Brits trump Americans (again)!

[AdeV]

Yes! This time it's true - the Willem C. Andree engine with it's cheap-ass 100,000 hour guarantee has been TRUMPED by someone in the UK selling Listeroids - who claims, get this, that Lister's "are known" to run over 200,000 unattended!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270875634475

OK, in fairness, he (she?) doesn't actually guarantee they'll last 200k hours unattended (where there are gypos, you'd be lucky if it lasted 20 hours before being swiped and sold to a scrap yard), and obviously the title of this post is pure provocation (aka "made you look").

Still, 200k hours eh? I wonder if that's running or not....  

[dieselgman]

Yep, made me look!  We've had this discussion a little while ago about the potential mis-representation that the original Lister references make.
It makes me wonder about how copyrights are handled in England.

dieselgman

[Henry W]

I just responded to the seller:

You wrote: The Lister CS range of engines are Slow RPM (650RPM to 700RPM) 4 stroke single cylinder stationary engines. They are over engineered and have been known to run unattended for in excess of 200,000 hours.

Can you show us docummented proof that these engines will run 100,000 hrs. This is half the hours you are claiming.

From what I see it is just a cheap Indian copy of the true Lister CS 6/1 and it will have to be torn apart and rebuilt correctly before it is put into use. And than it might get 20,000 hours when constantly maintained before a major rebuild.

[Henry W]

I just read the listing over and noticed it is a Kit engine. Still, I would like to see one last 20,000 unattended.

[fabricator]

How do they get away with the big Lister sticker on it? Probably because the trade mark has lapsed? Under description there is a blatant lie, it says "new, unsed, undamaged" if they are pre run they are damaged.

[JohnF]

Maximum I ever got from one of my engines was 26,000 hours - but I put a LOT of time and effort into it.  Certainly wasn't unattended!

[Henry W]

For years I followed JohnF with his Listeroid adverture and he is proof that it takes lots of hours of maintenance to get a Listeroid to to run over 20,000 hours.

The sad thing is new people get sucked into the idea that the Listeroid 6/1 or True Lister CS 6/1 is the engine that will run for years with very little maintenance. This is why it is so important to teach new forum members about this myth.

Henry

[BruceM]

How can an engine that must be manually oiled every 8 hrs be  run unattended for 200,000 hrs.
Must be some sort of Tardis induced time warp the brits have cooked up.

I suspect a much slowed down Kubota or Perkins/Cat engine might be a better choice for lowest maintenance. 

The best reason for the Listeroid is the ultra low rpm, and of course the hobby/antique engine appeal for some.  Not that ultra low rpm doesn't come with it's own (Listerflicker) issues.

[fabricator]

Crap So I'm never gonna get to the point where I can build a 500 gallon fuel tank and just walk away.

[Henry W]

How can an engine that must be manually oiled every 8 hrs be  run unattended for 200,000 hrs.
Must be some sort of Tardis induced time warp the brits have cooked up.

I suspect a much slowed down Kubota or Perkins/Cat engine might be a better choice for lowest maintenance.  

The best reason for the Listeroid is the ultra low rpm, and of course the hobby/antique engine appeal for some.  Not that ultra low rpm doesn't come with it's own (Listerflicker) issues.

This is some of the reasons why I switched over to Kubota engines. One of the main reasons for the switch is the parts network in my area. The injectors and injector pumps are affordable from Kubota. They are about half the price of thier competitors and I can get the parts within 24 hours if needed.

My recommendation for people is find out which engine manufactures has a good parts network in the area. And than find out the cost of common items like injectors and injector pumps ect, ect.... This alone will help a person choose an engine manufacture.

Most modern engines like Kubota, Perkins/Cat, Yanmar and Isuzu have a proven track resord in U.S., Canada and other places in the world for being very reliable work horses. So it is safe for me to say that by choosing one of these brands of engines will give a person good service.

I do know for a fact that direct drive Kubota generators using the D905 and D1005 base engines have logged on over 20,000 hours with proper maintenance. I also heard from a Kubota application engineer that some of these engines have over 40,000 hours on them. I feel 40,000 hours is impressive, yet the maintenance on the engines had to be exceptional.

Some modern Chinese engines look very promising also. Laidong engines is one of them. I don't know much about them, but I like what I read and seen of them in person. The parts network in the U.S. is small, but most common parts are very inexpensive and can be purchased and delivered at a reasonable time. If the EPA does not choke the diesel engines out of the U.S. I think we might be hearing more of these engines in the future.

Henry

[dieselgman]

Henry,

As long as there is a viable shipping and communications system available, a strong parts network is available for most makes regardless of locale. This is especially true of the major solid brands you mention and of course Lister as well. There are a few we would not recommend based on these same factors - perhaps Deutz, Lombardini might fall into this area (strong engines but difficult or expensive to get parts for). Isuzu has also proven a bit difficult for us to source wear and tear components - we have a small fleet of rentals using the Isuzu 4 cylinder.

Based on this same criteria, we believe that Lister is a very strong contender for minimum maintenance. Not the modern water-cooled variety though.

In Alaska, the major oil companies switched over from Lister gensets to Kubota in the late 1990's. These decisions are sometimes driven by a different set of parameters than you or I might use as owners of only 1 or 2 machines. In part we as individuals have limited budgets for repair and replacements. The oil companies fully expect to replace these expendable fleets on a 3 to 5-year cycle regardless of condition. The Kubotas have been a solid choice for the reasons you mention, this is pleasing to the bean counters for this large fleet. The references to life-expectancy figures of 20 to 40 k/hours however do not seem to match up that well with the mainstream of these engines. We buy up their surplus and see a lot of blown up stuff well under the 10,000 hour mark. Still, in a modern water-cooled engine, we would take the Kubota hands-down over a similar Lister any day. The modern water-cooled Listers just have not lived up to the Lister reputation that was built on their legacy engines over the years. Go back a generation and the picture is much different though. The Lister air-cooled stuff is legendary for its reliability and life-expectancy.

I offer these observations based on long-term experience as an owner and operator of this equipment as well as a business owner supplying parts and service for these machines all over the world.

dieselgman

[Henry W]

dieselgman,
I am referring to new modern water cooled engines. I did not mention the Lister Petter engines because they are not as abundent in the U.S. and Canada as the ones I listed. The dealer and parts network are not as broad. Granted it is said they make some good engines but where I live dealer and parts availability could be an issue. This is important to me. I was considering a Lister Petter LPWS2 about a year ago when I looked at a LPWS3 that was at a dealer. But I felt the parts availability network was not there. At that time the dealers within a 300 mile radus carried no parts for that engine. I spoke to Lister Petter USA and they were in the process of moving to a new location. They did not have any LPWS2's on hand and they have to order one and it might take up to 3 months to get one. Things might of changed for the better lately but about a year ago I was not willing to take that chance. Another thing I was concerned was the reliability of the LPWS2. There is not much documentation available. Granted I did like some features on the LPWS2. One of the features are seperate injector pumps for each injector.

About the Kubota engines blowing up under the 10,000 mark. The question that we have to ask is how hard were they ran and what type of maintenance was done on it. most any engine will expire early if they are ran near continuous full output without proper maintenance.

Yes you are correct mentioning about the life-expectancy figures of 20 to 40 k/hours however do not seem to match up that well with the mainstream of these engines. But Kubota's and others do have some engines with over 20,000 hours on them. Yes it is rare but they are out there. I don't expect my D1005 engine to last that long, but knowing that there are a very few out there comforts me. If I get 7000-10,000 out of it I will be happy. But the amount of use it see's I might not be around long enough to see it happen.

I personaly looked at a Kubota genset with the D905 engine with over 20,000 hours a couple years ago at a Generator manufacture that is an autherized Kubota  dealer and service department. All I could say is it looked pretty good with that many hours on it. My guess the reason it lasted so long was it ran continuous at a stable temperature and a strong maintenance program was intact. The reason they had it in the shop is the owner purchased a new replacement and that one was removed.

Now one thing I do know about the D series Kubota's. If the engine does not have any means to help get up to the stable operating temperature in sub zero temperatures they will wear out much faster.  This would be hard on any make of engine.

To get back to Lister Petter engines. I feel Lister Petter USA needs to do more than they are. Like I mentioned before, I like some features the LPWS2 and LPWS3 engines have. I would like to see Lister Petter expand thier dealer and parts network. I feel this would attract more customers and get them competitive with other engine manufactures here in the US.

I agree that some of the air cooled Lister and Lister Petter engines are ledgendary when used and serviced properly. I also feel they have an advantage in cold sub zero temps like up in Alaska. NO COOLANT TO FREEZE

Henry

[dieselgman]

Henry,

I concur completely with all you have said here... Lister/Petter has badly dropped the ball on their US operations as well as stepping out of a leading role in innovation and expansion for the past decade or longer. This has been very frustrating for us dealers and especially bad for end-users.

We do NOT recommend their Alpha series engines as a strong competitor to the others mentioned, and certainly NOT in terms of longevity. The US Military has used these extensively in battlefield and other support equipment so there is a fair amount of activity in rebuild and maintenance parts for them. These do come up fairly often at auction sales. My company has picked up the ball for much of the legacy Lister equipment including the Alpha series... LPA/LPW/LPWS. We maintain parts stocks into the $ millions and ship practically anywhere in the world.

dieselgman