Generators and Well Pumps?

[LowGear]

Covid 19 has arrived and so has the "reality" of no power for days at a time (I believe).  I have a 1/2 HP pump about 60 feet down the well.  It's an older style system with a large storage tank in the garage. 

Manual switching is OK with me but I want the generator to be as automatic as the pump once grid power is lost.

How big of generator?

Which fuel for storage?

What else do I need to consider?

[Henry W]

Had a Kubota Z482 direct drive genset running at 3600 rpm driving a Markon BL-105G generator head that produced roughly 7.5 Kw. It grunted a little when the 1/2hp 210ft deep well pump kicked on.

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=1283.0


The ST-12 with an S195 barely made a strain when the well pump turned on while operating the electric water heater. It was a good setup but the engine was noisy. At times I pulled over 8Kw when testing.

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=61.0

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=175.0


The 1800 rpm Kubota D1005 direct drive genset was the best setup I've had. The Marathon generator head had a high surge of over 12 Kw.

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=1743.0


I found out what helps is rotating mass. The S195 and Kubota D1005 setup had pretty good size flywheels. But, the mass of the 4 pole generator heads probably helped the most.


I Believe I can get by with a 7hp air cooled 178F running at 3000 RPM turning an 1800 RPM ST-10 head. The mass will overcome startup easily. Of course there will have to be lots of load managing.


About fuel storage. I just used a 55 gallon drum to run the Kubota genset's.  Both engines had good fuel pumps.

This was pretty much the same setup I had.

https://www.hardydiesel.com/product/drum-tank-kit/

I feel a safe setup would be to get a 55 gallon drum With a removable top. Than put 30 gallon drum inside it. This setup might pass code in some areas.

https://www.mcmaster.com/storage-drums/material~steel/

Henry

[sailawayrb]

I assume this is a 1/2 HP pump on 20A double-pole (240V) circuit.  I would expect you to run at about 900 VA (even though 1/2 HP is only 373 watts) and require starting at about 2,700 VA (using the 3 times rule of thumb).  And I would want a generator at least 50% bigger than those VAs...so one rated for at least 1,350 watts continuous and more importantly, rated for at least 4,000 watts of surge.  That's the minimum and it always best to go even bigger (like Henry said), especially if you will be powering anything else from the generator when the well pump kicks on.

And one other thought...  If possible, you could create a bulge (e.g., a tank or cistern) in your delivery plumbing that is at a sufficient elevation and of a suffient volume such that it can provide your water needs via gravity feed without needing electricity or a backup generator at all.  This is commonly done in third world countries where grid power is unreliable...like the US...

[mike90045]

My XW inverter logs a nearly exact 1kw consumed by my 1/2 hp well pump   ( remember with a motor, you have Power Factor to contend with )

I have a modern 3kw genset that will not run the pump, (motor starts OK) the pump controller kills the pump after a few seconds, and I think it's something to do with the power factor the modern genset can actually deliver.   My 6/1 with a ST-5 head runs the pump just fine ( and all house loads and some battery charging too !)

Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr |Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run to fill tanks- Runs off PV

[Henry W]

I never heard of a pump motor stop running once started. Is this generator capacitor regulated? If so I wonder if the capacitor is going bad or not matched for the generator. I do know the Markon BL-105G head coupled to the Z482 had a weird thing that would happen when it was loaded over 80%. I could not get a true voltage reading with my Fluke meter. Never did figure out what caused it.

Never had problems with the ST-12. But the generator head never saw over 8500 watts continuous output. It ran everything hooked up to it. Never heard weird noises coming from electric motors that were being powered by it.

I'm still in the design stages of my next genset. It will mostly be used for the RV.  I've been working with a generator manufacturer that builds brushed, 4 pole, single phase, transformer regulated heads. BobG and I spoke about it about 2 or 3 weeks ago and we won't know much more about it until this Covil-19 thing passes. I'm hoping to get one within a month or 2. The head weighs about 150 Lbs. The output is about 12kw @ .8 power factor. This is something we've been trying to find for years. We are hoping it's as good as the manufacture claims It is. It is not made in Asia. I do like the ST-10 head I have but the weight is around 400lbs! This next genset needs to be somewhat portable so we will see what comes up.

Henry

[LowGear]

Wow!

Thank you very much.

Now for location.

[Henry W]

I'm hoping to know more about these heads soon. They are shut down. From the pictures they look good but we won't know until I hear back from the person I've been working with. We talked for about a half hour about 2 weeks ago and I want to reconfirm the numbers and ratings. I already have a test platform ready to fasten one down to see if it does what the person says it will. I've known him for about 5 years. If everything works out you will be the first to know after Bob G and I go over test results. Let's hope this is what we've been waiting for. If they perform as claimed I hope to have these available for members only for now. Reason? We don't know how many are available at this time. I will tell you from the specs I've read that the efficiency is very good.

[sailawayrb]

Mike, my 6/1 with ST-5 head runs all three of my 1/2 HP water pumps just fine as well.  My well pump is set at 180 feet and I have two other 1/2 HP pumps that are each in different cisterns (one for our well water storage and one for our stream water storage).  Only one pump is allowed to be operational at any given time.  My cheap portable Power Boss (rated 7,000 VA continuous and 12,000 VA surge) runs them just fine too.

[LowGear]

The PowerBoss might be more like what I'm looking for as I'm really cramped for room.  What model do you have?

[Henry W]

Been thinking about your location, a Dual Fuel generator might work for you. Most or all consumer generators are made in China so it's best to pick a brand that has some sort of customer support and parts availability.

Champion Generators has one of the largest support networks available. I think it's safe to say that they will be around for a while. https://www.championpowerequipment.com/list-of-retailers/

https://www.championpowerequipment.com/products/generators/portable-generators/?fwp_portable_generator_filter_technology=dual-fuel&fwp_portable_generator_filter_start_type=electric&fwp_product_filter_product_regions=us

One of the problems with so many different generator brands popping up is lots don't have a good customer support network. Or, they are in business today, than gone tomorrow.

[Henry W]

Just spent some time on Champions Help center.

http://help.championpowerequipment.com/

http://help.championpowerequipment.com/category/opg9ohy7ex-generators

Very nicely put together.

[sailawayrb]

We bought our Power Boss from Costco about 15 years ago for about $450...shortly before building our Listeroid 6/1 and ST-5 setup.  Our Power Boss has apparently been discontinued, but here's a link to it:

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/PowerBOSS-30220-Portable-Generator/p1056.html

It has been a great generator and has over 7000 hours on it.  I suspect that is because of the Honda engine and it must have a somewhat decent generator that we have not over-stressed.  We initially used our Power Boss for backup power for our Seattle area place for a couple years while I was constructing the 6/1. Then we used our Power Boss for our primary power at our remote part-time vacation property for over ten years while transitioning this property to become our current retirement homestead.  The 6/1 was built with this future retirement homestead in mind, but it resided in our Seattle area place and provided backup power using stealthy vegetable oil as fuel there until we moved to our retirement homestead full-time about five years ago and started construction of the buildings.  I still need to get the 6/1 setup here and operational again and we have been using the Power Boss as our power backup in the mean time.  We brought 600A of grid power into our retirement homestead when constructing our shop building (which we lived in for two years while constructing our house) and we will be integrating hydro and solar into our power system as well.

If I were you and this is just for back up power and a small footprint and portability is important, I think I would just shop for something similar that has received good ratings.  I have seen dual fuel generators in Costco in recent years and I could see how that fuel flexibility could be a good thing to have:  

https://www.costco.com/firman-7500w-running--9400w-peak-dual-fuel-generator.product.100417697.html

I have also considered building a portable generator in the past perhaps with a PMG, but the ROI just doesn't seem to be there given what you can buy off the shelf these days.  Now if you need something for full-time use that you can easily maintain yourself, that is an entirely different matter and why we have the Listeroid 6/1 and ST-5 setup.

[LowGear]

Thanks again.

I have recommended dual fuel units to friends that are already using propane and have substantial storage on site as even ethanol free gasoline can get confused (it's a belief thing and I have no data to back me up).  While reading your generous replies I realized that I might follow my own advice (I know it reflects as weakness but - well, you know) and take account that I have up to 500 gallons of diesel on the property for heating.  Duh I says to myself.  Hence I'm looking for one of these mobile units probably very much like sailawayrb's Power Boss.

With 50 feet of heavy duty extension cord I can reach all of the distribution boxes I need from a not well used storage area under an existing shed roof. 

Let the shopping begin.

[sailawayrb]

Henry, speaking of the Covid19 situation...  My PhD nephew who now does genetic engineering and protein design stuff for a living these days says "There will likely be multiple hills and valleys along this Covid19 journey until there is herd immunity (either preferably via a vaccine or by the majority of people getting it and surviving it).  However, developing a vaccine for Covid viruses is like developing one for the common cold (which is also a Covid virus).  This has yet to be successfully accomplished after many decades of trying.  And it still isn't conclusive that even getting Covid19 provides significant future immunity, just like getting a cold doesn't keep you from getting future colds.  And there will likely be different Covid virus mutations that may be much worse than Covid19 in terms lethality coming our way too.  The planet is basically trying its best to purge itself of the destructive rapidly increasing human population.  Science is trying to do its best to even the odds.  But it still remains to be seen and there is still much uncertainty on how this will ultimately turn out.  So the new normal may never be like the old normal, at least for our foreseeable future."

[Derb]

Hi Fellas. Here in NZ it would appear on the face of it that we may have turned the corner with only a loss of 23 lives - most of which were elderly people with compromised health to start with. If what we read in the papers and see on the TV is to be believed, USA is around 1000 per day. We are starting to be let out of our cages in a measured fashion. Best of luck over there Fellas.