My (Steveu's) Inverter Generators

[SteveU.]

Hi All
Like Henry I have pretty much covered my home stationary bases on DYI generating now. I get bored. Still kicking and trying to stretch myself.

I started out wanting then to help some of the women family Suburban lots living made themselves dependent on pellet stoves. Grid-goes-down events like ice-storms, windstorms, minor earthquakes, cars into power poles and they Will not have space heat with their Needs-Power pellet stoves.
Need power for the feed auger, combustion tray blower; and anymore, an IC controller panel.
Yeah. Yeah. Can be done with a interruptable battery based power unit always AC Grid hooked up.

For the price of an adequate IPU you can just get a commercially made IC engined inverter-gnerator anymore.
Then have a length of use as long as you do have a fuel supply. You car tank could supply 30+ days on one of the Honda/Yamaha 1000 units.
Then have an overhead of on-demand power to be able to Grid-down have non-combustion electric LED lighting, foods/medication refrigerating and such. Save the portables batteries. Better: recharge the rechargeable. Even run the automatic washing machine!
Remember: I did say the adult women in the family. Much more, down-to-earth daily practical than us family ohh-rah Make-Fire males.

You only on the Honda and Yamaha inverted gnerator line get this addtional overhead of simaltanious possiblities stepping up to thier 2000 model units. Which are actual 2000 watts surge/cold, 1600 watts hot continuous.
Honda and Yamaha then puts larger cast iron bored commercial grade engines in these slightly larger, $200 more, units. They then up's their warranties then from 2 years to 3 years. And that for commercial usages.

I got the Honda Eu2000I first. And have thourally wrung it out for four months now. Plastic encased suitcase model. Very quiet and portable. Ha! A birthday gift for the wife. Very easy to wonam pull strart. ALL of my sisters and adult nieces have started and used this now. (I tell them that I'll give them a screemin' meemie Harbor Freight 2-stroke Yamaha-clone. But they have to buy their own HONDA!)
Wife has come to object to "me" operating, borrowing, toting-around, "wearing out" HER generator. One early still dark morning a drunk into the power pole sudden power outage she finished long hair blower drying, god-child travel bottle of milk warming using her generator to stay on time for pre-scheduled client visits.

So . . . not needing the suitcase queitness. Wanting a larger dispalcement engine for alternative fuels possibilties I save up and hippy-skippy passed the more expensive paneled Honda quiet units and got my own open framed Yamaha EF2800i units.
Some of the performance/use differences I've already put up onto Henry's Honda 1000 topic line.

I did buy service manuals for both of these units.
Here are the guts-of-them differences that I've found

The Honda 2000 has a 15 pole stator. 3300 to 4300 rpm operating range.
The Yamaha 2800 has a 24 pole stator. 2820 to normal 3560 rpm operating range. With a sudden load demand capability flare to 3840 rpm.
Need tear-downs to give a bell permanent magnet count for the edges counts. These are still under maybe have to take back warranties. Later on the full tear-downs.
Both of these have a wild voltage and frequency.

On both the ouput winding are three phase Delta connected.
On both, the inverter is not just an output coil inverter; but a combination function unit incorporating the carburetor speed control stepper motor drivers too. Honda's is a four wire stepper motor. Yamaha's is a five wire stepper motor.
Power supply for both of these combi-function inverters is two separaltely wound output coils. So a two phase AC in.

Units have a separate wound stator output coil as an rpm function. Honda uses this as an input into both the combi-inverter and the separate ignition controller. Yamaha the rpm output coil only goes to the CDI ignition controller.
Both units have an outside the magnet bell external mounted triggering magnet/sensor input also into the ignition controllers. Their actual ignition coils are not flywheel magnet pulsed. Honda's not even close to the flywheel/magnet bell mounted.
They could both engine run "I think" independent by the service manual failure trouble shooting independent of the whole AC power side of it.

I can quote out the wild AC volt ranges for the AC output coils and the inverter power supply coils if anyone interested.

Those interested seem to be for using the inverters in wild voltage/frequency DYI projects.

I can SEE the stator and rotating magnet bell adapted over from the Yamaha and mounted inside my 7.7 hp JaingDong R180A flywheel, replacing it's current factory DC charging stator/magnets set up. That engine is spec diesel rated as 2600 rpm. Not a stretch to see it operating at 2820 rpm.
Need a more modern aircooled Yanmar or Lambardini to go the the full bore 3500 rpm.

Regards
Steve Unruh

[SteveU.]

O.K. directly out of the respective service manual here are the generating output coils test voltages:
Honda EU2000I for the "Main (charging) Windings" 207 - 243 VAC at open circut testing, 4200-4800 RPM. The Honda "Sub (inverter power supplying) Windings" 8 - 16 VAC tested open circut at the same RPM's.
Yamaha EF2800i "Main coil AC voltage" tested open circut at 3550 RPM is to be 160 - 200 VAC. Yamaha inverter power supplying "Sub coil AC voltge" open circut tested at the same 3550 RPM is specified to be 13.5 - 23.0 VAC.

Of course live loads voltages would vary with the loading, temperature and driven RPM.

Both manuals do give open circut resistnace testing readings. DO NOT USE THESE. Too much temperature, voltmeter brand, DOM batteries state of charge to trust resistance readings on coarse wire wound coils.
DO not trust using DOM for coils to grounded testing either on 160 to 243 volt AC capable windings either! A DOM 1.5, 3.0 or even 9.0 volt DC battery loading will not show up all of the grounded coils.
A 120 VAC testing light through a light bulb will do much better. Even then though some vibrating loose coil shorts and shorts to grounds will only show up under actual real dynamic system loaded conditions.
Live loaded oscilloscoping would seem to be the way, eh? ONLY if you become an experienced expert on each and every system type with then known normal, for that system, wave patterns memorized.
A cast iron Niehoff alternator and you will swear every output circuit has windings shorts and/or leaking diodes in it when used to seeing Delco's and Motorola/LN's scoped patterns.

On this Honda and Yamaha the actual generating coils AC frequency ranges are not in the service manuals specified.
These manuals; like me a former auto electrical power system service guy, is/are only concerned with system inputs, and outputs. If it has the proper range of inputs - then DOES NOT have the proper output - What do I change out/reconnect/clean to be able to restore it to usability?
Example. The Yamaha service manual says for "Weak or low AC output" once everything else is checked on the decision tree chart to "Replace the magneto rotor" due to weak magnets.

That hog; those chickens are to eat meats. Pretty IS, what pretty Does. Want to stick around in my immediate world, better do pretty well under good conditions. And buck-up, and trundle-on, still working under adverse conditions.

I give up these systems information for those wanting to put some of these commercial made inverters to other wild frequency/voltages DYI uses.

I will not engange in armchair, lab-rat, speculative "engineering" anymore. The woodgas "community" as a whole has burned me out.
You, Say it. Then You, Do it. YOU! Proof-use it. Or shut the . . . up.

The actual systems generated frequency use ranges will be a function of the number of per leg wound coils poles, the number magnet edge interfaces, and the RPM.
Just think Mondo Many 100,000 cycles. And the high end switching diodes they had to use with the dampening to make these function, live and works around under all abuse conditions. Many, Many DIY best efforts fail once put out into others wide range of abusive uses.

Over 300,000 Honda's 2000's out there in three different production versions over the course of at least 6-8 years.
Over 10,000 Yamaha 2800's out there in commercial use-abuse since I think 1997.
Some may in an alt-energy god-trust. Meaning with alt-energy -  the latest greatest, ohh-wow, world changing Idealist zealot spinner.
I trust world wide use-abuse, years-use, all-users, experiences. Where an earned brand name is put on the line.
Wife's first generation Magtag Neptune front loading washer we bought in 1995 still in service and working. Screw the buy-out recall they mailed to us. Just wipe the door gasket with chlorine snai-wipes and use daily to refresh the below drum held water. Electronically controlled. Variable voltage, direct drum motor driven.
The little Honda inverter unit powers it up and runs it just fine, and safe. Absolutely no reason to go back to wringer washing machines; or a washtub and board.

Steve Unruh

[SteveU.]

Good Morning All
I'll be trying just fuel shutting off on my inverter-generator units from now on.
On another forum I answered the purposeS, functioning and how to disable/by-pass the below carburaetor bowl electric solenoid plunger fuel-well shut off valves now more and more commonly installed on small emissions certified engines.
ONE purpose was to reduce exhaust emissions NOT having 2-3 intake cylinders worth of gasoline/air suck-in and pumped out on an ignition only disable shut down.
Got to thinking. That unburned fuel mix is cylinder washing too.

Fuel supply valve shut off to carb bowl dry engine stops do smell exhaust cleaner.
These stepper motor controlled carbs on these are given a RPM up flare kick at fuel run out to try and keep running at the very end. NO voltage output spiking though. This is better carb mixing well clearing like the long term storage, re-start choking the fuel shut off engine to clear out that last bit of held in the carb fuel.

Fuel burning, is learning
Steve Unruh

[mike90045]

You still have to cut the electrical juice for a couple minutes before fuel runs out, to let things cool down a bit before the cooling airflow stops

[SteveU.]

Thanks for pointing this out Mike.
Yes; if in high electrical (or mechanical) loading's an unloaded cooling down period is needed and wise.
Why all reasonable exhaust turbo equipping manufactures all say, let it idle for a bit before shutting off. Gives a chance for the turbo's center bearing housing to bleed off some heat and not shut down heat spiking, cook the oil to sludge/coke/carbon.

For what i'm doing now with these chest freezers loading I'll be fine.
Full winter use household loading's and I'd be life's shortening.
AC space conditioning folks the worst for heats killing generators. Coming up now fellows. You all be careful and aware out there if running air-cooled engine systems for AC loadings.
I wish I could still get the Casterol 5W-50 synthetic oil I've proofed used for years in my summer use four-stroke aircooled. Making do now with Quicksilver ATV/UTV 5W-40 and Mobile One 0W-40 now.
Ha! Ha! Down at the local bar/coffee shop watering hole, one of my dooomer/gloomer local friends asked me how stupid was I depending on getting these high-tech synthetic oils!! Dragged him out to the towns little shopping center parking lot. Pointed out the upper-yuppie status-mobiles. That BMW. That Mercedes. That Infinty. That Landrover. Each, and every one of those give me enough 0W-40 synthetic for one year of 100 hour oil changes. They will be parked fuel-less. Or with dead electronics issues. The prosaic Chevy's, Fords, Suburu's here the ones be kept running. The 10W-30 vehicles.

I ain't stoop-id. Just do dumb things sometimes. (but only once per occurance)
Regards
Steve Unruh

[SteveU.]

Hi All
I just hit 304 loaded running hours on my Yamaha EF2800i unit in the first 28 days that I've had it.
Problems? The snap on plastic cover to the carburetor stepper control motor has shaken off three times. Removed cover and set aside. Nylon tie-wrapped the motor harness wires to itself for vibration/chaffing control.
The choke serrated bezel nut shook loosen allowing the choke to self-close prematurely on starting up's. Is a NOT a choke cable housing retainer. Is a friction squeezer. A dab of "sticky" on the threads and it's been stable now for a week of running.

On my way to a 4000 hours annual useage.

Next step an exhaust-to-water heat exchange for domestic hot water.
Simple in consept.
Be a challenge on an engine assembly that loaded 2820 RPM shakes with 2-5 mm movement.
Off engine stationary mounted and any exhaust flex piping I've seen real world used would movements work harden and crack.
On engine mounted, then the water in/out lines subjected to this flexing. Still possible. These would have to be put onto a routine replace out scheduled with spares like the sparkplug and engine mounting rubbers.
Somewhere in the 500 to 1500 hours range I'm expecting.

Regards. Keep up your producing/using learning's.
Steve Unruh

[SteveU.]

I've been reading back some of the excellent observations by glort and others that engine speed does not really relate to fuel using consumption, but that working/loading is a better indicator.

Some like Mobile Bob have long streesed to always account for an engine/gens "base load needs".

My Yamaha 2800 is factory manual rated able to run UNLOADED for 24.7 hours on a single tank full of 2.35 US gallons of gasoline. I do not like to engine unloaded run that long as I believe it leads to carboning up.
I have ran unloaded both the Honda 2000 and the Yamaha 2800 on economy speed settings for one gallon US of gasoline many times now to baseline.
Come out on both to 0.09 gallons an hour. I was unable to translate that to grams per hour since gasoline is listed as 6.2 to 7.5 pound per US gallon . . . depending.
This is these systems base fuel consumption.
Now with variable weather temperature changes from 50F to 85F that same one gallon US will last from only 5 hours to 7.5 hours versus the 12+ hours powering my two chest freezers. The freezers needs/loading is what is changing the fuel consumption's.

Realize that on these inverter units under a ~900-1000 watts for the Honda; and under 1200-1500 watts for the Yamaha that the engine speed is not demanded increased at all.
Same air flow base power. Same oil drag flinging/bearings/cam followers/rocker arms, drag base powerneeded. Same piston travel distances.
Combustion pressure power loading may very slightly increase the rings-out pressure, therefore drag. Not much more energy needed though.

Loading does increase exhausts and cooling air heats.
Just more to farm off.

Regards
Steve Unruh

[glort]

My Yamaha 2800 is factory manual rated able to run UNLOADED for 24.7 hours on a single tank full of 2.35 US gallons of gasoline. I do not like to engine unloaded run that long as I believe it leads to carboning up.

I do not believe that to be true for a modern petrol engine.
Maybe 20 or 50 years ago but not today. Unfortunately old beliefs die a very slow death.  Unless an engine is running rich, I can't see where the carbon would come from. With US emission laws particularly being what they are, I reckon you could idle an engine for a month and not see any carbon and if there were, it would be dispatched 2 min after the engine were loaded again.

Not that I am a fan of it, but in this case something like E10 ( 10% ethanol fuel) might help with this as the ethanol content is very clean burning. I'd also go as far as adding minute amounts of water for a steam cleaning effect.  That works with amazing efficiency and a tiny amount of water would be all that was required.

I have seen that Fuel injected "Briggs" type stationary engines are becoming available on fleabay.  Not cheap but the price like everything new will of course come down.  Fascinating that they can do this on such a small scale now.

[SteveU.]

Hey glort you are correct that E10/E15 will carbons deposits prevent and even clean up a bit some.

Here in western Washington State we've been mandated to first be using "oxygenated" gasoline for half a year since the late 1980's. At first it was the MTBE spiked stuff. Made from natural gas. As a different "solvnet" than straight gasoline sure cleaned/clogged a lot of old in-service systems! Then with the later US banning of MTBE, and the national mandated RFEF fuel standards (MUST use ethanol year around) a different "solvent" to give fits in old systems, cleaning/clogging.

Actual combustion chamber. valves, piston crown carbons depositing has many factors. The one universal across the board is the temerature. HOTTER surfaces are better. Right to the points of metals destruction.
Many of the so-called performance advances like motorcycle water cooled, four and five valve heads were actually emissions needed to get the contact surfaces HOT, kept hot enough to keep all those fuel carbons kept hot, excited and willing to CO2 convert.

So that is an aircooled engine manufactures generator dilemma. Enough fan/blades air flow for loaded 100F conditions WILL cold weather/ low loading over-cool, then carboning up.

The oldest outdoor air cooled engine I use is 2005 manufavtured. Met the then 2004 off-road-small-engines emmisions. All other I use are newer to even tighter Regs up into OHC Honda outdoor engines.
They will all still carbon up, ran in cool weather, low loading, low speeds.
I do use mostly hard to get marine-grade non-ethanol gasoline in these for better power and storabilty.
Daily used four-strokes, having been bought new (with no deposits build ups; w/alcohol compatible tanks, lines, etc) I just use the 20% less expensive E10-15 pump crap fuel.
~5% less power. Engines seem to run cooler, at low loadings. Hotter; heavy loading on E10-15.

I only ever used E85 on EFI flex fuel vehicles. HERE 30% more per gallon. Every tank full of this $BIG-Agra-Corp$, boon-fuel will give you ~20-30% less travel range.
Power? Not bad with an alcohol % sensing, multi-mapped computer, Flex-Fuel intended system. Special injectors, fuel pump, lines, elastomers, and tank too.

REgards
Steve Unruh

[glort]

All other I use are newer to even tighter Regs up into OHC Honda outdoor engines.
They will all still carbon up, ran in cool weather, low loading, low speeds.

Can you specify what exactly you consider " Carbon Up" ?

To me that's like getting really heavy deposits on piston crowns and plugs, exhaust and particularly in the case of diesels, Carbon inhibiting the function of the rings.
I also consider a carbon problem to be the hard baked on stuff, not the soft soot that clears itself with a couple of hard revs. It's extremely difficult from what I have sen to get hard carbon from modern petrol unless there is something inherently wrong with the engine or it's tuning. Most I have seen comes from warn engines cooking the excess oil going past the rings or through the valve stems.  That's what forms the hard carbon.

If it were a problem, I'd be just giving the engines a water injection treatment.  Remove the air cleaner, run them up to say 2500 rpm and just trickle some water down the intake.  Back off as the revs drop but after a litre treatment, the things will be clear as a bell.
I use WI permanently on my Veg oil fueled truck which is somewhat over fueled off boost and I have never had any carbon or buildup issues at all. Batch treatment works well, sustained treatment when the engine is being used under load and at RPM is even better because it stops the deposits rather than removes them. It also has a lot of benefits like lowering engine temps under heavy load ( A lot)  and with the addition of some alcohol, can give a worthwhile power boost. Eth/methanol also seems to enhance the cleaning effect.
I break most of the veg fuels parroted mantras yet I have had no trouble with my engines where those that follow the flawed gospel do. I put the use of WI at the top of the list why I can do things year in year out others have trouble with in a very short time.

As far as carbon burn off due to heat, that only happens around 550-600C. You wouldn't want your engine running that hot on the piston crowns or valves. At lower temps it's going to be the fire of the combustion itself combined with the swirl of the incoming and outgoing gasses.  It takes a LOT of heat to cause carbon burnoff by itself.
Vaporizing of the fuel due to engine temp causing phase change is something else which is different to carbon burn off due to heat.

[SteveU.]

Hello back glort
"carboning-up" in these small aircooled four strokes coats the spark plug electrodes, valve faces, combustion chamber and piston top surfaces. Yes, the spark plug will loaded burn off. Some of the other blow out too with loaded higher gasses flows too.
Problem right off is this soft carbon coating insulated heats out transfers. Blows off in patches. Leads to uneven heating. Will that exhaust vlave face and back of face carbons clean off before overheating?
Next problem is carbons do layer, by layer cook on. Yes primarily when cold oil wetted on the next from a cold starting up.

MOPAR Combustion Chamber Cleaner p.n. #4318001AD
Used much for modern Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Ram engine system to restore performances. These all are multi-cylinder active misfire detecting and WILL ignition timing set back with any detected carbon build-up caused wigginess. Net search just the product name and number and watch the videos and forums "runs-better" before and afters.
Of course this carbon removing spray can be used in any engine as needed.
In the US/Canada the SeaFoam product works almost as good for carbons deposits cleaning.

Change of topic direction.
As most know I am into woodgas fueling IC engines.
Here is a new video of Gary Gilmore charcoal gasifier (made from his site grown trees) fueling and loaded running his Harbor Freight Predator inverter-generator. 125CC engine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWZVcgk00Bg

Just so's you all know that I do not intend to keep gasoline fueling mine.
S.U.

[SteveU.]

I am a bit behind in my Yamaha EF2800i run/use hours. Only up to 383 hours now. Still running great with first pull starts, good verifiable power, mechanically quiet and no cold or hot smoking.
I've just had to set it aside for a bit to run/use other new aquired units.
We have a visiting guest-gal with dreams of a new Tiny-House, off-grid. So I ran the H.F. Yammer-clone 2-stroke instead to "sound-condition" her to the $100 solution to the sun-don't shine and your battery bank now needs a transfusion input.

Along about then I found the local Sportsman's Warehouse was now stocking a FIRMAN brand of generators. Thier 80 cc four-stoke 1200/1500 watt unit caught my eye and of course I just had to get, and am now trying one. Model #P01202 $199. USD
www.firmangenerators.com
It does produce the claimed wattage's.
63 pounds, two hands pack-able.
Broken in now after three mineral oil changes and 25 hours of varying loaded running.
Running now on 0W-40 synthetic with one measured gallon for my loaded time testing. So far seems to beat the H.B Yammer clone 2-stroke with ~30% less fuel used.
Behind the Honda 2000 inverter unit by ~30%.
Matches the Yamaha 2800 in my low loaded fuel use but with only 1/2 the power potential available.

AND I AM NOW SICK AND TIRED OF LISTENING TO THESE TWO 3600 RPM SCREAMERS RUNNING HOUR AFTER HOUR!!!
Reminds me well why I've gone to slower speed running, quieter inverted units.

Actually these 63 & 80 cc units are about the same noise easily damped with the three pieces of tipped up plywood trick.
Just different tones for the 2-stroke versus 4-stroke singles.
The 38 pound 2-stroke will be gifted out to one adult niece with a bad shoulder. Her husband would never change to oil on a 4-stroke anyhow. Slide/forget the oil in gasoline mixing and then it is squarely on him.
The 63 pound 4-stroke gifted to a different, younger adult niece with a degree in child education responsible daily for 30+ little ones. She can keep her works/schools refrigerator, refrigerating. The food/beverages warmed for the little-ones. And basic lights on come our predicted regional 9.0 event.

Regards
Steve Unruh

[SteveU.]

Hi All
Hit 402.8 running hours on my Yamaha EF2800i inverter generator unit today. All is still well.
Sometime between tomorrow m-a-y-b-e (been cool raining and a honey-do day) and 500 hours I will pull spark plug and give a de-cabonization spray-in warm-running combustion chamber cleaning out.
Then change over to the new spare spark plug. And adjust the valves.
Regards
Steve Unruh

[veggie]

Hi Steve,

I looks like you are really racking up the hours on your inverter generators.
I may have missed it in your previous posts....but how is your system arranged to make use of these generators?
Do you use them to charge a battery bank? Say 4 hours per day ?
Or are you running loads directly from the generator output?

It is good to know that these tiny units can survive as many hours as you say. I came across another fellow who has 9600 hours on his Honda EU2000i. He installed an Hr meter when he first bought the unit.
These are impressive numbers for such small engines. I suppose the key is to use the best lubricants and change frequently. Also, manage loads properly and avoid continuous loads above 80%.
I am planning to buy one this week.

please keep the updates coming,
Veggie

[SteveU.]

Well currently for myself I am replacing 100% the grid energy I once used to power the four-bay old equipment shed with attached tool-room and freezers room. This same grid meter feeds out to the greenhouse.
This was a few months of low of 2kW/h daily winter to summer months of 10 kW/h daily.
No battery bank needed for this useages. The freezers themselves cold-banked along nicely un-powered for 12 hours nightly.
I want shop air - l live generate. Grind the mower blades - I live generate.
Only for go-get a wheelbarrel of winter stove wood would I need to maybe add one battery, some RV 12 vdc lights. I already have two small automatic auto plug-in battery chargers. One could be always left battery set up for use while daily freezers cooling back down. Easier to just get the wood while freezers generating.
The more loaded engine get better fuel use, versus hour after hour running, waiting for a load.
"Waste" heats off all; engine, charging section, separate battry charger NOT wastes as can be used year around in these unheated spaces. I/we've has only one moring so far I've not needed moring rubber boots from rain, dew-down so far this year. Even summer officail in a week the tool-room likes being kept above tool rusting night air-moisture wring-outs. Hose out the moisture laden exhaust and the other shed-off dry heats very welcomed.
The greenhouse even like the moisture exhaust heat as long as the engine/fuel in good shape to keep the HC's down.

For me I've evolved past the wife's Honda 2000 to my Yamaha 2800 for the larger engine. I want to eventially woodgas fuel this system. The slower operating 171cc Yamaha be better than the 98cc higher speed Honda for woodgas fuel. This 171 cc Yamaha can be up-sized converted to 200 cc. OR. The whole wild frequency AC charging side and inverter package if proves 1000's hour reliable could be grafted onto to my Jang Dong R180 China diesel.

Not much fear electrical overloading, overheating these Honda/Yamaha units. They are good at auto sensing shutting down the AC output side.
For family and friend with no alternative fuels interest other than most economical on pump gasoline I am recommending the 79 cc engined Yamaha 2000 over the Honda. Better controls lay out. Longer warrantee. Has a separate fuel and IG shut offs. Generac singing the glory of their new improved 2000 unit. But . . . . imho they are still not worldwide distributed/use-abused proofed as the Honda/Yamaha's.

Yep.Yep. Any small air cooled, quality oil with 100 hour frequent changed out the only way to make them live long productive lives.
Any fool can kill one by 200-400 hours.

Regards
Steve Unruh