Done for the season ?

[mobile_bob]

could'a had a changfa!



bob g

[rl71459]

But you do have one of the best support groups and references to help you along.

[billswan]

jens

The group will help if you could post a pix or 2 if you run into a tough spot.

As to the setting of the bearing clearance, the shop that grinds the crank could also set up the rods big ends for you. Most shops are looking for work you just need to check around someone in the automotive machine shop business will be up for it. Have them fasten the crank in a solid support and actually mount the rods to it that is what I did with mine sure beats working through that small hatch in the side of the engine. Then you will know it is right as you would have had an experienced mechanic set up the oil clearance. When you reassemble it you will have only to watch your self to keep out the dirt and not ding up the surfaces.
If you hire someone make sure he has experience with shims as the younger generation will probably be freaked out by the rod shims.

The mains are rollers and the center is an insert?  Did the center bearing survive??

Billswan

[rl71459]

See

[Chris]

Jens,

My Lister va lost oil one time, that was bad and after a quick inspection the crank shaft journal looked toasted. On further inspection the bearing material had kinda welded itself to the crank. Having alot of time and no option, that I knew of at the time for a new crank, ( Did not know about the India option), I used a flat file and very slowly cleaned up the journal, then emony paper. I am using the same crank today, but I realy need a new one. It is also slightly bent. Has a bit of a wobble. So your problem may be better than you think. I like to think positive. These Listers can keep on working with a lot of slop. More than you would ever think possible.

Working on Listers I used to get so dirty that I would take a bottle of "Joy" down to the dock. Strip down and clean up as best I could, then jump in the sea to wash off...Then do it again and again until I thought I was clean. Always missed a spot or two or three.

Good luck,

Chris

[Chris]

Jens,

My failure was over 15 years ago. I don't really remember. Since then until about 6 months ago the engine was only used, very sparingly for emergency purposes. It has only been in the last, say 6 months that I have been using this engine on a regular basis.

As I recall it looked a mess. The journal/bearing had seased, stopping the engine. The bearing was really a mess, with parts of the "white" bearing metal looking like it had been ripped off exposing the shell material. It was a OH Sh$t moment that the engine was F&cked, knowing at that time no parts were available. So I did what I could to get it going again, using old shell bearings that did not look too bad, the best of what I had, (Never throw anything away that might? have a use later). I used those old worn out shells until I got some replacement from Central Maine about 4 months ago. The journal has a score or two in it, just adds to extra lubrication, I tell myself.

By the way I am following a story on the other site about a VA Lister. I can't add my comments as I have not been able to get on that site for years.


Good luck

Chris

[mobile_bob]

if it were me  

i would take the opportunity to make the following upgrades

1. get the crank turned or polished to spec

2. use the plain upper shells and hollow dippers

3. get the rods resized so they can be assembled without shims

4. get the brg "nip" setup right from the start

5. plastigage to check clearance

and then assemble as usual

i would take the opportunity to do away with the shims, the shims are not appropriate for modern brgs which are in use
with these engine's today,, the  babbit is not thick enough to allow the removal of shims as thing wear anyway.

get yourself a precision level so you can get the crankcase level an have a datum point, that way you can mount the crank
level and then the reconditioned rods will be perpendicular to the axis of the engine.

then work up from there,

take this as an opportunity to make the old girl what it should have been to start with, who knows, maybe John will have
a replacement cam available by the time you get to that point in assembly.

just remember

we're all in this together  

bob g

[Chris]

I agree with Bob on this one. Get it right, when you can. My story is just about what I did, living on a remote island, when I had little options at the time.

Chris

[billswan]

Jens

You asked "Where are the shims located ? Under the bearing shells ?"

My answer is the shims are between the parting line of the rod and it's cap,  the shim has a hole in it for rod bolt to go through. And usually there are equal amounts of shims and equal thicknesses on each side of the rod.
You said you have spares don't you have a complete gasket set? I think if you do and you look through it you will find shims in it at least the gasket set I have had them.

As far as leveling the crank to the block that is a deep subject I will let mobile bob explain as he has a much better way with words than I do. On my Omega I just went with the half base gasket to get the cylinder block trued up in relation to the crank as I was to lazy to spend more time and money on it.

Billswan

[mobile_bob]

Jack Belk aka majicjack or hotator on the LEF
outlined the process iirc, also Quinn related to sorting this sort of thing out in his 3 part series over at utterpower.

it goes like this

set the block so that you can shim the base and level the deck where the cylinders set
the main thing you want dead level is in line with the axis to the crankshaft
this will be the datum point so work to get that as right as rain, make is as level as you can get it.

once that is level then mount the crank and take up all the end clearance if the engine has tapered roller mains

rotate the crank and make sure the shaft end are not bent or tweaked they need to turn true

then use you level to see if the crank is dead level, if so then it is as close to parallel with the crankcase deck as you are going to get
in that plane.

if the crankshaft is straight as it should be, but it is not level as mounted in the crankcase then it is not parallel with the datum point (case deck)
and you will likely want to explore how to correct for this issue. if the tapered roller brg carriers cannot be tweaked a bit to correct the level
to the deck, then it might be that you have to have the deck remachined to get it to where it is parallel to the crankshaft. this is where the folded gaskets come in, rather than remachine a deck the correct by using half gaskets.  and you may decide the use of half gaskets are appropriate for you application as well.

if it turns out that the crankshaft brg carriers cannot be relocated to get the crankshaft level to the deck, then stop and relevel the the assy to the crank, in other words level the case so that the crankshaft is dead on level and now the crank will be the datum point.

then using your level and some shims (piece of paper will work) shim up you level on the deck of the case till it is level, this will tell you how much gskt offset you will need to get the cylinders back on and perpendicular to the new datum point (the crankshaft) you might find that you need to folk a base gskt or cut a very thin piece of paper to get the barrels mounted plumb to the crank.

now if you have had the rods reconditioned, another relatively inexpensive process, you can assemble with piston and big end shells but no rings yet,

you will need a long feeler gage, (depending on piston to cylinder bore clearance, i would expect maybe .003")

slide it down the side of the piston in line with the wrist pin, all the way down
if it makes it all the way to the bottom and feels about the same going down then you know the piston is not cocked in the bore
which is shouldn't be if you have done each step prior.

if everything feels right, then remove and fit with rings and reassemble.

anyway you get the idea,  i would suggest doing a search for hotater procedure on the old LEF
and also going through Quinn's most excellent work over on utterpower.com

bob g

[Crofter]

Jens, you are not there yet but when it comes to aligning the cylinders, make sure that you reference the bore, and NOT the top and bottom face of the cylinder castings. The bore must be assembled a true 90 to the crank axis.

In regard to the bearing liners, are we making an assumption about the thickness of the babbit metal film? How thick is it? I dont have any scrap enough to want to melt it out to see!

You may not be able to machine the rod in a manner to assemble without shims unless you also alter the bore of the bearing shells. Example; I have a new rod which torqued down and a new set of standard (plain upper ) inserts gives an inside diameter of 2.4985" . I believe standard crank pin should be 2.4985 - 2.499 so there would be zero clearance without shimming.  If you machine the rod and cap, say .002 larger then you no longer have any bearing nip or (crush in American terms)and the liners are loose in the rod. I expect to have to shim several thousandths, plus do a bit of scraping of the liners on the sides near the parting lines of the rod and cap since shims do not change side to side dimensions, only top / bottom.

It would be an excellent idea to take the rods and bearing shells to the crank grinding shop. The rebuilder I have used for other crank regrinds charges a hundred dollar minimum to set up then so much a journal.

The oil pump discharge onto the roller mains doesnt get much onto the throws which is really what casts it aloft to run down into the upper rod oil feed holes. If the dippers are not hitting the oil in that system you are in trouble.

[billswan]

One thing I want to point out and that is when you level the crank on a single you are working with only 2 main bearings but on a twin you have that pesky third center bearing. Now in my life time I have only met up with 1 running twin and have no Idea how that center bearing which is not a roller but I believe a rod type of bearing is mounted and if there may be any adjustment to its placement.

Moving the crank around inside the case of a twin MIGHT be a challenge, if it was mine I would just use half gaskets to get the cylinder blocks into alignment to the pistons.

But then again maybe the alignment would be simpler than I think. If a person cannot get the main bearing holders indexed some how it could make any future work on the engine tricky. Of course the half gaskets could really through some mechanic if he is not knowledgeable on the design.

Of course I could just be smoking my socks and really don't have the ability to get my points across.

Billswan

[mobile_bob]

take all the greasy castings to your local automotive machine shop, and pay them to run them through
their industrial washer, it is much like a huge dishwasher but runs very hot and high pressure caustic soda or some
more environmentally friendly soap solution.

they will come out bare casting if it is hot caustic soda, and they will then wash everything down with a pressure washer
to remove any crap still barely hanging on and to clean off all the caustic or soap.

be sure they do that right after they come out of the washer though, otherwise some of the stuff will dry on and adhere
very tightly. also the castings will be very hot and will self dry if they get after it after taking them out of the wash cabinet.

clean parts are a joy to work with, nasty grimey scum laden parts are nothing more than an invitation to aggravation
and trouble in my opinion.

no such thing as too clean when it comes to your parts when it comes to reassembly.

when you get her back together it will likely be 10x better an engine than it originally was.

bob g

ps, you might ask them how much to balance your rotating assemblies, that is if the old girl was much at hoping around
if it was relatively smooth i wouldn't spend the money unless they would do it pretty cheaply.

actually i am kind of excited for you, look at this as a learning experience, take what you have learned so far and make the necessary
improvements, the next "thumper v2.0" should be a huge improvement over its v1.0

[billswan]

Jens good luck we are all pulling for you.

Yes if you can afford a dip into a cooker or other type cleaning system put the engine through it.

Of course all the paint inside and out will be gone.

Yes thumper version 2 will be an improvement, yes get the valves done.
 
AS far as painting goes I would think after it is assembled it would need a bath to chase away assembly oils if you really want a nice job on the outside. But to put thumper back into it's hiding place maybe the paint job wouldn't need to be picture perfect. I know my 10/1 was meant for work not show so ......................

Billswan

[Ian]

Jens - I do not think I agree with you about the annual total strip and rebuild if run on WVO. These engines can take a lot of abuse and still run. You have found that the rings have not stuck, the carbon build up is quite low and the valve train is serviceable (if possibly not optimum).

However, I think the annual service should include an IP pump and an injector strip and clean plus the usual oil and filter changes.

This will be the first summer season that I do not plan to fully strip down my 12/1 - just the stuff listed above - and I run about 1800 - 2000 hours and burn about 2000 - 2500 litres of WVO per heating season. Having said that - this is the first summer season that did not require a major fix of some kind - there are now very few original parts as supplied.

Looking on the bright side - a full engine strip down is now almost second nature and can be completed in little more than 1/2 day!
Regards,
Ian