10si information

[Dualfuel]

I am starting a thread to upload all the manuals and pamphlets I have about the 10si. The attached .pdf contains the regulator build up from Delco Remy...it is written at a fundamental level easy for the non-electrical engineer to understand.

[mike90045]

Thanks, I'm going to look it over.

[Dualfuel]

Here is an interesting youtube video of the inside view of a 10si regulator...of special interest to me was when the narrator mentions that the Zener diode is 6.2volts. This number is the first time anywhere  in 35 years, that I have heard it mentioned...I consequently I cannot confirm whether that is true. If anybody else can site a source for the Zener voltage of a 10si regulator, please do so.
Thanks, and as more of my pamphlets surface, I will post them.
DF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by5cL9NPruw

[mobile_bob]

as far as i can tell the 6.2v zenor could have been any voltage within limits, they probably just picked the 6.2 because if is commonly available

they could use other voltages by simply altering the voltage divider resistor values,

at least that is how i see it.

the zenor is there to act as a switch, when the voltage exceeds 6.2vdc within the voltage divider the zenor passes current to the first transistor and shuts it off? which in turn the alternators output voltage drops and the zenor switches off which in turn allows the transistor to turn back on and the voltage climbs..

probably operating at around a few kilohertz?

for whatever that might be worth?

bob g

they might have picked 6.2 because it is approx midway in the 12volt nominal operation range, this might allow the voltage divider circuit to operate more linearly within the regulator envelope?

[Dualfuel]

10si regulator wiring connections

a. 1(L/Trio) this is the field wire, on the car its brown, it should run through a 10ohm resistor or an idiot light
b. Trio, this lug is the same connection as the spade terminal marked 1, only its the actual internal connection to the diode trio.
c. F(A) this is the actual lug that the brush holder bolts too. Its the rotor field connection.
d. the little metal tab....when the regulator is installed in the alternator, and you want to by pass it for a test, you ground this tab with a nail, through the "D" shaped hole in the alternator housing.
e. (-) this the lug that the regulator actually bolts to the alternator housing with...its a negative ground.
f. 2(S) this spade terminal is known as the sense wire. This is the power to the zener diode.

[BruceM]

+1 BobG's comment re: the zener voltage.  This regulator has been value engineered to the max.  Not a penny on surge or spike protection or temperature compensation, efficiency, heat reduction or anything except the essential basic function.  Brilliant piece of value engineering, if you're into that sort of thing.

[Dualfuel]

Dear Bruce,
The .pdf I posted earlier, on pg. 21, speaks of temperature compensation. R2 is shown as a resistor symbol with an arrow through it. Is there a different kind of temperature compensation? All I know is that our inverter has a temperature probe on the batteries themselves, not in the inverter. Could it have been better to have R2 located on the battery box?

So far I have refrained from interjecting any of my opinion about the 10si. I still don't have any opinion about the 10si. What isn't an opinion is the fact that I have been powering my camp with these alternators for the last 12 years. They are the only alternator I can afford. I went nuts in 2008 and bought barrels full of them for a $1.00 a piece. which leads to this thread.
My goal here is to post every fact I can about them. I have found that when I power the camp in earnest, the 10si will fail about every 3 months or so. So I have had a lot of them...and they all behave differently...which is why I am laying out everything I know, so I can find the gaps in my knowledge.
Currently, I have set up a little test area to explore the addition of a resistor in series with spade terminal 2. The idea is to make the zener "see" a lower voltage and stay "off" longer. If I didn't say that right, I mean to boost output voltage by a few volts.
The other goal was to figure out how I used to start the engine, touch a battery wire to 1 and then walk away. When the engine ran out of fuel, then the circuit went dead and didn't draw. These two things were great at the camp because I could leave the engine in the wood shed, and transmit the electricity into the camp, and it was quiet. At night, I could just go to sleep, leaving the engine to run out of fuel on its own.

[glort]

I have found that when I power the camp in earnest, the 10si will fail about every 3 months or so.

Have you determined if there is a common failure point and if so what it is or do they seem to fall over for different reasons?

In the setup you have, when powering your camp, do they get particularly hot?
Do you run them one at a time or have you tried running 2 together to share the load?

[Dualfuel]

Dear Glort,
The majority of the failures occur because I do not cover or shelter the sets. So things like the positive terminal corrode. The regulators fail. But....I don't have reliable data either... I have seldom bothered to repair the alternators....a better sense of things would be to tell you about the things that don't fail...i.e. Rotor windings and stators seldom fail. Bearings get loud but don't fail.
Brushes wear out.
Mostly corrosion.
I have run up to three alternators on the same circuit. Its funny, one alternator seems to be the main deal, then the others fill in. BTW, this was done with three separate engines too, so I can tell what each alternator was doing by listening to the engine load down. Take the main one off line and the others would start really giving it. I have no proof or numbers.
sometimes they do get hot....in fact, when turned by the yanmar...you wont see the engine for awhile, but the alternator melts out of the snow first...
Like I wrote earlier...I am getting serious about this, because I realize, I have never seen these guys behave consistently. Maybe, the oldest ones all act the same but there are so many variants that I decided to get to know them better.

On vehicles, a common thing is for one of the diodes in the diode bridge to fail.
Thx, BPJ

[BruceM]

Dualfuel, No, your regulator isn't  temperature compensated.  The text description was general.  R2 in the PDF file is an adjustable resistor, so that the set voltage can be changed. Your actual regulator does not have that feature, either.

Paralleling these won't work very well, as you have found, unless you replace or modify the regulators.  You need only one voltage control/regulator,  which will control the power transistors of each alternator.

A single analog comparator circuit, a small transistor and a Mosfet or Darlington Power transistor for each alternator would do the job, if you're up for some breadboard soldering.  No power circuits are really appropriate for beginners, though.

There are commercial regulators designed for such multi-alternator setups.

[Dualfuel]

Ahhhhhh, very good BruceM, This is why I am putting all this out there, in excruciating detail. Riddle me this, then...one trait I have found is that 10si alternators sometimes vary greatly from GMs 14.7vdc mantra, and this with nothing wrong. Could it be the variable resistor R2? I have never seen an adjustment. This is why I often times, in earlier days, changed the 10si for the older Delcotron with external regulator, with adjustable set point.
Since the days of ganging 10sis together, I have rearranged my power requirements...mainly by adding the wind generator and solar panels...and have no further need for that peculiar set up. Now I have a need for one 10si turned by the 2.8Kw Yanmar...and one is a handful for the Yanmar.
If I need to go bigger, I intend to use the Leece Neville....but its difficult to get motivated when the Kubota/Leroy Somer will power the house while charging batteries...
The valuable use for the 10si is to be belted up to a small gasoline engine, and carted around jump starting various vehicles or equipment.

BPJ

[glort]

Its funny, one alternator seems to be the main deal, then the others fill in.

This has been my experience when running a couple of alts on the lister. One gets noticeably hotter than the other and you can even hear it working harder.  After thinking over the problem I came to the conclusion I had a duffus moment and realised the hot one was right in front of the exhaust. I concluded because they suck cooling air from the back, it was pulling the heat off the pipe.  I went to some trouble to find a bit of pipe with a bend that well cleared the alt and wrapped it for good measure. Still, that same alt is working much harder.

I'm not sure why they won't work OK together, both should sense the voltage and regulate the output accordingly. I have watched the battery voltage with a multimeter and it's doesn't oscillate or hunt around.
I did find one of the series of alts I use has a 3rd wire that seems to be a different sort of sense wire or maybe a direct input to the field or rotor. If you short it to positive. the alt output immediately tries to take the battery over 20 Volts before it stalls out the 5 HP Diesel engine.  Open circuit it goes to 60 + volts before it has an internal shutdown.

Maybe, the oldest ones all act the same but there are so many variants that I decided to get to know them better.

Bit like the hitachis I am getting and using.  Went through a large pile of the things and it was very hard to find  a pair with the exact same numbers on the stickers.  I had to make sure I was looking at model and not serial numbers.  Haven'[t tried the matched number pair on the roid yet but I have 3 pairs now when I do get around to it.


I got pipped on an ebay auction on a 160A leece a couple of days back. I don't mind when they beat me in an auction by $100 but when they beat me by .50c or something, It burns!

[BruceM]

The stock regulators will not be that precise on the regulated voltage.  The power transistor HFE will vary, and the zener voltage will vary.  The voltage divider resistors will vary.  The regulator with the lowest regulation voltage "wins" and will do all the work. 

[Dualfuel]

Hi everyone,
I have had a nagging question stemming from the dismal comments about the PMA converted Delcos over on the Other power site.
Is the a graph of the energy curve of the 10SI with it's normal regulator?
Specifically, I wonder what the power into the rotor versus the power out of the stator is, versus RPM.

DF