Wooden Engine/Generator frame

[vdubnut62]

Has anyone built a wooden frame for a genset? How did it work for you? I am planning a ladder type  frame from 4"x10" white oak beams.
It will be bolted glued and dowelled together and lined with heavy angle iron under the engine and generator.
Just trolling for ideas.
Ron

[Jedon]

I bolted my Metro 6/1 to 4ft 6x8's but it still moved around so I put anchors in the concrete slab and bolted the engine to the slab with the 6x8's as dampeners. I don't have a lot of hours on the setup yet though.

[BruceM]

I made a temporary wood frame for testing.  I think 6x6 with 2x6 planked deck. There is an "outrigger" portion, thus the deck, as I have both and air  compressor and ST-3 strapped.   It's Gorilla glued and well screwed with long drywall type screws. All Douglas Fir.  Full depth lags (into 6x6's for engine) and lags and/or  through bolts for generator head, air compressor. Painted Lister green with spray paint.  It's mounted on 3/4"x5.5x5.5 rubber pads, scored and glued with gorilla glue. (I got the material at McMaster.com) It is NOT a true isolated mount, you could skip the rubber, I suspect.

I never intended it to be permanent.  But after balancing the engine it has continued to work just fine, no continued loosening of lags after initial "settling" into the wood. (No angle under engine, even.)   Not much for hours yet, just under 1000. over a few years.  But no signs of any issues.  So that gives you a feel for the sleazy end of wood frames.  Boats have used hardwood mounts for a long, long time.

I think the secret is doing the balancing, so you don't beat up the mount in the first place. The Mr. X method worked well for me.

[JohnF]

I run long hours, so this might be of help. 

I used to use 6 x 6 hardwood beams 48" long with a steel plate on top.  The engine/genhead as bolted through the plate into the wood using 1/2" bolts.  I had some serious problems with bolts snapping, it seems that the wood allows just enough movement to stress them.  Since moving to 6" steel "I" beams I've had no problems at all.  I'd advise staying away from wood, the "I" beams are just as easy to work with.

[dubbleUJay]

I had some serious problems with bolts snapping, it seems that the wood allows just enough movement to stress them.

For this type of application, try and use soft steel bolts & nuts, not high tensile!
By 1st looking at this it might sound incorrect, but the "normal" bolts have just enough stretch in them to not snap or develop cracks in the metal.

[WGB]

OK, where are all the pics!!
I did the steel I beam.

Hey Bruce, good to see you, what is the Mr X method?

[dubbleUJay]

OK, where are all the pics!!
I did the steel I beam.

Hey Bruce, good to see you, what is the Mr X method?

I also used steel for my CS, but some of my "hobby" Lister's, the petrol/paraffin models do.
I looked at some pictures on the WWW for original wooden trolleys from that era and copied them. Mine are made from SA-pine which are much softer than the Oregon-Pine we imported years ago.

Knock on Wood, so far so Good!

I also tried to find out about the Mr.X method of balancing on a few occasions, but it seems to be a meths as no one ever comes back about it!

dubbleUJay

[BruceM]

Mr X method-  I used a 5 gallon bucket with a tilted rod and gravel in it to support my hand and felt tip marker.  Degrease and clean the flywheels, inside and out. Then fire up the Lister on a soft mount (carpet scraps under base would do) so that there is some movement.  My wood/rubber pad mount was sufficient.

The felt tip marker should be perpendicular to the flywheel, about crank height.  Move it slowly in until it just touches the flywheel at the "high points".  Stop the Lister. Alcohol removes the marks for the next marking.

Put 4 oz of clay inside the rim, opposite the mark,  leading in the direction of rotation by about 4 inches.

Plastic clay (Sculpy brand- the stuff you heat in an oven to harden, I use it for custom plastic parts ) is pretty sticky and works well without a mess.  I'm sure regular potters clay would too.

Start her up, mark, shut down, place 4 oz of clay.  Repeat in 4 oz increments until your mark is getting pretty long and vibration/movement of engine isn't getting better.  Add up your 4 oz's and put half on, in self stick lead wheel weights, centered where the clay is.  

Go to the other flywheel, mark and add 4 oz increments of clay.  Add the full amount of lead when done.  When the marking gets long or you seem to be chasing your tail, stop.  Close counts at this point.

Now go back and finish the first flywheel, adding the other half (in clay).  If you put clay on the opposite sides, obviously some can be removed.

At that point, you're pretty much there.  I then go to pure "feel of feet and hands", and put 2 oz. at 3 o'clock increments around each flywheel to see if I can improve the smoothness or action in a positive manner. A  glass of water sitting on the valve cover is also helpful at this point as an indicator.

The "chalking" method will get you darned close, pretty fast.  Usually you'll be adding weight to or opposite the flywheel counterbalance.  

I sealed the tire weights with epoxy around the edges, so the adhesive is protected from oil.  Gluing them down with epoxy steel or weldbond, on bare sanded rim would be best, maybe I'll get to that someday if one gets loose.

It does take time and patience, but even going with a top drawer, steel frame bedded to concrete , I'd do this first. Why stress they castings/bearings/crank/bolts more than needed, when it's cheap to not.

My profound thanks to Mr.X, And XYZ'er (Dave) who reported the Mr. X method of balancing some years ago on the LEF.  They may cringe at how I do it, and probably could explain better.

I agree with John F, a heavy steel I beam frame is a forever frame. Alas, I don't have the equipment for cutting and welding, though I have full wood shop.   I really did mean sleazy when talking about my Douglas Fir frame, but there's a lot of ancient boats out there still running engines on original hardwood mounts, and I think a serviceable mount for the Listeroid can be done in wood, if the engine is well balanced.

[quinnf]

Here's what I built:




Frame is welded 3" x 3/8" steel angle.  Cross pieces are also steel angle.  Engine mounting studs are 1/2" steel bolts passed through the holes from the bottom, the heads welded to the cross pieces.  Engine drops over the studs and is held in place with lock washers and nuts. 

The steel frame is dropped over a wooden frame made from 4" x 6" fir.  I think there's something to be said for having some wood in your mounting system to provide some vibration attenuation. 

Quinn

[BruceM]

I couldn't go with a simple rail type frame, in either wood or steel, because of the air compressor.  An early, pre-automation photo sorta shows it.  ST-3 doghouse was removed after 18 hrs of running.

[JohnF]

WJ;  I WAS using standard bolts, seems like the movement hardened them and then they snapped.

I have plans for a no-weld "I" beam frame, I have used it for a few engines now with no problems.  If anyone wants a copy email me at John@woodnstuff.ca.

[quinnf]

John,

Mebbe you need to use rubber bands like Bob advocates.

q.

[mobile_bob]

once you go with rubber you will never go back!




i actually have a picture of a listeroid single mounted the way i described a couple years back
running on "air" mounts,
there is zero thump and the crankshaft runs in a stationary plane, an absolutely beautiful
application of the cradle mount theory.

i would post the pic, but the fellow that built it swore me to secrecy, and i am sure i would be disowned
if i published it without his consent.

i will try and locate him again, and ask if he would like to post the pics, and the video clip.

after seeing that engine running, and after seeing the same principle work on my changfa powered unit
it is hard for me to imagine ever pouring concrete for a engine mount.

now see what you did Quinn, you got me all stirred up again!

lets see now, "resilient mounting v5.0"  ya? i think that is as good as place as any to start up the arguement again!

lmao


bob g

[vdubnut62]

Hmmm Perhaps I should have mentioned that I was building this frame for my Xing Dong (changfa clone) 1100 and a 12kw st head from Tom @
Central Georgia ....no Lister...Yet!
Thanks for all the input guys.
Ron

[BruceM]

Now we all feel pretty silly since you're talking Chanfa mounting.  Bob's your uncle on the ultimate Chanfa mounts.