48V gas powered charger

[bentcrafter]

It appears to be a Motorola 8MR, originally a marine alternator, one of the few CG approved alts for a gas engine, by the CG.

This one certainly would not be CG approved, due to the modifications and open brush holders.

Of interest to also note is it is an isolated ground...or was in it's factory form. The largest 8MR was only 120 amp cold @12 volt.

So if this alt is/was rated at  12v (1920w rated) stator, and a 24v (2860w rated) stator, it's not by Motorola/Leece.

I also don't think it's a drop in for the triple nickle, as it is /was a different form factor.

Lloyd

Now I'm thinking an elder Prestolite except most of those housings weren't round, but it def come from the merger somewhere. They had some larger amp models that weren't Marine related, bu used the same/similar housing

Lloyd

The alternator pictured above (connected to the Honda motor) is, in fact a genuine Leece-Neville 110-555. Look closely and you can see the remnants of the Leece-Neville sticker is still on the top of the case - I have 3 of these alternators, all are 8HLA 110-555 units. Trust me.  

Here's the 24v stator & brushes packaging


The 24v stator is currently installed and physically matches the 555 housing & 12v rotor... perfectly. Which doesn't surprise because the 24v stator shown, was factory installed in select 8HLA housings - I know of at least 4 models that used this 24v stator.  

[bentcrafter]

Hey Mr bentcrafter
Do NOT use the 12 volt  stator pictured. It has a leg shorted or grounded out some where as evidenced by the overheated, blackened flaking insulation.

Yes, thank you for pointing that out, I hadn't noticed it - doesn't really matter anyway since I'm not using ANY 12v stators... good or bad.

A wye wound three phase stator will somw where have a common lead pigtail connector. A delta wound/connected never have this. Have to see a picture of the complete stator to say for sure if delta or wye.  Two leads to each flag end not a 100% reliable indicator of delta due to parallel lead windings possible on some.

Leece-Neville clearly states on its web site that the 24v stator I ordered and installed, is in fact Delta. There is no other connections - just 3 pairs of 2 wires each (as pictured).

[mobile_bob]

Bentcrafter

you have a pm!  

thanks
bob g\

ps.
quote "Yes, thank you for pointing that out, I hadn't noticed it - doesn't really matter anyway since I'm not using ANY 12v stators... good or bad." end quote

i for one would be interested in your explanation as to why not?  i understand that you are going for a 24 volt nominal system, and i understand you are chasing every last Nth degree of efficiency,, so i am interested in your thinking on avoiding the 12volt stators (new or good used stator of course)

you are wanting to avoid belt drive losses by using the lovejoy, and that is fine, but you will lose more using the 24 volt stator over the use of a 12volt stator than you would even with the worst belt drive.

care to elaborate?

[Mad_Labs]

So, am I correct that if I rewire the the 14864JB for a wye configuration and I up the RPMs to 5000 I should be able to use it to charge but not equalize a 48V bank? How much power can I hope to pull from it?

Jonathan

[mobile_bob]

according to my calcs

if you connect the alternator in question, leece neville 270amp A0014864jb
from delta to wye and turn it to 5krpm

it should produce a maximum of ~55volts at full amperage of ~150amps cold
and maybe 120amps hot at that output

my bet is at lower amperage the voltage will climb plenty high enough to equalize at over 60vdc without problems.  probably still be able to exceed 60vdc at full excitation @5krpm, hot and putting out ~90amps or a bit better.

basically 5kwatts is probably close to its capability under those conditions.

you will need to upgrade the rectifier diodes as you know, and you will want some sort of sophisticated controller/regulation, which under the circumstances i would suggest a balmar or similar because of it amp manager capability and switchable equalization capability.

i have wye connected the stator of a 170amp version of your leece neville, and got it to charging and equalization voltage running at 4800rpm.

i have also done the same with a 270amp stator, however the efficiency is down to about 52% or so iirc, the stator runs hot but under max temps safely enough. i ended up adapting it for water cooling and that took care of that, but it did not improve efficiency (never expected it to) but it would probably improve reliability and lifespan.  having said that i don't think it is necessary to water cool it.

i have two other leece neville oem alternators built on the same frame, one is rated at 48volts and uses an external rectifier pack, the other is rated at 54vdc and has internal recifiers like all the others, both of which are wye connected stators, both of which are rated at 90amps max output.  both rare units that were limited production units made for other oem's.  leece lists them as being thermally limited to 90amps max output, so i would expect that is the most power you can get out of them wye connected with oem fan cooling.

fwiw
bob g

[Mad_Labs]

Bob,

That all sounds pretty good. as to diodes, do you think I should look for ones that I can press into the exisiting diode pack or make a remote mounted pack? Regulator is no problem, the one I make reads amps, volts and batt temperature.

Actually, there is a small issue I have to solve, using a 10 bit ADC with a 5V reference to read up to 62 volts with decebt resolution and stability. For testing I can just use a power pot though.

Thanks for all the help!

Jonathan

[Mad_Labs]

Oops, forgot to ask:

How does a dual A belt with a 3.55 diameter drive pully and a 2.55 on the alt? That would give a RPM boost from 3600 to 5011.

Jonathan

[mobile_bob]

two A belts should be fine, however i would step up to two AX series belts
or similar in the automotive series. notched belts from quality manufactures are capable of about a 40% increase in power transmission over the plain belts.

i would have to consult the manufactures engineering to say for certain, but my guess is two such belts could safely handle all you will ask from this alternator.

i use twin AA belts (the hexagonal section belts) the drive pulley is about 9" and the driven are about 3.5"  my operating rpm is 1800 at the engine and 4800 at the alternators. i drive two such alternators and a sanden AC compressor. of course not all at once, but from memory the engineering allows for both alternators to be driven to near capacity with this single cylinder diesel engine. 

in testing i drive one alternator to provide for 12volt charging of the starting battery and provide for 12volt bus needs, the other i have pulled in excess of 5 kwatts without any signs of undue slippage or much in the way of heat gain... they will run at about 105 degree F on a 70 degree day, and they run this warm pretty much regardless of load, so flexing probably is responsible for the lions share of  the warming of the belts.  i also run them no tighter than is necessary to keep down belt whip, which is remarkably loose in this application, far looser than i have ever been able to run belts on a mid or heavy truck application.

so i would expect twin A drive using good quality notched belts would do every bit as good as twin AA section belts and in reality they should do better than mine.

as for the diodes, i think for a leece neville jb series running at 55-60vdc and around 100amps, i would probably seriously consider using external mount rectifiers.

also on your regulator/controller design, you might want to consider embedding a temp sensor into the stator and monitor the temperature under heavy load. i would be a good thing to keep an eye on that with software so that on a very hot day, under a heavy charge that might go on for hours, you could avoid damage to the alternator by tapering back the charge rate if things got too hot.

you would probably have to check with leece neville for the max stator temps, however most modern alternators are made to handle underhood temps of 205 degree's plus and the newest ones are rated for 225 degree F underhood temps. now this is underhood air that is used for cooling so stator temps are probably allowed to be substantially over that? how much more i don't know, but i would check!

as to resolution of your adc, you might consider two sets of code, one for standard charge range, and another used only for equalization. a single line set high or low could then switch the code between the two?  you probably already have considered that?   just a thought.


fwiw
bob g

[SteveU.]

Hi Jonathan
Your pulleys you propose are way too small for a reliable, efficient V belt system.
Take a belt in hand and squeeze it down to that radius and feel the rubber and cord compressing. Now imagine this compression/decompression happening continuously all along the belt under a load. Makes heat. Degrades and softens the belt. Heat is lost energy.

I like belts. Good way to have effective ratio changes. Have a slippable "Make smoke!" easily replaceable weak link to protect both the driving and the driven sides.
I think this pixilation with direct drive for efficiency is just plain dumb goes against decades of in field experiences and $$$ wasteful.
Only valid reasons for this are to reduce manufacturing costs and user dumbing down maintenance awareness. NOT valid reasons for DO IT YOURSELF goals.
We WANT to be more aware of the process! Using readily available parts and systems.

So on this unit set up with V belts do not go below a millions of hours experience proven 3 1/2" alt head pulley. Correspondently larger driving end pulley for the ratio you want.
For ideal V belt life and the highest energy transfer you would really want to go 3X these diameters and drop down and with the greater "stick-tion" surface areas back to a single V belt. Compress/bend the belt less for the lowest heating, longest life and high drive efficiency - lawn mower deck proven. Spendy and specialized for the pulleys though to fit your set up. You'll know when your pulleys and belt are not heating anymore after a loaded RPM running usage.

Want due to installation space concerns smaller pulleys than this is where you then go to a polygroove belt system. Even more expensive for the pulleys. Force your self into much tighter alignment setting up. AND when coupled to a push/accelerated for 60-90 degrees then pulling-back/decelerating for 660-630 degrees in a single cylinder IC engine then you really do want to have an oscillation dampened spring arm belt tensioner. Otherwise you will get per cycle micro slipping flat spotting of the face of the belt. Then with your over tensioning to combat this along with the now rough running flat spotted belt you will hammer out whichever bearing or bearing pocket is the weakest. Ford and GM had to 1950's re-learn this in thier late 80's trasuition period. "Arm Strong" tightening was killing their unit bearings.

This acceleration/deceleration in small single cylinder IC engine cycling is also why cogged/timing belts or a chain drive system would be dumb also.

Yes I spent the money and time to have bought and set up to try in one form or another all of these with small IC engines.

Go V Belts! (using experienced learned good pulleying)

Regards
Steve Unruh

[bentcrafter]

I think this pixilation with direct drive for efficiency is just plain dumb goes against decades of in field experiences and $$$ wasteful.
Only valid reasons for this are to reduce manufacturing costs and user dumbing down maintenance awareness. NOT valid reasons for DO IT YOURSELF goals.
We WANT to be more aware of the process! Using readily available parts and systems.

Steve Unruh

Wow... Had I known that diesels and belt drives were a prerequisite to joining this form, I would've gone elsewhere... posthaste. I guess I was just too "dumb" to realize it before I stabbed the 'join' button. 

[mobile_bob]

Bent

what happened to all your pics?

hopefully you haven't decided to take your ball and go away?

bob g

[bentcrafter]

Bent

hopefully you haven't decided to take your ball and go away?

bob g

Is that the way you see it?

Reality is, my "ball" was rejected from the onset - akin to bringing a bowling ball to a football game.

You repeatedly ask what my intentions are, yet you consistently reject my chosen format. It's as though everyone attempting to charge battering needs to embrace YOUR alternator configured YOUR way.

* Spin the gen head at 4k - even when I expressed a firm decision not to.
* The criticism of Mosfet rectification.
* Criticism of using a 24v stator - even when it was revealed that, apparently, no one here even knew it existed... let alone knew it was readily available. 
* And members recklessly criticizing direct drives, labeling individuals who do, as "dumb".





   

 

[Lloyd]

Hey Bent,

Do get so bent.

Being new here what you may not have realized it, people were trying to help you based on experience. That experience includes results of known failures, it's  not just their opinion
against your own.

But one thing I know there is always room to go against the grain, but knowing the risk decrease failed attempts.

LLoyd

Bent

hopefully you haven't decided to take your ball and go away?

bob g

Is that the way you see it?

Reality is, my "ball" was rejected from the onset - akin to bringing a bowling ball to a football game.

You repeatedly ask what my intentions are, yet you consistently reject my chosen format. It's as though everyone attempting to charge battering needs to embrace YOUR alternator configured YOUR way.

* Spin the gen head at 4k - even when I expressed a firm decision not to.
* The criticism of Mosfet rectification.
* Criticism of using a 24v stator - even when it was revealed that, apparently, no one here even knew it existed... let alone knew it was readily available. 
* And members recklessly criticizing direct drives, labeling individuals who do, as "dumb".





   

 

[mobile_bob]

Bent

with all due respect, yes that is the way i see it!
how else are we to see it? when all your pictures have been removed?

now lets address your concerns, and then i will layout mine

fair enough?

"You repeatedly ask what my intentions are, yet you consistently reject my chosen format."

yes i have asked you what your goals are, and i think that is fair enough given the amount of help given to you by this forum. without having some idea what your goals are, we are left to explain all possible outcomes and make all sorts of recommendations, some of which are not appropriate for your use, maybe?  so when i ask you what your goals are, it is so that we all can have an understanding of what specifically you are trying to accomplish so that we don't have to go down all sorts of paths that are unnecessary,   our time is worth something too you know!  we are only trying to help as best we can, but we need you to help us help you!

"It's as though everyone attempting to charge battering needs to embrace YOUR alternator configured YOUR way."

quite frankly i could care the less how you go about charging batteries, and i would strongly support you trying other methods, it is likely you or someone else will find a better way, or at least another way that is equally as good, however...
you are here asking questions, and i am answering them with info based on over 30 years of rewinding, repurposing, and researching these machines.  "my way" as you refer to it is only one possible way, that i have proven works. it is a way that i have invested several hundreds of hours in R&D, and at least a couple grand in parts to arrive at, so yes i get very particular in the explanation of how it is done, because...

if you choose to adapt my method and end up toasting an expensive controller, i do not want, nor would i deserve the blame for your misapplication.  it is a two way street, i don't want anyone to torch good equipment, and i don't want the bad press for someone doing something other than what i describe.

again, i am all for other methods, just do it, prove it, write a white paper and publish it, and if it is legit,  i for one will promote it!

"* Spin the gen head at 4k - even when I expressed a firm decision not to."

you can spin it any speed you like, i am only trying to relate to you what you are likely to get as a result, i have no attachment to any particular rpm, i just know what works for a 555 alternator used as i described it in the paper.


" The criticism of Mosfet rectification."

the only criticism is this, complexity, cost, and reliability.  yes the mosfet is far more efficient, but at what cost? and if overall efficiency is the end goal, there are other more effective and simpler means to that end. again it all depends on what your goals are?  what are you goals?

"* Criticism of using a 24v stator - even when it was revealed that, apparently, no one here even knew it existed... let alone knew it was readily available.  "

now you are trying even my patience, what ever gave you the idea that know one here knew of a 24volt stator for these alternators or specifically the 555 type alternator?  i for one have known of such being available for as long as this unit type has been in production, about 20 odd years now!  i also knew it was available in both wye and delta configuration, even though both may not be currently in production, i don't know that, and could care the less... again if efficiency is your goal, using either for a 24volt charger is not the way to go, sorry but it is a fact as inconvenient as that might be.

"* And members recklessly criticizing direct drives, labeling individuals who do, as "dumb"."

i can only suspect there are those that are getting a bit tired of offering help and guidance only to have it ignored?  the use of a lovejoy is nothing new here, and the use of belts are nothing new either... many folks here have tried both and know the pitfalls each presents to specific applications, again without knowing specifically the goals of the project it is hard to support the use of a lovejoy because it locks you into a very narrow rpm range. most folks don't want to be locked into a specific rpm range until such time that they know what the requisite rpm needed will be.

you come alone with the story of a converted 200cc engine, modified by yourself and estimated to produce over 10hp, however when asked you offer no specific's.
now i understand it might be fair for you not to want to release info about your engine just yet, but it is incumbent  upon you to state that up front!  you could easily state, that you have significant time and money invested in it, and are not ready to release specific's about the unit, that would be fair, but quite another to simply ignore requests for info.

there is one thing you will find here that will get you into a lot of heat very quickly, that is if you are trying to use this forums resources to develop a commercial product without stepping up and stating your purpose to start with. many here would gladly help with the development of a product, however none are keen on being used.

i am not saying that you are guilty of this, but if the shoe fits?

so there you have it.

bob g

[EBI-WPO]

Well put Bob,
I wish Bentcrafter listed some profile info, his argument style reminds me of someone I used to work for.

Anyway, hope he see's the light.

Terry

Edit: my bad, I confused Bentcrafter with the OP (sorry about that)