Economics of waste motor oil....

[BioHazard]

I don't want to start another arguement about this issue, just want to get a few facts straight. I want to buy a waste oil heater for my shop, they range from about $2500 to $5000+ for a good/safe/clean factory built unit.

My problem is that I can probably buy a listeroid for around $2500 instead and run it on waste motor oil. The only question is how much fuel can I get away with burning before the engine needs a rebuild? I know we've had a few WMO burners around here, what kind of hours are you getting out of your engines?

The way I see it is WMO is worth about $3.50/gallon as a heat source. That means if I'm going to spend $2500, then I first want to collect 715 gallons or $2500 worth of waste oil so I know I can break even. I already have a couple hundred gallons.

Do you think I can burn ~700+ gallons of WMO in a listeroid with a ~3kw load before major maintainence is needed? How many hours would that be, roughly 2000-2500 hours of run time I think? I would be happy at that point if the engine needed a complete rebuild.

Basically the WMO heater is the practical solution, but the listeroid is what the hillbilly in me wants.

[Carlb]

I know this really doesn't answer your question but,  take a look at the babington burner that Ronamar built,  small compact design, quiet and cost very little to build.   

[dieselgman]

It is a little difficult to figure your specific economics, but at $3.50 gallon as a direct heat source with very little maintenance cost other than filtering and handling then the shop heater/burner is the way to go. The waste oil heater can also provide a substantial amount of heat - well beyond what a single Lister will generate. Of course I don't know the size of your shop, the amount of insulation it has, nor your specific climate situation.

Then with all those fuel savings you can invest in a Lister with tank of diesel and run a 'safe' mixture of say 15% WMO in that for your electrical power. I believe that the consensus shows that a light percentage of filtered & treated WMO will run your diesel plant without mishaps or risk of extra maintenance costs.

dieselgman

[JohnF]

First - Happy Christmas!

I have not run a Listeroid on WMO for any extended periods, have tried it on a limited basis just to prove that the concept works.  Having said that, there are a lot of people out there with knowledge that say WMO will damage an engine quite quickly - much faster than say, WVO.  A typical 6/1 (in my case) uses about 2 pints/hr when under a decent load, so either a gallon every 4 hours (Cdn) or every 3.5 hours (U.S.), so you should get through your 700 gallons in about 2800 hours or a bit less.  Whether the engine will make it that far is another question and depends on cleanliness of the fuel and impurities.

I also have a WVO heater which provides the bulk of my winter heat.  It burns the oil cleanly (no chimney smoke) and the burner tip is rated for 1.1 gallons/hr (U.S.)  Winters in Ontario I can go through 15-20 gallons/day but as it is free I really don't care.  The one downside to the WVO burner (mine is a boiler and I run rads in the house) is that it needs to be cleaned out every two weeks or so.  Takes about an hour to get the heavy white soot out of the water heater tubes and the firebox.  The burner tip usually needs attention then too - a good clean out with a bit of Varsol does it.  Apart from that it is a great way to heat.  I do preventative maintenance every two weeks or so so I don't have a problem at night when it is -35C outside - hate that!

My boiler system is quite efficient and while I'm not anal (read just plain 'ol too lazy to check!) about it I "think" it is the better option fuel-wise.  My 6/1 will only provide enough waste heat to keep the chill off in the early fall and late spring - are you thinking of generating electricity to power heaters?  Probably not very efficient.

Just sayin"......YMMV.

[BioHazard]

I'm too tired to do the heat calculations right now, but if I got a lister it would be a complete replacement for grid power and heat for the shop. I don't need a ton of heat here in my climate in NW Oregon, the shop naturally stays above 40 and I like to work at about 55-60. (about 2500 sq ft) I would use it mainly to power lights and plan on getting another bigger gen to run things like a welder. Probably would run an air compressor directly off the listeroid. It would run a few kilowatts of lighting for about 12 hours at a time.

The problem is my shop is considered a commercial address even though it's not really commercial, both the gas and electric companies want ridiculous deposits before they will turn on service. (more than a listeroid) I have electric heat right now but I'd like to replace that with a listeroid using the coolant and exhaust heat to warm the shop.

I know it's kind of an apples to oranges question, listeroid vs oil heater, but I figure if they cost the same I can have a lot more fun with an engine.   If anybody knows of a UL approved type WMO heater for under $2500 I would love to hear about it, I kind of shy away from making my own for insurance reasons.

Happy christmas everyone!

[billswan]

Bio

Well I tried to heat a 4000 square foot well insulated shop-garage in southern minnesota BUT. Have given up on the listeroid 10/1 or 16/1 just to much wear and noise. The 10/1 had to run round the clock to keep the building up to temp. The 16/1 was better because it could over heat the hydronic floor heat so it could be off for the hours I was in there. But it was wearing out to fast for my liking. I now have a clean burn brand waste oil boiler installed and yes it cost a wad but it is quiet, except for the cycling of the air compressor.

Now if you are only heating 2500sf and don't mind the noise go for it.  An 8/1 might be just right for you. Some heat some electricity. On WMO my experience says it might last 2000 hours before you need sleeve piston and rings. But that last 1/3 of it's life might require a electric starter to get it running from low compression. Also the oil changes seem like should be simple but VERY messy and the thick filthy oil was so bad I had to just burn that crap in a bucket in my incinerator. Could not bring my self to mix that sludge into the fuel stream. I changed oil at about every 300 hours fyi.

Looking back on my experience I should have invested in an waste oil burner sooner of course I can see that the value of wmo might soon go up to the point where soon it might not be free.

Bio have you checked into geothermal heating or air to air heat pump? Could be a heat pump driven by a roid in winter when you are around and by the grid when you are not around could work.

[bschwartz]

Get the listeroid.  They are chick magnets, allow the sun to shine at night, and will lower your cholerterol.  What more could you ask for?

Didn't anyone else read this as a plea to help him justify the purchase?

[fabricator]

Unless you have a very small shop and not much electric machinery a lister will likely not be a complete replacement for grid power, maybe if you get one of the big twins, then your talkin more fuel usage also.

[dieselgman]

Get at least an 18/1 (or 20/1) and get a 3-phase STC head, those are real thumpers! And in a small shop in a moderate climate like that, should be enough to heat that quite well.

dieselgman

[akghound]

Unless you have a very small shop and not much electric machinery a lister will likely not be a complete replacement for grid power, maybe if you get one of the big twins, then your talkin more fuel usage also.

I would stay away for the twin. A large single is a better choice. I have had both. We heated our house off a 20/2 for a couple winters with no problem for lack of heat. Of course th e engine load maskes a big difference. To add load we used electric heaters. Fuel efficient, not really.
Ken Gardner

[dieselgman]

Right, you can get up to 20 horsepower in one of the oversized Listeroid singles - and 30hp in a twin. Of course the original Dursley designs are out the window with these big thumpers. Most people concur that a larger bore and stroke single is the way to go rather than opting for the complexity of a twin cylinder version.

dieselgman

[Ronmar]

That 6/1 will yield around 18,000 BTU/HR in heat from the cooling system at a 3KW load. This of course varies with load so right around 6000 BTU per KW of electric load.  The exhaust should be good for the same, but I think you will have issues collecting it, especially on WMO fuel.  WMO has a little higher BTU content than diesel, so you should in theory burn a little less than 3/8 gallon per 3KW hr.  Along that line I would say 700 gallon should run a little over 2000 hours?

A few KW of lights?  Must be a big shop?  From a shop standpoint, 3KW isn't a lot of power.  I don't think I could run much of a compressor off of it, especially with any other loads...

Just got my Babington heater running.  It burns about a quart per hour(about 40KBTU worth).  Still need to add some heatsink fins to increase heat transfer to the air. The beauty of the Babington with WMO is that I don't filter any more tha thru a sock as there are no fine orifices for the oil to pass thru.  Tightest place is the taper in the needle valve I use for a throttle.  It is a long way from turnkey.  It is also a long way from $2500...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSFYVSTbyzA

[mbryner]

+1 for Brett's response.

Up to about 200 hours now on WMO, 6 hours just yesterday w/ all the family here and lots of electricity used.

[veggie]

Get the listeroid.  They are chick magnets, allow the sun to shine at night, and will lower your cholerterol.  What more could you ask for?

Didn't anyone else read this as a plea to help him justify the purchase?

Yep...real chick magnets.
Since I got my Listeroid, I get a lot more winks and smiles from the girls in the neighborhood.
Hmmmmm.....or maybe it's the new hair cut  

There's something about a Listeroid man that women can't resist.

veggie

[BioHazard]

Unless you have a very small shop and not much electric machinery a lister will likely not be a complete replacement for grid power, maybe if you get one of the big twins, then your talkin more fuel usage also.

Yeah, I will still need a larger engine to power shop tools. Maybe just a big ass gas generator. Most of my useage in the shop is pretty low though, my power bill only shows about 4kwh/day. (if I don't turn the heaters on) My overhead lights are around 1kw and that would leave me with about 2kw to play with. I only spend a few hours there a day, so I don't need to heat the whole thing 24/7. I was thinking I could store heat in water and then use that as a bigger blast of heat when I'm working, with the lister running while I'm not there to heat it up.

If I did this I would probably have a small battery bank and a few solar panels to go with it. I *REALLY* want to tell the power company that I don't need their power....