A Different Perspective on Automotive Alternator Direct DC Charging

[OFFGriddnPat]

Right now with what I'm running on the house system I get at total of 95 amps @24v for about 4 hours continuous on about 2.5 gallons of gas.

I say for chinese knock off engines and $36 alternators warranted for 3 years that's not bad.

Show me specifics on a setup.  Engines, components, the whole setup and I will take a look at it.

[Lloyd]

And your particular circumstances, very large bank, relatively small charging source is why it works for you.  You are basically just a little over a trickle charge for that large a bank... 

Really?  "trickle charge"

Uh at what measure is 40 to 55 amps @24v a trickle?

I see here there's many preconceived notions and opinions on the forum.

Pat,

Based on the size of your bat bank 12 L16's your bank is as said before  between 1110 and 990 amp hrs. So 40-55 amps is a trickle charge, and most likely won't even bubble the bat bank during bulk charge. 40 to 55 amps would be about the starting current at the beginning of the absorption cycle.

Constant undercharging is the biggest act to murder a bank.

A bank your size should be able to sustain a constant load of 56 amps for 20 hrs...I'll be willing to bet if you put that load test on your bank you'll find that you hit 24.4v in about 3-4 hrs...this will demonstrate a highly sulfated bat bank based on the numbers you have reported below.

No preconceived notions just fact for me.

and 95 amps in four hours is as about as inefficient as you can get, as a matter of fact I'll bet that charging thru an inverter from the grid would be 3-4 times as cost efficient. I know your off grid, but you are paying a premium.

What is your total 24 hr load uasage before charging...do you have a bat monitor...so that you actually know how many amps you use and charge?

Lloyd

[Lloyd]

Right now with what I'm running on the house system I get at total of 95 amps @24v for about 4 hours continuous on about 2.5 gallons of gas.

I say for chinese knock off engines and $36 alternators warranted for 3 years that's not bad.

Show me specifics on a setup.  Engines, components, the whole setup and I will take a look at it.

Pat
95 amps @ 24v is about 2280 watts, my dc diesel bat charger produced about 3600 watts per 1 liter per 1 hr, and did this every other day for 28 days straight this past August.

You can figger the difference in efficiency 1 US gal. is 3.73 liters.

By the way if you get 95 amps off the alternator in 4 hrs that means the alt is only producing 23 amps.

lloyd

[OFFGriddnPat]

OK- I don't follow you guys. I'm a little slow at times, plus I have a wall open here in the shop to the rain and cold, from getting my newest Hardinge CNC machine in so bare with me.

My whole point of posting here is when I saw comments telling a guy who was trying to build a charger for his system with a 2 hp engine, to look at regulators, etc, is off the mark.  2 or 2.5 hp for an alternator system is indeed a trickle charger.

How in the world is "95 amps off the alternator in 4 hrs that means the alt is only producing 23 amps".   Only producing 23 amps measured by an amp meter on a 24v system? How do you determine that? (I have 95 amps continuous... CONTINUOUS.)

Won't even boil? I've got the little 6.5 running with the bank over 29v gassing and boiling as we speak.

That 95 amps on my system is the equivalent of roughly 3.8kw of the Semiens PV panels I currently own. I wish I had 3.8kw of panels.

Now I don't mean to be disrespectful, or flame anyone. I know my system is limited for certain, but not even close to what you guys say it's doing.

My goal ultimate here is to produce the best fuel efficient DC charging system.

[OFFGriddnPat]

SHeez? No boil? Can't even close to 29v?

I just went to shutdown my little backup, uh "Babbysit" my 6.5 honda dc system. I fired it up about 3 hours ago. Trimetric was showing about 86 percent.  The Trimetric now shows right before shudown 96% 29.9 volts, batteries boiling and gassing.

THing only holds less than a gallon, and I bet there's a 1/4 left.

Trickle charge? ... 

As the kids say, "Yo" -this is not supposed to be the cat's meow DC system, but with my hands full with other tasks it's working pretty darn well, for peanuts in cost.

[OFFGriddnPat]

I see I'm gonna have some FUN messin' with you guys ...

OK- here's a riddle for you DC gurus...

Right now I'm running a Hardinge CHNC lathe- CNC with Fagor 8025 industry standard computer control, an industrial 3phase 230 VAC FLA 30 3.8kw machine all day, day in and day out with a 9hp Honda turning a Delco DN10 alt in the manner described above with the throttle currently set at about  25% over idle for the part I'm running right now.

How can this possibly be?  ...

....

[Lloyd]

OK- I don't follow you guys. I'm a little slow at times, plus I have a wall open here in the shop to the rain and cold, from getting my newest Hardinge CNC machine in so bare with me.

My whole point of posting here is when I saw comments telling a guy who was trying to build a charger for his system with a 2 hp engine, to look at regulators, etc, is off the mark.  2 or 2.5 hp for an alternator system is indeed a trickle charger.

How in the world is "95 amps off the alternator in 4 hrs that means the alt is only producing 23 amps".   Only producing 23 amps measured by an amp meter on a 24v system? How do you determine that? (I have 95 amps continuous... CONTINUOUS.)

Won't even boil? I've got the little 6.5 running with the bank over 29v gassing and boiling as we speak.

That 95 amps on my system is the equivalent of roughly 3.8kw of the Semiens PV panels I currently own. I wish I had 3.8kw of panels.

Now I don't mean to be disrespectful, or flame anyone. I know my system is limited for certain, but not even close to what you guys say it's doing.

My goal ultimate here is to produce the best fuel efficient DC charging system.

Hi Pat,

No flames here, at least I don't see any, hell I don't even smell smoke.

We need to start by getting on the same page.

watts=volts X amps

95 amps X 24v = 2280 watts

amps = watts / volts

3800 watts /  24 volts = 158 amps

If your sitting at 29.9 volts and boiling your over charging your bats, which causes grid plate corrosion... and certainly a proper regulator would be of aid.

5 things can cause a bat to boil

1. over voltage during the absorption cycle

2. over current during an absorption cycle

3. a battery being charged at elevated temperatures

4. sulfated plates, causing elevated temp. as a result of constant undercharging

5. corroded positive plates, causing elevated temp, as a result of constant overcharging

All of these symptoms can be remedied by proper regulation.

lloyd

[OFFGriddnPat]

"grid plate corrosion"

There goes those fancy words again ...

How in the world (seem to be using that term a lot here) is boiling 12- L16's at 29.9 volts damaging, when:

1.  It's cloudy out, and I'm overdue for an equalize.

2. This bank should be equalized at 31 volts for about an hour.

How is this causing "grid plate corrosion"? What ever that means... Hummm?

[Lloyd]

me thinks you need to do a little reading

http://www.operatingtech.com/lib/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20battery%20Charging.pdf

Trying to give advise to the masses you should at least know the basics. This community is here for sharing and learning. But everyone should be cautioned about learning from someone whom doesn't quite understand the basics of which they're teaching.

I am happy to help, when you're ready to learn..but please don't try to teach yet.


Lloyd

[OFFGriddnPat]

OK- How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

I read all the time. I've been doing this a long time. My results have been pretty darn good and I'm in good company. Guys that have been in this business for years and have been using these systems daily for probably 20 some years longer than me,.

I got to get something to eat here,. Mom's gone for the night.

I will be happy to back up ANY thing I claim at any time. Do I claim to know it all know? No. I have been known to make a mistake from time to time as well ....

Fire away.

[OFFGriddnPat]

I may ad I'm not trying to "Teach" anyone.

Disclaimer:

Kids ... do not pay attention to anything I may say and DON'T try my ideas at home!

... stick to Jerry Springer or what ever Y'all watch after school these days... 

[Lloyd]

OK- How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

I read all the time. I've been doing this a long time. My results have been pretty darn good and I'm in good company. Guys that have been in this business for years and have been using these systems daily for probably 20 some years longer than me,.

I got to get something to eat here,. Mom's gone for the night.

I will be happy to back up ANY thing I claim at any time. Do I claim to know it all know? No. I have been known to make a mistake from time to time as well ....

Fire away.

For your reading pleasure.

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?PHPSESSID=6t6p16ovladkkffuo0n7eot7h0&action=profile;u=321;sa=showPosts

Lloyd

[OFFGriddnPat]

me thinks you need to do a little reading

http://www.operatingtech.com/lib/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20battery%20Charging.pdf

Trying to give advise to the masses you should at least know the basics. This community is here for sharing and learning. But everyone should be cautioned about learning from someone whom doesn't quite understand the basics of which they're teaching.

I am happy to help, when you're ready to learn..but please don't try to teach yet.


Lloyd

OK Teach. I read your PDF. Very informative and basic info on charging a battery, BUT I couldn't find the term "grid plate corrosion" mentioned anywhere. Please send me to a definition for that as it's a new term for me.  I want to learn.

[Lloyd]

me thinks you need to do a little reading

http://www.operatingtech.com/lib/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20battery%20Charging.pdf

Trying to give advise to the masses you should at least know the basics. This community is here for sharing and learning. But everyone should be cautioned about learning from someone whom doesn't quite understand the basics of which they're teaching.

I am happy to help, when you're ready to learn..but please don't try to teach yet.


Lloyd

OK Teach. I read your PDF. Very informative and basic info on charging a battery, BUT I couldn't find the term "grid plate corrosion" mentioned anywhere. Please send me to a definition for that as it's a new term for me.  I want to learn.

http://www.batterydirect.co.nz/serv01.htm
http://www.batterydirect.co.nz/serv02.htm

[OFFGriddnPat]

OK- How long have you run an off grid home system similar to mine that includes a Trace SW4024, 12- L16's, Siemens SR-1000's, Trimetric and trace charge controller?

Fire away.

Huh? That's your answer?  Sending me over to a 38 or some page thread?  

You're Kiddn' Right? ....