A Different Perspective on Automotive Alternator Direct DC Charging

[OFFGriddnPat]

Teach, teach...   Why would you send me over to a sight in NZ on car batt's?

Everyone knows those NewZealand guys are a few fries short of a Happy Meal ...

I read through the WHOLE thing and still, I couldn't find the term "grid plate corrosion" mentioned anywhere. May have missed it.

[Lloyd]

OK- How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

Fire away.

Huh? That's your answer?  Sending me over to a 38 or some page thread?  

You're Kiddn' Right? ....

You could learn a lot by reading...no kidding

[OFFGriddnPat]

We posted at the same time.  Please address my last 2 posted questions directly here in this thread.,  Please.

[Lloyd]

Teach, teach...   Why would you send me over to a sight in NZ on car batt's?

Everyone knows those NewZealand guys are a few fries short of a Happy Meal ...

I read through the WHOLE thing and still, I couldn't find the term "grid plate corrosion" mentioned anywhere. May have missed it.

sure must have

Plate or Grid Related Corrosion:

Grid corrosion of the Positive plates within a battery is a normal 'end of battery life' condition that is commonly caused due to higher operating temperatures, overcharging or loss of electrolyte fluid.  Of the positive and negative plates within a battery, it is the positive plates where the grid metal can completely oxidise and disintegrate due to these operating conditions.   Different alloys added to the positive grid lead can have an affect on the corrosion rate.  Antimonial lead grids generally have a higher corrosion resistance than calcium lead grids, and along with higher volumes of electrolyte above the plates, can help overcome this problem, allowing batteries to operate more successfully in harsh conditions.

Soft Positive Plate Material ("mushy plates").  This is a condition usually resulting from high operating temperatures or overcharging.  Often, both conditions may have occurred.

Sulphation.  This occurs when a battery stands in a partially or fully discharged state for long periods of time, or is continually undercharged.  As a result of these conditions the active lead material on the plates becomes lead sulphate which also hardens the plates.   Depending on the length of time the battery has been in this condition, the sulphation may be irreversible.  In addition, if the electrolyte level in the battery is low, the exposed part of the plates will become inactive and sulphated.  Therefore batteries with higher electrolyte levels will go a long way to reducing problems due to sulphation and assisting longer battery life.

[OFFGriddnPat]

OK- thank you for the definition. I'm multitasking here with a machine problem. There are other terms used for that condition I believe as well.

Now back to my question:

How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

Please don't send me to a 38 page thread. I don't have time for that.  I'm prepared to explain anything I written by my direct experience and what I have learned from (Experts) in home off grid
systems such as mine.

[mobile_bob]

Pat

let me see if i can follow your plan

you stated somewhere that you are using a 63amp chinese knockoff of the little delco? right?

and i am supposed to believe that it is able to produce 95amps at something over 28volts for 4 hours, and do so for
how many years?  (i think you stated 3 years on the current alternator?)

we are all trying to understand where you are coming from, what exactly you are doing, and above all we are trying to be helpful.

having said that, i have to take exception based on my experience (which goes back well over 30 years now) with delco, motorola, leece neville,
prestolite, and a few other japanese makes.

in my opinion the little delco (aside from being a cheap alternative for a little backup charger) is a total waste of time for something that will be called upon for serious charging.

that little delco on its best day might be somewhere just north of 50% efficient, and "maybe" a bit over 65% "if" you run it at 28.8volts "and" no more than maybe 40amps.  even then its lifespan will  be limited with most folks, which is not to say your installation has not been successful
at charging your batteries, i am just saying there are better and more efficient ways of getting the job done.

you come along as a newbie spouting on about how folks are wasting money or whatever with purpose built regulators and so far something about what is reported just doesn't add up, at all!

as i stated before what you are doing, folks did with a reostat back in the 1880's and they realized that it was a very poor way to control charging, so the hunt was on for a means to automate the babysitting of the reostat, and the mechanical regulator was born of that need.  the mechanical
regulator was far better than running with a reostat, however a better regulator was needed and everyone knew it. it took another half century
for solid state components (transistors) to begin to show up and the electronic regulator was born.

the 3 step regulators were born out of the very real need to effectively, safely and efficiently charge offgrid batteries by the marine industry.

the boat guys have long known that a reostat can be used in a pinch to get the boat back to the dock, however it is used only as a last ditch
shtf situation when all else fails.  under those conditions, human life is more important than battery life.

i would suggest reading up on what the marine boys have done for years, read up on what sandia labs have tested and proven, perhaps get a copy of "living on 12volts" and "wiring for 12volts"  (amplepower press) both available on ebay from time to time, and learn from the guys that frequent this forum.

btw, i can produce damn close to 10kw/hrs per US gallon of diesel with my rig, that being 28.8volts DC @ 100amps, that is probably about at least 3x better fuel economy than what you are doing with  your system.   (actually i am very tired, long day and all that, i would have to do the math)

later on that

bob g

[mobile_bob]

Pat:

with all due respect

"i don't have time to read 30 odd pages"  (paraphrased)

dude, please 

if you don't take the time to read, please don't ask us to explain what has taken years and thousands of pages of reading, along
with decades of hands on experience, R&D, testing and experimentation.

if you don't have time to read, i don't have any more time to devote to this topic

bob g

[Lloyd]

OK- thank you for the definition. I'm multitasking here with a machine problem. There are other terms used for that condition I believe as well.

Now back to my question:

How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

Please don't send me to a 38 page thread. I don't have time for that.  I'm prepared to explain anything I written by my direct experience and what I have learned from (Experts) in home off grid
systems such as mine.

Pat,

I do system design/build for on-board marine power, including bat banks, gens, inverters, solar, panels, and wire ways. On average I do 4-5 systems a year, many exceeding your application.

If you read the link to my post on this forum, I think you will find a large amount of information that would aid in managing your system.

Lloyd

lloyd

[OFFGriddnPat]

OK let address that BOB,

I'm being told to go read (and I did), now you guys give me the courtesy of accurately reading what I post.

I achieve 95 amps by running 2 dc gen setups on my house system.  One -6.5 honda @40 amps (24v system reference) One 16hp honda @ 55 amps (24v system reference).

I further gave info on just the 6.5 honda system hear today in your comment that it could not "Boil" my 12 L16's.

There's no spouting involved.

[OFFGriddnPat]

With all due respect Lloyd/Bob, that sounds like you have much experience. But you are telling me I can't do what I do with my setup, and then just say "Go Read" when I state L16's in my system should be equalized at 31 volts for an hour, and by running the 6.5 Honda today at 96% 29.9v I'm damaging the plates.

You guys can't have it both ways.

First you tell me my "Little Trickle" charger can't possibly do that much charging, then you say I'm damaging my plates.

Which is it?

[LowGear]

Yo Patrick,

Lighten up.  Alternatives are the spice of life.  I kind of burned these two fellows out a couple of months ago on battery terminals and WVO processing.  Please take a moment and consider the amount of time they've given you.  I'm believe my programs are much improved as a result of their council.  I came to the understanding that I just can't perform at their level of expertise.  And I might be even slower than you to change a working system with a 10 year history. 

We all know your system works just fine for you.  If you want to see something interesting take a look at this article that mike90045 contributed a few months ago.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

Easy reading with good illustrations - my kind of meat.

Casey

[mobile_bob]

Pat

go back and reread what i have posted

no where did i say your system won't work, because it will

is it the best system?  for the vast majority of applications no it isn't! for the majority it would not only be wasteful of fuel but also
damaging to the batteries and in the end be so damn costly that i would not want to be associated with it.

here is the thing, this forum (recently passing it second anniversary) is populated by folks that range from moderately serious about these
sorts of systems to down right rabid about them.  some of us have spent literally thousands of hours reading, researching, developing and
in some cases many thousands of dollars as well along the way.

we all started with a briggs and stratton, a delco and a reostat!  (or a tecumseh, fomoco, and a reostat) and my bet there are many that even
used a head light dimmer reostat out of an old car to manage the field of their first gensets.

for me that was about 1972 or so,

we learned early on that many things happened, while the expedient thing (getting the battery charged) was accomplished, we got tired of
carrying fuel, listening the the engine run hours on end,  things flowing up, batteries getting cooked (we didn't have a thousand amp/hrs so
a 50amp charger could seriously overheat and murder a small bank typical of the offgrid experience back then.  it was better than nothing, but
only marginally better than simply using the oem regulator which looking back had more going for it than we thought at the time.

i digress

the thing is there are those of us that are very serious about efficiency, (component and overall)  and have learned that there simply is no more effective means to accomplishing high charging efficiency without some form of sophisticated regulation/control over the alternator.

it just isn't going to happen with a delco dn10, i am sorry but again it isn't going to work for the vast majority of folks.  i am not saying it isn't working for you, all i am saying is "i would bet a dollar to a dog turd, that such a system would be a dismal failure for 95% of offgridders"

i also know that folks like Lloyd, Ronmar, myself and a host of others on this forum (tired so forgive me if i don't list them all) could build a system such as yours, and make it work just as you have.... but why?  

and i also know that these same folks would never promote the use of such a system as you have here for anything other than standby or emergency use.

at this point it looks to me that you are the one that needs to sell your system design to us, not the other way around.

bob g

[OFFGriddnPat]

Humm yes, I went back and see some edits have been made that I directly addressed.

In any event, I'm not trying to sell you. I don't need your business, I was merely pointing out the way I do it, then after comments stating it could not be done, or if done it must produce poor results,  I had given specifics. I can give more specifics. My results are here are certainly not that poor as written.

It still has not been shown to me as to why as yet. The alts I use perform better than you guys claim, but to each his own. No matter.

If any one here cares to know more about my setup, just ask. It can be operated safely and I think my first set of L16's that were in the house for 9 years, and now have been in the shop for over 3 (as a pass through amp storage only) and have had nothing else but my DC charger and float charging from my solar panels and Trace SW4024 speak for themselves.  No damage done there. You have to have basic common sense to run a system like this. Plug it into anything, pull start and walk away with no understanding is not suggested.

AND if you care to learn more about care of L16 batteries from folks who have used them for home business and sales for as long as they've been made, contact the folks at backwoods solar in Idaho.  That's who I've done business with all these years and their advise has been dead on.  Good informative wesbite as well.

If anyone cares to learn how I run my machine shop with industrial machines using an off grid system, I again am happy to answer questions, give examples, pictures, yadda, yadda.

I'm not selling anything system related. Just sharing knowledge that works here, and I use.

So like I mentioned before, Bob and Lloyyd, I still am interested in the best components that will save me money in fuels.  Engine? Alt? Controllers?

Would like to hear what the best is for my Listers as well.

-edit- or if you prefer, tell me to "go read" with a link. On specifics, component models, etc.

[mobile_bob]

Pat

let me try a different approach

1. no one says your system won't work, because it will work.

2. many of us have worked with or used the same sort of system.

3. there are better, more efficient and safer methods of control

4. i am not suggesting that you are trying to sell us anything, what i meant was
you are trying to convince us that your system is the way to go. or at least that is how i have
interpreted your posting.

if you would like to know why your system works as well as it does,  i think that has been explained for the most part

1. you have a relatively large battery bank

2. you have a relatively small charging capacity

3. you monitor your state of charge and shutdown before things get to hot/overcharged

4. you manage your loads well,

5. you likely don't go under 40 or 50% SOC, with any regularity, and

6. you are running the delco which i assume started out life as a 12volt nominal unit, at 24volts nominal with the reostat control
which will increase the efficiency of the alternator provided you spin it fast enough not to have to overamp the rotor, and not pull
more than about 60% of rated ampacity of the delco alternator.

having said all that, i don't know you from adam, have never seen your system, however i bet i am right on more counts than not with my
listings.

now if you are serious about wanting to reduce your fuel consumption, you might want to consider stepping up to a more substantial alternator such as the leece neville/prestolite 555 jho series alternator, remove the external piggy back regulator (fit it with a toggle if you like)
and control it with a balmar mc612 as outline in my white paper , so that you can do an honest 28.8volts at 100amps all day long with efficiency exceeding 80%.

you will need to turn the alternator to 4800rpm for good cooling and to allow for about 3.5amps of rotor excitation current, the alternator will be quite warm but no where near its rated 205 degree ambient conditions, drive it with a water cooled diesel such as a s195 changfa and you will get very close to 10kw/hrs from a gallon of pump diesel with the engine turning 1800.  you could probably get about 8kw/hrs from a good 6/1 driving the same.

you could substitute a sterling 3 step controller (available on ebay for less than half the cost of a balmar) or a xantrex or a few others which work as well in basic function.

with the programmable controllers you get so much control, so many parameters can be set and monitored, your alternator heat load can be monitored and therefore protected from burnout, the batteries can and will get temp compensated charge if you use the optional sensor too.

yes it will cost a few more bucks, even if you bought a new alternator, and new balmar controller and set everything up right i would bet you could do it for around 600-750 bucks, and substantially cheaper if you shop well.

the difference in fuel savings would make a payoff very short for an offgrid home, even shorter with the business also deriving power from the system.

more later, going to bed

bob g

[Ronmar]

I achieve 95 amps by running 2 dc gen setups on my house system.  One -6.5 honda @40 amps (24v system reference) One 16hp honda @ 55 amps (24v system reference).

Well one place where you could gain some efficiency is in your HP usage.  That 6.5HP Honda should be able to sustain 3KW of electrical load on a generator.  40A @ 24V is 960W...  The 16HP honda should be good for 8KW of electrical load, you are loading it with 1320W.  You could get your entire 95A out of the 6.5 engine by installing both alternators on it, and still have room to spare...  In terms of fuel consumption, the first KW produced by a generator set is the most expensive.  Each sucessive KW produced by that generator set cost's substantially less fuel.  One reason for this is that a lightly loaded engine is typically not as efficient as an engine loaded upwards of 75% capacity.  I will post a fuel vs load table for my 6/1 later today.