gas engine genset? hmmm

[mobile_bob]

i don't know about the rest of you guys, but i have been giving some thought to building a gas powered
genset. it would be nice to have a test bed for alternator development and when that function is done
it could be pressed into service as a backup battery charger or an inverter/generator.

i got a NOS 16hp B&S to work with, but could use an electric start for it.
anybody got a link to one of those delco starter/generators they used to belt drive these
big single cyl briggs engines with?

there might be something to be learned from working with something like this, in the way of variable rpm
based on load demand. i am thinking maybe a spring biased throttle solenoid that has its coil in series with the
alternator output, so that when the alternator output is low amps the spring pulls back to low rpm, and when
the alternator output is high it pulls the bias spring and the throttle to high rpms, mid range load ends up somewhere
in the middle.

seems pretty useful to me

i think maybe i will throw one together, anyone else want to do the same and work together to get the bugs worked out?

bob g

[Henry W]

Hello Bob G,

I think that is a great idea!

There are times were a gas powered generator might come in handy. Check out the pictures below. This person got very creative and as far as I am concerned he made a generator that works fine for his needs. He has a small Toyota pickup, Its probably gas powered and I don't see a fuel tank for the generator so my guess is he tapped fuel from the trucks tank. I say that is a good idea. He only has to fill the trucks tank. Very nice indeed. The gen-head is an ST-10 and the engine is a 25hp vertical shaft. My guess on engine make is Kohler with pressurized oil lube and spin on oil filter, electric start and built in alternator for battery charging.

The foot-print of the whole gen-set is small. Using a vertical shaft engine and mounting the gen-head vertical allows him to have more space on his truck.

The ST-5 through ST-12 gen-head drive ends already come with a 6309 deep groove ball bearing so these gen-heads might be designed to be mounted horizontal or vertical.

The engine he is using will spin 3600 RPM's all day long with no problem.

The reason I like this is it did not cost much to make, Compact for its size, can use same fuel as his truck  and simple to work on.

I feel this guy did a pretty good job.

Henry

[Henry W]

He has built it over a year and half ago. As I am writing someone is trying to contact him. We will try to get him to join so he can go over everything. Lets not pass judgment untill we contact him and see how it is doing.


The ST-5 through ST-12 gen-head drive ends already come with a 6309 deep groove ball bearing so these gen-heads might be designed to be mounted horizontal or vertical.

This is not a stationary unit. What he built should last better than most store bought Generators. And cost much less.

This is a good thing to find out Jens. Can these gen-heads run vertical? I reworked my last post a bit. This Guy is doing it. And it might be ok.

Hopefully we will here from him.

Henry

[icepuck]

i got a NOS 16hp B&S to work with, but could use an electric start for it.
anybody got a link to one of those delco starter/generators they used to belt drive these
big single cyl briggs engines with?

A 12hp(1cyl) is the biggest I've seen with a starter/generator. The 16hp B&s may be too much for a starter/generator, if you have one to try you won't have anything to lose. If it doesn't work have a look on ebay you may find enough parts to convert it over the hard way.
-dan 

[panaceabeachbum]

sounds like a good idea to me, also expands multi fuel ability .  In addition to the 3 diesel gen sets I am in the process of assembling I have 3 gas generators and one propane

[admin]

AWE comeon Jens

hwew, went to all the trouble to rub two sticks together and make a nice little bondfire
in this catagory, and you come along and pee on it, and put it out?

geesh 

as for the vertical mounting of the genhead, i see no real reason why not?
it would seem to me the chinese would not want limit the application and by
extension the sales of their genheads all for the want of a brg that can support
the weight of the rotor?

my bet is they will run just as long in either orientation,  and even if it didn't the chinese
brgs need to be replaced anyway and certainly the proper brg is available to allow vertical mounting.

personally i think it is a very innovative application this guy has done. sure would like to hear more
about it.

admin

[Henry W]

Thats ok, Here is a nice little gas powered genset I can bring with me in my back pack when I am camping. That way I don't have to rub two sticks together to start a fire to see during the night. sure hate to piss on this thing during the night.

[mobile_bob]

now isn't that cute??

i vote we petition for a section for the tiny tiger!!!
right ahead of those nasty listers 

"oh mr. admin,, yooohooo"

lmao

bob g

[mobile_bob]

i see a lot of pump motors mounted vertically without tapered roller brgs
i also see a lot of component saw motors running from 5 to 15hp 3450 and 1740rpm mounted on
scissors so they can run from horizontal all the way to near vertical, and they have mounted hubs
and large rotating blades,, none of which use tapered roller, just ball brgs

there are differing types of ball brgs, some made for some vertical loading, and some for even more vertical
loading, suffice it to say far more loading than the weight of an st rotor would present.

i would bet they all use a deep groove brg on the drive end, so the genhead could be mounted in any orientation.
seems like there would be markets around the world that might run vertical mounting, and i have never seen
a spec on an st ad specifying mounting orientation.

i suppose if i were really concerned  i would be replaceing the brgs anyway, and would just ask for a brg spec'd for vertical loading.
the st heads use standard brgs so there would be no reason that the type of brg needed could not be found readily.

my .02 as well.

who knows what the guy in the welding truck did to mount his st head? he might well have replaced the brgs, he might figure
a couple thousand hours is more than he will ever run the genset, or if they are not up to snuff, he will just replace them periodically.

in any event that is a nice compact unit, using a readily available and reasonably priced power plant in my opinion.

makes me want to build one!

maybe i will scrap my 16hp briggs project and get a vertical engine from surpluscenter.com ?

bob g

[mobile_bob]

if you are concerned and want to run an st head vertically here is the solution
an angular contact ball brg
http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=1_3_1

click on the link on single row brg so see a drawing

bob g

[veggie]

I run into this issue all the time with my customers wanting to orient pumps and motors in various configurations.
I would be very cautious about flipping and ST head on it's end regardless of having a deep groove bearing.
Deep groove bearings allow only a small portion of the total load bearing capacity to be shifted from axial to thrust loads.
By going vertical, ALL the rotor weight is placed in the thrust zone of one single bearing (Lower bearing). The top bearing will not support any load unless it's inner race is pressed onto the shaft with an interference fit.
The fellow in the pictures might get lucky and have the bearing last a long time. Then again, the bearing could fail in 20 hours.
It's a crap shoot at best without doing an L10 bearing life calculation and applying a split load something like 10% radial load (belt tension)  and 90% of the rotor weight as thrust loads into the formula. (IMHO)

Bob,
I built a direct drive 4kw genny using a Briggs 10HP IC (Cast bore) engine and a Voltmaster 4kw head.
One thing I don't like about it is that the engine has to spin at 3600 rpm as a direct drive unit.
The darn thing is noisier that my Changfa. (not kidding)
Don't use it much. I was considering converting it to natural gas and rigging up a quick connect hose for connection to my gas line in the garage. Another fuel source.


Cheers,
Veggie

[mobile_bob]

i guess until we hear from the builder of that unit we won't know what he has done
with the brg if anything, and how long it has lasted.

there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the unit can successfully run vertically with an angular contact
brg, and may do acceptably well for a part time welder supply even with the chinese brg.

from what i have heard it has been in use for a year and a half or better, so something is right, or
good enough for the builders expectations.

if one had an old vertical engine, i can sure see the appeal of building one with the st head mounted that way.

bob g

[veggie]

Bob g,

Sorry to deviate from your original topic.

Back to the Gas powered Delco alternator........
The project I had in mind is similar.
During a business closeout, I got my hands on a few Honda GX160 engines (free).
Very reliable and VERY quiet. I was considering hooking one of them to an automotive alternator and running a variable speed setup for battery bank charging and greenhouse lighting/heating. If I could capture the heat from the engine, that would be even better.
Honda has some amazing self contained CHP systems based on 4 stroke engines running an natural gas which act as the power plant for a house. The engine runs continuous (variable speed) and heats the water for space heating and domestic use.

Getting a bit radical....
Ideally I'd like to have it in a small soundproof cabinet.
Although the GX160 is air cooled, I want to experiment with removing the air cowling, grinding away any irregularities on the cooling fins, and wrapping the whole cylinder and head (between the fins) with copper tubing for water circulation.
If the engine dies, nothing lost. But if I am able to keep it cool, I have a micro CHP unit.

Veggie

[mobile_bob]

cool concept

there is a fellow on otherpower.com forum (which is down now so they can change servers) who
upon my recommendation bought a prestolite 110-555jho and connected it to a 5.5 hp engine
as of last week he was getting something around 120amps out of it without overloading the engine.

setting the drive ratio is critical, most folks get that wrong and never get the full potential out of their units.

the only issue he had to resolve was getting the fan right, he was turning the alternator backwards and not getting
enough cooling in my opinion for 120amps continuous, but in an initial 4 hour run charging a ~1000amp/hr battery bank
the thing did well.

interestingly and right on target with how this thread has gone, he used a vertical shaft mower engine and stood the
alternator up vertically too!
i voiced my concern with the brg on that alternator as well, but i suspect it will run a very long time in any event.

if and when their site comes back up i want to contact him and get him onboard here, so he can share his project
and test results

bob g

[Henry W]

jens,

You are missing the point. For long term use like we do it might not be the best setup. But this guy is a welder. He is limited on space on the truck and it did not cost him much to build. it is easy to service.

How many hours do you think it sees in a year? And if he put 300 hrs on I bet it paid for itself many times over. Let me ask you somthing jens. Where would you put your money in this persons line of work. On the one this person built, or a $1500.00+ genset from home depot?

Sometimes its good to come out of the shell and see that some people don't need a Twin Cylinder Listeroid or a changfa S1115 hooked up to an ST-10 gen-head on a back of a small pickup to get work done. I don't think he is looking for 4000 hrs life from the genset. Yet again I hate to break it to you that engine he is using is known to last over 2000 hrs @ 3600 RPM's.

You have to give credit where it is due. I have the persons number and left a message on his cell. I am hoping to hear from him so we can get the facts. As Bob said, there are better side load bearings to put in down the road.

Please lighten up. You don't have to make sure every gen-set that is posted here has to last 20,000 hrs.

Henry