A Different Perspective on Automotive Alternator Direct DC Charging

[Lloyd]

Funny thing is Pat has himself so well fooled that he can't see why everyone else isn't fooled.

Running a three-phase system on single phase isn't new to most here, what he doesn't get is there is a loss of about 30% of available power on that converter, and that the efficiency hit is even greater.

That's been my whole part of the discussion, is efficiency...which I include as not only the power effy..., but the fuel eff..., the maint. effy...life of equipment eff...

And finally the dollars in-put to the return on investment.

It's clear that Pat has some knowledge of power, but doesn't understand the law of conservation, nor does he have much knowledge of how batteries really work. Anyone with battery knowledge would know what positive grid plat corrosion is.

So I for one have to question his claims, because I have seen his knowledge as written, to come up short of what reality really is.

So my point was to be careful of the recommendations, I'm sure he won't be there to warranty the advise you follow from him.

Lloyd

[OFFGriddnPat]

That's astounding!

Gee Lloyd, you're so clairvoyant that you know how I run 3 phase machines to work on single phase, even to go as far to figure I don't realize what efficiency I must be loosing.

You must have ESP right?

This is why I have a little trouble talking with the Experts like yourself.

Now had you asked once, politely, how I convert these machines to run I would be happy to tell you.  But you instead instigate a debate, based on your vast knowledge.

I don't look at that as being kind or particularly friendly. That went over well on the playground in elementary school, and evidently is alive and well here.

You have a neat little world here in this forum. Stick with it.

I made offers in posts above and will stick with that.

Bob- that email was sent on 10-4-11 from  West Coast Engineering.

Cheers.

[mobile_bob]

if as i assume happened, the email from october ended up in my junk folder and it was long ago purged.

if you have a sent copy or draft, please resend it, i would be most interested in reading it.

bob g

[Lloyd]

That's astounding!

Gee Lloyd, you're so clairvoyant that you know how I run 3 phase machines to work on single phase, even to go as far to figure I don't realize what efficiency I must be loosing.

You must have ESP right?

This is why I have a little trouble talking with the Experts like yourself.

Now had you asked once, politely, how I convert these machines to run I would be happy to tell you.  But you instead instigate a debate, based on your vast knowledge.

I don't look at that as being kind or particularly friendly. That went over well on the playground in elementary school, and evidently is alive and well here.

You have a neat little world here in this forum. Stick with it.

I made offers in posts above and will stick with that.

Bob- that email was sent on 10-4-11 from  West Coast Engineering.

Cheers.

Pat,

You really are very funny.

Why all the enigma...if you really have a better mouse trap, and want to share it then share it. But you see you really come here and say this and this, but don't really say how and why....then when someone says hey wait that defies laws of reality...you don't back it up...but claim you could but it would be a waste of time, or you're just to busy to deal with it.

Get it all out in the open.

But I'd say you have well demonstrated that you real knowledge of how things work is already demonstrated.

If you have ever spent anytime on this forum, you would know that there are many here helping many. If someone, doesn't matter who, states something out of norm, and someone says prove it, and it's provable...they do.

You not so much.

Lloyd

[Lloyd]

Well Bob you make some good points. Pretty much changed the argument all together for lack of a better term, and the argument towards me here has flip flopped more than a politician. That's why I don't have the energy for a forum like this.

Please explain...hell go one step further and show us what you mean.

I spent the afternoon looking for a flipflop....

Didn't find it...So enlighten us.

I don't love fried Crow....but I do eat it when required...I'm sure you would love to feed it to me...SO Here IS, your chance.

L

[Horsepoor]

Enough time wasted trying to enlighten offgridpat - hopeless, gee.

[BigGreen]

WOW, I just stumbled across this one and I had to pop up a bowl of popcorn to get me through all this.
The one thing I got out of it is that stuart, I mean Pat most likely can't pull a consistant 95A out of his 6.5ph Honda because his delco is very inefficient. A more efficient alt better designed for the task wold have no problem.
Pat, if you have a better mouse trap then by all means, please share. I really would like to know.
Later  

[akghound]

Greetings Pat.
I too live off grid. I would really like to know how you are converting from single phase of an invertor to 3 phase. I am currently running a ST head off of a Kubota tractor. Sort of a long story of being broke and having unfortunate breakdowns that got me there. Right now I'm simply using 120vac but as you know can go to 220 single phase with the gen head.
Ken Gardner

[OFFGriddnPat]

Greetings Pat.
I too live off grid. I would really like to know how you are converting from single phase of an invertor to 3 phase. I am currently running a ST head off of a Kubota tractor. Sort of a long story of being broke and having unfortunate breakdowns that got me there. Right now I'm simply using 120vac but as you know can go to 220 single phase with the gen head.
Ken Gardner

Awesome Ken,

I think off gridders are the some of the last rugged individualists left in America. Folks who don't want to be coddled or held by the hand, and have no problem putting out a little extra effort to make things work.

Money is always tight, and one thing many people don't realize is when you live off grid in a remote area, you need backup systems. Backup generators and equipment. I follow close to a 3 backup rule. This is why I run alternators for generators as I can have backups ready to roll on a moment's notice, and afford to do so. I care for my batteries based on the manufacturers suggestions. And yes I do it manually for the most part, which requires attention and monitoring, unless the suns strong and in that case, my house system float charging is controlled by the Trace. If someone would not be able to do that, I suggest a charge controller like these guys suggest or inverter based programmable charging.

I don't convert single phase power from an inverter to 3 phase as a whole. What I do is convert my machines to run on single phase, all accept in case I want to run an existing 3 phase AC motor, then I use a VFD (variable frequency drive).

Most all commercial metal shop industry standard CNC machines (computer numerical control), are 3phase simply because all industrial shops are wired for 3 phase. It's standard. Thing is the only thing that's 3 phase on most of these machines is the the main spindle drive motor, and the coolant pumps. That's it!

All other systems- the computer controller, the servo drive amps are all 110VAC, as most all servo axes drives are DC motors.

So- what you do is swap out the coolant pump for a 110VAC pump, and address the main spindle motor issue, and then you can take advantage of a single phase 110VAC inverter and use it's pure amperage to run your machines.

Spindle drive motors are either AC or DC. If you have a DC motor, you're already off to the races, because most all DC motors are powered by a servo drive amp that is 110VAC. No conversion needed, as with my Hardinge CHNC. It has a large Porter Peerless DC spindle motor. There's 3phase connections on the huge control panel input of this machine, and it ultimately is all routed 110VAC to everything but the coolant pump.

All you have to do is have a 110VAC inverter large enough to handle the amp draw, and a battery bank large enough, coupled with enough amps coming in to keep ahead. It's exactly like water being poured from a pitcher- to keep it at a certain level, as much needs to at least be coming in as going out.

This machine running with my most power intensive part turning programs draws no more than 40 amps, and that's only for short period peaks.  With my Outback inverter that's rated somewhere around 60 amps and 12 L16's (old worn L16's I may add) allows a 9hp Honda engine, turning a Delco alt to run CNC shop machines. And do it with 2 gallons per day on average.

That's not efficient enough for some guys here I gather, but it's plenty for me, for now. And I think for less than $10 in fuel, it's till cheaper than the cost of industrial 3phase commercial shop power.  Not bad for an off gridder.

If you wish Ken, I will go into the other 3 phase drive motor conversion options for peak efficiency that I have done and use here (that means the lowest power consumption and costs, and replacement/ maintenance costs), for lathes, mills, manual or CNC  that allow you to run from a single phase 110VAC inverter system, and yes I dare say a Napa alternator that cost $40, and lasts years. 3 years to be exact on the very same one I use for my shop with the 9hp Honda. 7 years is my longest running delco with this type of purpose. My first one.

I've got to get the wood stove fired up in the shop

Pat-

[BigGreen]

No doubt the delco is working for you, but at a cost. Lets look at this another way: You certainly want to maximize your profit. What if you could produce the same usable power for half the fuel cost you currently spend? You say you used the same delco for 7 years. How much did you spend on fuel in that 7 years? Divide that in half, subtract the price of a more efficient power producer and that is your potential loss. I believe that is the root of this whole discussion. It's not can you but it's should you. It's finding the most efficient path to take. If you plan on doing this for many more years you would benefit financially from generating power in a more effecient manner. The delco should be plan C in your 3 tier failure plan. It certainly is a way to get there but at an uneccesary cost.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not kicking on you and I hope you do not feel that I am. I'm just responding to what I read.
Dave

[Lloyd]

Pat it's clear you don't understand the Law of Conservation. Second you should of stated how I converted my three phase machines to single phase machines....not how I run my three phase machines on single phase.

Next commercial 3 phase is an increase in efficiency, so converting to single phase is a big hit. You would have done well better to use a 3 phase inverter, rather then convert the machines to single phase, it might have even been cheaper in total costs.

The table below show the difference between how you system compares to how my system runs, and the associated costs.

My system runs well below the manufactures ratings for both the engine, and the alternator. Because I  also capture waste heat for domestic hot water, it increases my total efficiency. With your air cooled engines you can't capture waste heat

Gen lloyd's Pat's 1 Pat's 2

Chg. V 14.8 29 29

Chg. A 250 30 95

Watts 6500 870 2755

Runtime 1.5 5 2.5

watts p/run time 9750 4350 6887.5

KwHr 9.75 4.35 6.8875

Lts p/run time 1 3.73 9.325

watts p/Ltr 9750 1166.219839 738.6058981

fuel costs p/run $0.67 $3.70 $9.25

fuel costs Kwhr $0.07 $0.85 $1.34

[mike90045]

Huh?  What does the crimped metal base at the bottom of the slug do ?   Is that a "gas check" ?