s1100an changfa, chp, variable speed/output build thread

[focodiesel]

Hello all, I am in need of your collective brainpower to help me design and figure out the off-grid setup I will put together in this new year, the goal is to have it running before next winter to ease my utility bill pain. Some of you saw my other post under the changfa/redstone/chinese diesels section, "yanmar clone...slow speed water cooled conversion".  After finding a local changfa type generator set on craigslist locally I had to buy it, this was the first one I've seen locally and not having to pay freight is almost a reason to buy in and of itself. I would like to get as much advise on how I should accomplish my goals with this so please comment and share your knowleadge. I will post regularly here with pics and vids of my progress.

What I'm starting with:

The generator I just purchased has a "changfa" type horizontal water cooled single cylinder engine. It is a s1100an built by Chianghuai Engine Works, I believe the build date is 1999. It is rated at 16hp @2200rpm. The guy I bought it from got it with the house he just bought, it was sitting under the deck. In this small world, it just so happened that my buddy lives next door to this guy, and helped him get it running, so lucky for me I knew the inside scoop on what it took, The engine was stuck and they removed the head and had to hone out some rust, but put oil in, head back on and she fires up. I need to verify whether it is DI or swirl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_p8nhGAJYI

The generator is an 8kw st type, Shows no voltage when it is running. It looks pretty weathered and dirty inside, The armature windings are shorted to ground so if it is salvageable it will take a thorough rebuild.

Currently I heat my water with propane, and space heat comes via electric baseboards (about 4kw). Average electricity consumption not including heat is 1kw. This includes fridge/freezer, electronics, microwave, range, oven, lights, etc. The catch is, within this average load are considerable peak loads such as welders, kilns, oven, motor starts...

I have a good steady supply of wmo, and eventually I would like to build a gasifier to fuel it with as well.

The Initial Plan:

Scrap the ST Gen in favor of a pair of 110-555jho's or whatever mobile bobs latest 48v concoction requires. and drive with a serpentine belt. (although if you think I should go st with split armature to make 48v than convince me, but I don't know if that would be viable with variable and lower rpms). Use an arduino microcontroller to control engine throttle/speed and excitation for the alts, and anything else that is currently being done by others with balmar controllers. Possibly do a lead/lag setup to have only one alt running for lower loads and bring the second on when necessary. I would like to not use traditional batteries at all, instead I will have a 48v nominal ultra-capacitor bank. I am thinking of using two Magnum Energy MS4448PAE inverters paralleled to give 8,800 VA continuous and 17kw surge. I want this system to be flexible and have the ability to vary rpm per the demand, with the lowest demand slowing the engine back to 800rpm or so similar to what veggie has done on his slow speed changfas, so added flywheel mass may be needed. I will add a hydronic unit heater (radiator and fan) to my living space and one to my garage. Plumb the engine water jacket into the heating loop, which will include a heat exchanger tank for domestic hot water (replacing the propane heater). Add an electric water heater into the loop as well to add load and heat if needed. I am thinking a small noise shroud around the engine, than a larger one around that, than the building walls. Hopefully three sound barriers will lower the noise to keep the neighbors off my back. Make and/or install an exhaust heat exchanger. Down the road tie in a 48v PV system to keep the gen from running in the summer.

Well after writing that all down, man do I have my work cut out for me this year!

I guess my first questions right off the bat are:

1. I have done quite a bit of reading and have come to the understanding that ST Generators are self excited, meaning they can black start. Could someone explain to me how this happens? There aren't permenent magnets in the generator somewhere for exitation correct? So if there aren't pm's what creates the initial field?

2. Can ST generators be controlled to generate at varying speeds? or am I going the right direction with the modified leece neville alts?

3. The armature windings on my 8kw st (L1,L2,L3) should not be shorted to ground correct?

4. Has mobil bob or anyone else done a 110-555jho @ 48v yet? any posts, white papers on that matter?

5. Does anyone have clearer copies of the changfa engine manual that you could send me? I downloaded one from here but it is pretty blurry.

Thanks everyone,
-Focodiesel

[glort]

, the goal is to have it running before next winter to ease my utility bill pain.

From this I take it you have power connected to your home already.
that being the case, I would take the easy route and go with an induction motor generator setup.  You (over) drive a regular induction motor with the Diesel engine and feed the power back into the the grid.  Whatever your home is not consuming at the time will turn your meter backwards essentially giving you credit on the power you do use.  You could generate whatever power you wanted at a steady rate which would wind the meter back and then you would be in credit for when those heavy loads are needed.

With what I am being advised with using WMO, you may need to keep your loads constant and well into the engines power output rather than have the thing coasting as it were with lower speeds and outputs.  With the Induction generator setup you could have the engine really working but you only need run it so many hours a week and pump the power back into the grid and then use that more slowly say over several days. You may need to run it every day to keep up with your demands, You'll just have to figure that out but it will be a far simpler and cheaper setup than what you are planning.

The advantage of this setup would be the simplicity and reduced cost over alternators, controllers and inverters etc.  You hook the motor and engine together, spin them up and feed the power back into the the wall and spin the meter backwards or never have the thing spin forward at least.
You can of course tap off the coolant and exhaust heat but it simplifies the electrical side dramatically.  Using power from an induction generator direct has plenty of challenges but back or gridfeed is where these things IMHO are damn hard to beat.

A 5hp motor will give you around 4KW output when used as a generator, I'm not sure what sort of amperage your electrical systems over there take, I know the voltage is lower than ours but I believe you have 3 phase at every outlet so that again simplifies things dramatically. Just work out what you can run and get an appropriate size motor.

[mike90045]

, the goal is to have it running before next winter to ease my utility bill pain.

From this I take it you have power connected to your home already.
that being the case, I would take the easy route and go with an induction motor generator setup.  You (over) drive a regular induction motor with the Diesel engine and feed the power back into the the grid.  Whatever your home is not consuming at the time will turn your meter backwards essentially giving you credit on the power you do use.  You could generate whatever power you wanted at a steady rate which would wind the meter back and then you would be in credit for when those heavy loads are needed. ......

Only if your meter is bi-directional.  Meters installed in the last 15 years are uni-directional, meaning power you generate and backfeed, will ADD to your consumption bill.  It's happening to homeowners who install solar, jump the gun and throw the switch, and then get a surprise in the bill.

Then there is the issue with the energy audit software flagging your bill for a fraud inspection when you fail to consume the "proper amount" of power.  Penalties range from nothing, to being disconnected, then the building gets red-tagged for not having power and therefor, un-occupiable .....   At least be sure you have a code approved transfer switch and fuse/breakers.  I know the induction "generator" shuts off when power is lost, but explain that to the 'droid climbing the pole to drop the wires.

[focodiesel]

I know the voltage is lower than ours but I believe you have 3 phase at every outlet so that again simplifies things dramatically. Just work out what you can run and get an appropriate size motor.

No we only have three phase in commercial and industrial applications, Currently I have single phase. Grid tie'ing was brought up in my first thread http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=3219.0 . Over here there are digital smart meters, and enough regulations and fees to make your head spin, that is why I will go off grid, even with all of the benefits a grid tied system would have.

-Focodiesel

[mobile_bob]

some thoughts and a few answers to your questions

to my knowledge the 1100's are  direct injected, and are some of the most efficient of the chinese horizontals.

the st self excites because of the residual magnetism in the rotor core, sometimes this is lost and you then must re excite by flashing the field, but in my experience this is rare.

yes an st could be regulated to generate at varying speeds, however it cannot do so and produce 60hz power.  if you run slower you will have lower hz, higher speed will make higher hz of course and is likely unwise for various reasons of safety.

recheck the L1, L2 etc, they may have connected or jumpered the center connection to the chassis/frame and this will show as a short to ground... it might be connect at the breaker box that way or who knows where... best to separate all leads and recheck so you know there is no connections to ground/chassis/frame/box or whatever.

the st might not want to restart up if the slip rings are corroded, likely the case if it has sit around a long time unused, and the field might need flashed.

i have tested the 555jho at 48volts nominal, while it will make the requisite 58.8-60plus volts needed to charge and equalize a flooded battery, early testing results have not been as efficient as i would have liked, at least as compared with the same alternator doing 28.8volts charging (24volt nominal).  baring in mind the rectifier bridge was upgraded to 200piv rated diodes to allow operation without blowing out the oem 12volt nominal diodes.  i need to do more work to quantify the results and write up another white paper or an update to the original.

it might be that twin 555jho's charging a split battery bank would be the most efficient using this alternator for 48volt nominal use, that is something i also can test but have not done extensively yet.

optimally the use of one alternator would be most desirable for not only obvious reasons, but also because the output capability is higher, at least in my experience in earlier testing.

the 195 manual is just as good as an 1100 manual because they are basically the same engine, the 195 manuals often also have alternate listings for 1100parts in them. so maybe look for a 195 manual might be helpful.

if the engine is sound, and it sounds like it probably is, you got in my opinion one of the best of the chinese horizontals, and at 15hp rating it is very useful.... my bet is it would handle about 10 kwe output at full rated load at or near sea level.  that is if you enclose the cooling system, add thermostat and a reliable water pump w/radiator or heat exchanger and keep the coolant temps up around 200deg F.

at full output it ought to produce about 10.5kw/hrs per US gallon of diesel fuel making it pretty competitive in efficiency.

fwiw
bob g

[vdubnut62]

My XingDong S1100 is indirect injected.  Just sayin'.
Ron.

[vdubnut62]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/48375249/Chang%2520Chai%2520Manual.pdf

Above is a link to a huge pdf of the chang chairchai S1100 manual that I have if you are interested. I scanned it a couple years ago.


Typing on this Ki dle is a pain!!
Ron.

EDIT!
Ok never mind, the link will not work anymore.....PM me if you want, and I'll send you a link.

Computer illiterate Ron.  (yes, I gave up on the kindle!)

[glort]

Only if your meter is bi-directional.  Meters installed in the last 15 years are uni-directional, meaning power you generate and backfeed, will ADD to your consumption bill.  It's happening to homeowners who install solar, jump the gun and throw the switch, and then get a surprise in the bill.

Then there is the issue with the energy audit software flagging your bill for a fraud inspection when you fail to consume the "proper amount" of power.  Penalties range from nothing, to being disconnected, then the building gets red-tagged for not having power and therefor, un-occupiable .....   At least be sure you have a code approved transfer switch and fuse/breakers.  I know the induction "generator" shuts off when power is lost, but explain that to the 'droid climbing the pole to drop the wires.

For the land of the free, You sure are an over regulated, carefully watched bunch.

How is the audit going to be averted if the OP generates his own power by whatever means and doesn't get screwed over sufficiently... Errr, I mean , use enough power anyway. If his consumption drops, won't that bring up a red light on the gestapo's computer?

What do you guys in the states pay for power anyway?  I hope it's not like fuel where you all get upset about only paying about 60% or less than the rest of the free world.

Sadly, our brainless politicians seem hell bent on sending us down the same path of big brotherhood.  Forced to pay through the nose for everything and no free choice of how you live.  Out here in the backwoods, It may still take a while though.

[focodiesel]

For the land of the free, You sure are an over regulated, carefully watched bunch.

How is the audit going to be averted if the OP generates his own power by whatever means and doesn't get screwed over sufficiently... Errr, I mean , use enough power anyway. If his consumption drops, won't that bring up a red light on the gestapo's computer?

What do you guys in the states pay for power anyway?  I hope it's not like fuel where you all get upset about only paying about 60% or less than the rest of the free world.

Sadly, our brainless politicians seem hell bent on sending us down the same path of big brotherhood.  Forced to pay through the nose for everything and no free choice of how you live.  Out here in the backwoods, It may still take a while though.

currently my provider is a private corporation and not a municipality so I'm hoping there will not be too much trouble getting them to pull their meter off my property, but you never know in this crazy world. I guess I will deal with that hurdle when I am ready and have a fully tested and operating system. The sooner the better though because the amount of laws and regs never shrinks...funny how that works.

[veggie]

1] Thats a JiangDong version of the S1100 engine. Still a good brand name.

2] One could consider pushing the power to a grid tie inverter(GTI), then into the house. This would give you the desired effect.
If the GTI is a UL approved model and the wiring is to code, there may be very little resistance from the uitility if they inquire.
Perhaps be happy if you can just offset a majority of your utility bill.
If you start to inquire about "selling" power back to the grid ther will be contracts to sign and rules to follow.
Most utilities will not accept power from an intermittent internal combustion generator.
In my area they only accept green solar power which is on whenever the sun shines.
Also, they don't buy power from you at the same retail price that you pay. They buy it at the wholesale rate which is much less than retail.

veggie

[focodiesel]

some thoughts and a few answers to your questions

to my knowledge the 1100's are  direct injected, and are some of the most efficient of the chinese horizontals.

the st self excites because of the residual magnetism in the rotor core, sometimes this is lost and you then must re excite by flashing the field, but in my experience this is rare.

yes an st could be regulated to generate at varying speeds, however it cannot do so and produce 60hz power.  if you run slower you will have lower hz, higher speed will make higher hz of course and is likely unwise for various reasons of safety.

Could you elaborate on why an st gen would be unsafe for variable speeds. ( I would not exceed 1800rpm, so lets say 800rpm-1800rpm)

recheck the L1, L2 etc, they may have connected or jumpered the center connection to the chassis/frame and this will show as a short to ground... it might be connect at the breaker box that way or who knows where... best to separate all leads and recheck so you know there is no connections to ground/chassis/frame/box or whatever.

the st might not want to restart up if the slip rings are corroded, likely the case if it has sit around a long time unused, and the field might need flashed.

Thanks for this insight, I will try all of these steps.

i have tested the 555jho at 48volts nominal, while it will make the requisite 58.8-60plus volts needed to charge and equalize a flooded battery, early testing results have not been as efficient as i would have liked, at least as compared with the same alternator doing 28.8volts charging (24volt nominal).  baring in mind the rectifier bridge was upgraded to 200piv rated diodes to allow operation without blowing out the oem 12volt nominal diodes.  i need to do more work to quantify the results and write up another white paper or an update to the original.

it might be that twin 555jho's charging a split battery bank would be the most efficient using this alternator for 48volt nominal use, that is something i also can test but have not done extensively yet.

Please do put out a 48v white paper, I know myself along with many others are waiting eagerly for such a document. Also, thank you very much for your first whitepaper and all your other contributions to the diy/ cogen community, they have tremendous influence.

So is the larger rated diodes the cause for the losses? I would have thought 48v would have been more efficient...

optimally the use of one alternator would be most desirable for not only obvious reasons, but also because the output capability is higher, at least in my experience in earlier testing.

So do you think I should use the st-8 which is direct coupled? I would think trying to get 50v at 800rpm would be less efficient than with two belt driven 555jhos at 50volts each paralleled. Also the 555jhos were designed for variable rpm's, st's are not. What are your thoughts?

Thanks for the help,
-Focodiesel

[Tom Reed]

If you are looking to generate DC, buying a STC 3 phase head would be the ticket. Then you just need to rectify the output with a 3ph rectifier and feed the around 300 vdc into a grid tie inverter. To charge batteries feed the DC into a MPPT charge controller like the MidNight classic and allow it to do the regulating. The beauty of this setup is that you can still pull 120 vac or 3ph ac power off of it.

[Henry W]

some thoughts and a few answers to your questions

to my knowledge the 1100's are  direct injected, and are some of the most efficient of the chinese horizontals.

the st self excites because of the residual magnetism in the rotor core, sometimes this is lost and you then must re excite by flashing the field, but in my experience this is rare.

yes an st could be regulated to generate at varying speeds, however it cannot do so and produce 60hz power.  if you run slower you will have lower hz, higher speed will make higher hz of course and is likely unwise for various reasons of safety.

Could you elaborate on why an st gen would be unsafe for variable speeds. ( I would not exceed 1800rpm, so lets say 800rpm-1800rpm)

recheck the L1, L2 etc, they may have connected or jumpered the center connection to the chassis/frame and this will show as a short to ground... it might be connect at the breaker box that way or who knows where... best to separate all leads and recheck so you know there is no connections to ground/chassis/frame/box or whatever.

the st might not want to restart up if the slip rings are corroded, likely the case if it has sit around a long time unused, and the field might need flashed.

Thanks for this insight, I will try all of these steps.

i have tested the 555jho at 48volts nominal, while it will make the requisite 58.8-60plus volts needed to charge and equalize a flooded battery, early testing results have not been as efficient as i would have liked, at least as compared with the same alternator doing 28.8volts charging (24volt nominal).  baring in mind the rectifier bridge was upgraded to 200piv rated diodes to allow operation without blowing out the oem 12volt nominal diodes.  i need to do more work to quantify the results and write up another white paper or an update to the original.

it might be that twin 555jho's charging a split battery bank would be the most efficient using this alternator for 48volt nominal use, that is something i also can test but have not done extensively yet.

Please do put out a 48v white paper, I know myself along with many others are waiting eagerly for such a document. Also, thank you very much for your first whitepaper and all your other contributions to the diy/ cogen community, they have tremendous influence.

So is the larger rated diodes the cause for the losses? I would have thought 48v would have been more efficient...

optimally the use of one alternator would be most desirable for not only obvious reasons, but also because the output capability is higher, at least in my experience in earlier testing.

So do you think I should use the st-8 which is direct coupled? I would think trying to get 50v at 800rpm would be less efficient than with two belt driven 555jhos at 50volts each paralleled. Also the 555jhos were designed for variable rpm's, st's are not. What are your thoughts?

Thanks for the help,
-Focodiesel

There is a loud metallic rattling sound along with the typical gear train noise of these diesels in your clip. Check the fan on the ST head to see if it is loose.

I have heard of ST generator heads getting damaged form slow running. The power stroke can damage the rotor while running loaded at low speeds. There is lots of mass on that rotor. This is rare but it has happened. I also heard that they will blow apart running them over 1900 RPM's. So do not run them faster than the recommended speed. The 555JHO can take more abuse idling because the rotor is much smaller in diameter and much lighter.

Henry

[glort]

If you are looking to generate DC, buying a STC 3 phase head would be the ticket. Then you just need to rectify the output with a 3ph rectifier and feed the around 300 vdc into a grid tie inverter.

That's essentially what I am doing atm with a 3 Phase motor.

As the OP wants to get off grid, I don't believe the grid tie inverter would work. Mine looks for the Mains voltage and frequency before it will sync up and transfer power. As such, I don't believe, although have never tested, that it can be used in a stand alone as it were configuration.  Maybe it could be possible to trick the thing by having a small Pure sine wave inverter attached so it thinks it's connected to the mains.
Wether or not it tries to back feed that and the consequences are something else again. 

Maybe there is a way to over ride this? If there is I'd sure like to know.

The one I'm using is a proper solar inverter as was fitted to a lot of OEM installations. Wether or not the Chinese Powerjack and the like types are the same, I don't know but from what I have read, I believe they are. I have read of concerns of having live wires at the male plug coming from them and also that this is not live untill it senses and syncs with the mains.

[mobile_bob]

my comment relating to the safety of the st head in variable speed use is mainly for higher speed operation
i probably would not go much over 2000rpm with one, they might survive but then again they might not.

slower should be fine, but the drive will take some beating i would think? maybe not? 

veggie has had good luck, so maybe they would be fine.

chose of drive might make the difference

as for selling back to the grid?

not me, never ever ever, under any conditions!  that power is so hard to make, so costly and dear, my first choice would be using it myself for something or i would not generate it.

now some sort of grid tie scheme to offset the power i buy from them?  that is another matter, best done without them knowing it in my opinion.

but that is just me.

ymmv

bob g