Changfa 195 cooling

[Stevem]

      It doesn't appear that their is still a lot of interest in the changfas.  I am getting ready to pull my listeroid 6/1 out of service and start using a new 2005 195 changfa.  I have set it up with a 10kw st generator head from CGG.  I have cooled my lister for years with a cast iron radiator from an old school or something and it works beautifully.  Engine and radiator hold 5 gallons of water/antifreeze.  I have removed the hopper from the changfa and installed a block off plate to use the same radiator with thermosiphon.  Will this be adequate or will I need to use a radiator and fan.  I hope to get some feedback about this.  My experience has been that gravity always works and not so much mechanical sources.  Will the Changfa require a lot more cooling?

[Ronmar]

How much load will it have on it?  If it has the same load as the 6/1 and that radiator worked for the 6/1, then the same radiator should also work for the 195 under the same load...  That is of course providing the smaller ports on the 195 can provide adequate thermosiphon flow.

One factor might be how the coolant is returned to the engine.  Are both ports on the plate you fabbed(return port with a longer pipe to reach down in near the bottom of the coolant sump) or are you using the drain port?  I am not sure if there is a difference, but I get the sense that the plate using 2 ports might not thermosiphon as well.

Good luck 

[Tom Reed]

There is a 195 in my storage container waiting on the day the 6/1 'roid dies. Good to know spare parts are out there.

[Stevem]

Thanks for the reply Ronmar.  I am going to have a demand pretty much the same as with the listeroid.  I do have a hard plastic tube on the inlet of the blockoff plate to cause it to dump toward the bottom of the reservoir in engine.  I have not run my 240 volt well pump in the past but I am going to put it on the transfer switch with the Changfa. 
     Leave it to me to show up late for the party.  I get the impression that most of the folks who were interested in these things have moved on.  We are on the fringes of a sketchy grid and lose power a lot.  I prefer water cooled slow turning diesels for our needs but 1800 sounds like a lot of rpms after a 650 lister.  I will continue to check in here to learn more about these things if I can.  I have two of these "new" changfa's and hope Parts will be available in the future. 

[Jesse McB]

I showed up extra late to the party aswell, I only first heard of the changfa diesel just 3 years ago!!  I didn't even knew diesels get that small. I may have found a parts supplier for changfas in china, after i buy a few parts ill let you know how it all goes with the transation and quality. Just depends if you can get parts shipped in your country. Yeah , most people in backwoods canada use them cheap china junk generators that run for a month and then get em going for another month

[playdiesel]

From this distance it's hard to say for sure, lots of variations in old cast iron radiators. I would guess that if the radiator was pushed for capacity to cool the Lister it probably wont cool the 195. The horizontals seem to put more heat inthe coolant than the Listers.   If you had some extra it might work depending on how much extra you had.   My home set is  a 1115 pulling a 15KW head and with a good load on a hot day there is a lot of hot air pulled from the re purposed car radiator by the electric  fan.   I had troubles with my plate conversion at first. When started from cold it didnt know which way it wanted to circulate. Fixed all that by removing the plate and adding a drop to the port closest to the crankshaft. 

Dealing direct from China can be very satisfying,, or a heap of heartburn if you get a crook. Let us know if you find a good guy.   There seems to be a very steady supply of engines that were purchased 10 or so years ago (when cheap) and never used.   I almost a full set from R165 to 1115 all new old stock  The small ones are hardest to find, the R195 and 1100 and 1115 being plentiful, at least in my experience.

[Tom Reed]

And the 195 is >2x the HP of a 6/1 so the head dumped to the radiator is proportional. I'd just monitor the temp under load and if it goes over 200F look for more cooling.

[Jesse McB]

Maybe add a fan to the radiator if it over heats?  Yeah i have the smaller ones R165 and R170, i would like to find a R175 but probably never will lol. 

[mobile_bob]

having tested the hell out of an s195, i can report the following fwiw

my 195 was set up with a closed cooling system, with a 7lb radiator cap, a small nissan sentra radiator, 195 degree tstat and housing from an old honda 4banger, a block off plate, 50/50 antifreeze mix, a direct read temp gauge, electric fan also from the sentra along with its fan temp switch, and a bosch auxilliary heater pump.

the pump circulates the water drawing in cooled water from the bottom of the radiator, adapted down from about 1 inch lower hose to 5/8" to the bosch pump, the pump pushes water into the drain cock port under the cylinder block right behind the head.

i also harvested the exhaust heat via a purpose built exchanger, but that is another topic.

under full power which was 7.5kwatt (from st7.5) into a resistive load (electric heater bank) through a digital meter head
so i could determine the actual power or load applied to the engine.

at full load, 7.5 kwatt the engine runs between 205f and 215f the tstat is open and the temp is regulated by the fan switch turning on the fan at 214f and off at 205f.

yes this is a bit more complex than a simple hot water system, however you really can't get max power and max efficiency out of one of these engine's without a good cooling system in my opinion.  the simple convection cooling system likely will be limited to something less than 6kw max electrical loading, and the efficiency will be down a bit as a result.

the only issue i ever had was a failed head gasket, when in testing with breadboarded wiring (read that cobbled) i forgot to turn on the fan circuit and the engine got up to 260f.   no other issue than a blown head gasket.

i replaced the fiber gasket with one supplied by the "gaskets to go" guy which is a much better quality one made for a direct injected 1100 series engine.  the new gasket has never failed and i have flogged the hell out of the engine in testing.

other things of note,
the tstat was drilled with a 1/16" hole, and a tiny little cotter pin installed to allow for the cooling system to purge any air trapped when filling.
the radiator has an overflow tank (from a subaru iirc) and as the engine gets hot the water expands overflowing into the tank, when the engine cools it sucks the water bank into the radiator just like the big boys do.

these engines burn so cleanly when they are operated hot, however you really have to have a real cooling system to assure good control over the heat.

btw, the little bosch pump is probably good for up to about 25hp in my opinion, they are very well built and in my opinion about as bullet proof as anything else involved with these builds.  certainly not a weak link in my opinion.

i have some cast iron radiators that i plan to use as well, however my plan is to take heat off the engine system via another plate heat exchanger and a taco pump.. maintaining the fan/radiator system to control the engine system
and use the taco/iron radiator system to take heat off when the engine gets up to 212f and shut off when the engine drops to around 205 or so.   the idea is keeping the engine in the 205-214f range while in operation, and having the fan/sentra radiator system in place to dump excess heat should the iron radiator heat be unneeded.

when you think about it, the isolation allows for using the engine heat in a few different ways, rather than having to dump it.  things like domestic hot water production, hot tub heating, space heating, to name a few.

it has always been my opinion that these changfa type engine's are made to work, and the harder you work them, with good heat control, lubrication and maintenance, they are capable of very good efficiency numbers.

again fwiw
bob g

[Henry W]

Love the S195 diesels.
I also tested the engine and it is oNE of the most underage diesels I know.

[Stevem]

 :)Wow;
         I have been pretty busy and just got a chance to check in.  Thank you all for the reply's and I guess I was wrong about the lack of interest.  For some reason the Lister CS and the Changfas just put a smile on my face when they run.  My generator shed is about 60 feet from the house with the exhaust routed out the back side.  With good muffler I am hoping the Changfa will not keep us awake at night.  Also the exhaust will head out into a fir forest and am hopeful that will further soften the racket.  Thanks again for all the reply's.  I am a dedicated, if not swift learner!

[JPinnell]

So what is the consensus on the drain port size being large enough for the coolant return when thermo siphoning?  I made a coolant block off plate with a short dipper pipe for the return but have not run it yet.  Ideally I'd like to return to the bottom of the block as it would make the overall height more compact.  Is the stock size adequate or should I drill and NPT tap it larger and if so what size?  I have a ZS1115 Changfa which should be similar.  I've been collecting parts for years and been sidetracked with having 2 kids.  We had a recent ice storm (luckily no outage) and the generator is back as a priority.

[mobile_bob]

i personally would not use the drain port as part of the thermosiphon cooling system, the port in my opinion is really not large enough to assure proper cooling, unless you derate the engine loading significantly.

thermosiphon is about as basic as one can get, however it is not all that and a bag of chips,  as with everything there is compromise.

in my opinion the lister/oid is much more agreeable to thermosiphon cooling as there are existing ports and the engine were designed and rated for this way of cooling.

the changfa's while being able to use thermosiphon cooling do so at reduced ratings.  this might be acceptable to many, however the tradeoff is lower efficiency.

for instance the 195 is basically good for 12hp with thermosiphon cooling at or around sea level and in moderate temperature,  if you are in over 100 degree ambient temps and/or high elevations you will have to derate to maybe 10hp or maybe even less in order to cool the engine properly.

pressurize the system, close it up, put a radiator with temp controlled fan and an electric pump then the same engine is good for about 15hp output in moderate ambient temps and sea level, and the efficiency climbs a couple percentage points over the thermosiphon cooling scheme.

it really depends on what you want to do?  simple = compromised output and efficiency,  complex = higher output and higher efficiency.

and there is probably some gray area between the two where a hybrid system might work out, i really don't know.

for me and what my plan was came down to this,  a system that had limited run time,  all loads either scheduled so that the 195 could be operated at or very near max output, or be supply by the battery bank during times of no 195 running.
the goal being maximizing fuel efficiency and heat recovery, while operating with as clean of an exhaust as possible.  this necessitated a closed/thermostatically controlled cooling system, with water pump and all the rest.

had i decided to run longer hours and at part load for most of the time, i might well concur with the simplicity of the thermosiphon design.... but to be honest after learning what i have about a closed system with pump etc i would likely still go that route.

fwiw
bob g

[JPinnell]

i personally would not use the drain port as part of the thermosiphon cooling system, the port in my opinion is really not large enough to assure proper cooling, unless you derate the engine loading significantly.

thermosiphon is about as basic as one can get, however it is not all that and a bag of chips,  as with everything there is compromise.

for instance the 195 is basically good for 12hp with thermosiphon cooling at or around sea level and in moderate temperature,  if you are in over 100 degree ambient temps and/or high elevations you will have to derate to maybe 10hp or maybe even less in order to cool the engine properly.

pressurize the system, close it up, put a radiator with temp controlled fan and an electric pump then the same engine is good for about 15hp output in moderate ambient temps and sea level, and the efficiency climbs a couple percentage points over the thermosiphon cooling scheme.

it really depends on what you want to do?  simple = compromised output and efficiency,  complex = higher output and higher efficiency.

had i decided to run longer hours and at part load for most of the time, i might well concur with the simplicity of the thermosiphon design.... but to be honest after learning what i have about a closed system with pump etc i would likely still go that route.

fwiw
bob g

My need is for backup power (MidWest Storms) with changing household loads, the largest are the 3 ton AC @ 30A/240V, 30A/240V Water Heater, or the well pump 20A/240V. 

The ZS1115 is rated for 22hp@2200rpm.  I'm direct driving an ST-10 @ 1800rpm so at most maybe 18hp so I'm already de-rated from an overall work/cooling needed capacity.  I have a new surplus radiator from a 30hp diesel JD tractor, a cooling fan with thermo switch, and a DIY hopper plate with a thermostat.  Another head indicated the coolant drain should be 3/8 BSPT.  I will see what NPT taps I can find locally and drill the block to a larger size.  If that does not work temp wise than I'll add a Bosch coolant pump.  Ideally I'd like to return to the bottom of the block as it would make the overall height more compact. 

Thanks for the info here!!

[mobile_bob]

that is part of the story i neglected to tell

that being the derate thing due to reduction in engine rpm from 2200 to 1800rpm for direct drive

the s195 will put out very near 8kw (direct drive electric) at 1800rpm, "if" you use the pressurized, tstat controlled with a bosch pump, and use the fan to regulate the engine temps at around 205-215f with 50/50 antifreeze.

and do it with just a hint of exhaust smoke,  go over 8kwatt and the smoke will go to black in a hurry.

this is why i got so into the cooling system and upgrading, because using thermosiphon and running direct drive at 1800rpm, getting much over about 6.5 kw or so is about all you can get out of an s195.

i think the 1115 with the same cooling system, will do 22hp at 1800rpm no problem with the same cooling system... the ratings are for thermosiphon cooling which is the limiting factor with these engine's in my opinion.

realizing of course the extra power afforded the method might not be needed for most folks, however if you are chasing max efficiency, you sure as heck want to run the engine at max output in a controlled fashion. getting an additional 1 or 2kw output really has a positive affect on bsfc numbers.  remember the first kw output is the most costly in any setup, each additional dilute that costly first kw output and increase the efficiency in some cases quite markedly.

at the time i was into serious testing (i guess it is now close to 10 years ago) the changfa s195 was able to compete well and ranked right in the middle of all engine's in its class, those from first world country's as used in marine and other apu, and generator service, and bested many offerings from the big boys.

yes i am a strong and maybe even rabid supporter of controlled (even if it is a bit complex) cooling systems,  and even moreso when it comes to applying the same to the changfa s195. 

i just wish we could still get these engines into the country,  the changfa engine's in my opinion have enormous potential that we were just getting into tapping when the EPA made its monstrous decision to ban their import.

oh well, i still have 5 of the 195's so i will never run out of them in this lifetime.

bob g