natural Gas fuel adapter (for those fuels  ~$70.00).  Use a stainless swimming pool heat exchanger (~400.00) to run the cooling system water through to capture exhaust heat too.  Have a base and adapter fabricated (~$200.00 ??) Total will be well within your proposed budget.

I've done this.  Had an adapter plate made to match output clutch shaft with generator head; left engine flywheel, clutch, and pressure-plate in-place to provied additional "flywheel" mass for electrical surges.

Regards,   JLB

[SteveU.]

Hey great explanation JLB.
Very practical down to Earth obtainium solution.
Very smart on keeping the additional Free flywheel mass.
I do not know if CCK's were two pole 3600 RPM or four pole 1800 RPM.
Can you confirm your operating RPM please?

Best Regards
Washington State Steve Unruh

[TimSR2]

CCK's were 1800 rpm

[BioHazard]

Biohazard,

Geo Metro 3-cyl 1 L engine (~$200.00) coupled to an Onan CCK 4KW gen end (~$200.00); use a Generac governor electronics (~170.00) driving a stepper motor (free) on the caburetor throttle-plate, and add an LPG (propane) / Natural Gas fuel adapter (for those fuels  ~$70.00).  Use a stainless swimming pool heat exchanger (~400.00) to run the cooling system water through to capture exhaust heat too.  Have a base and adapter fabricated (~$200.00 ??) Total will be well within your proposed budget.

I've done this.  Had an adapter plate made to match output clutch shaft with generator head; left engine flywheel, clutch, and pressure-plate in-place to provied additional "flywheel" mass for electrical surges.

Regards,   JLB

I like the way you think.  I'm sure everybody here would love to see some pictures of your setup. Could you elaborate on the Generac governor?

[bergmanj]

Folks,

Very sorry, don't have any pictures.  Looks crude (as my prototype), but works fine.

Governor is Generac (not particularily "in-love" with Generac); don't have electronics model number handy as was purchased several years back. It's one of theirs that uses the generated 60 Hz to derive control; works with a 4-wire stepper motor.

I have it coupled to the throttle plate via a home3-made "coil-spring" (about ten turns of so of stainless wire) wound slightly tighter than the shaft diameters, then forced onto each shaft.  This kind of coupling helps provide a "cusion" for sudden changes and inherent vibration, and helps with any slight misalignment of the two shafts.

That's about it, except to note that the CCK generators can really take an awful beating with regard to overload and surges: Under room-temperature circumstances, they can usually "take" 150% of rated load for many, many, minutes (1/2 to 1 hr??), and a 200% surge load for up to about 30 seconds (way "overbuilt" according to today's "standards").

For more information on these old Onan's, go to the "Smokstak Onan" forum (easy to search-out).

Must start work now.

Regards,   JLB