Induction motor - generator conversion

[rl71459]

interesting

[vdubnut62]

Mine is still the same spinny meter that has been here for uh.......25 years I think.
Ron

[billswan]

just got informed by my power coop the spinney meter will be changed out with the electronic meters that will be read by radio. south central Minnesota. the meter will report to the home office every 2 HOURS!!
Can you say time of day price increase coming


Billswan

[BioHazard]

Can you say time of day price increase coming

I already do that voluntarily.   The price goes up to 12 cents during the day (about 2 cents higher than usual) but falls to about 4 cents at night. Works out great for me since I keep odd hours anyway...

I think for a few extra dollars the power company gives you access to real time meter info online, giving you all sorts of graphs and stuff about when and how much power you used. I'm not so sure I want the power company tracking my useage like that though.....

Somehow, the day they came out to replace my spinny meter, they did it without even cutting my power. None of my clocks blinked. How the heck did they do that?!

[DanG]

Back east in Maryland (certainly not out here in Minnesota) the powco changed the waveform between 10pm and 6am which 'fools' residential meters into registering less energy was used - so there was a built in off-peak rate without the need for fancy tracking equipment.

I'd sure admire the powco's if they were to charge double for someones whirlpool-hot tub-lap pool-sauna energy consumption to keep costs down for people simply able to afford basics - but that would be an RF point-of-use ID chip and open a whole can of confusion like the intellectual copyright anti-pirating formats. There's be people reprogramming their 60-inch teevees to read as ipods and italian marble fountains registered as goldfish bowls...

[rcavictim]

Back east in Maryland (certainly not out here in Minnesota) the powco changed the waveform between 10pm and 6am which 'fools' residential meters into registering less energy was used - so there was a built in off-peak rate without the need for fancy tracking equipment.

Anyone here know what the power company modified waveform looks like?  If this works one could build a black box that does the same thing and hook it between the meter and the house to achieve the same thing in the daytime when rates are higher.

[bschwartz]

     "I'd sure admire the powco's if they were to charge double for someones whirlpool-hot tub-lap pool-sauna energy consumption to keep costs down for people simply able to afford basic"

Wow Dan, you are OK with the PoCo telling you what you can use electricity for?!?!!??

AC in the summer is for rich people, so you can only us a small fan.
NO, you can't have a freezer for your fresh killed elk, you have to buy your meat in a store, and use the small freezer on your refrigerator............

NO THANKS.

[mike90045]

Back east in Maryland (certainly not out here in Minnesota) the powco changed the waveform between 10pm and 6am which 'fools' residential meters into registering less energy was used - so there was a built in off-peak rate without the need for fancy tracking equipment.

I'd sure admire the powco's if they were to charge double for someones whirlpool-hot tub-lap pool-sauna energy consumption to keep costs down for people simply able to afford basics - but that would be an RF point-of-use ID chip and open a whole can of confusion like the intellectual copyright anti-pirating formats. There's be people reprogramming their 60-inch teevees to read as ipods and italian marble fountains registered as goldfish bowls...

That's the 2nd reason for the smart meters, Smart Appliances.  Uh oh, grid is suffering, shut down air conditioning and iron lungs in Sector 7.   Still not enough power - reset the thermostats in the fridges and freezers.    Cold morning, and not enough power, reset the thermostats to 65F instead of 72.      In a couple years, the RF modules will be in all large appliances, and will be controlled by the Power company.   
Uh oh, falling short on executive bonuses this year, wait till peak rate, and turn on air conditioners and heaters.

[DanG]

I'm not psycho-gonzo on smart appliances and or carbon-neutral rabid, etc. but I am a realist.

. ..build a black box that does the same thing and hook it between the meter and the house.. .

- rcavictim

Bzzzt. It'd have to be upstream of the meter, the best one can do downstream is active power factor correction.  I do not know if PEPCO (Potomac Electric Power Company) still has that policy in place - but doing laundry & dish washing late at night is still 1st nature after 20 years away.

Wow Dan, you are OK with the PoCo telling you what you can use electricity for?

- bschwartz

No one is suggesting shutting off appliances, rather it would be up to the owners to accept cost increases to use those items at their convenience & pleasure. Free market. If you have a better idea, get active in your local co-op or city/county/state  council/board/legislature now so you can protect the right to force everyone to continue to subsidize the wealthy's chosen lifestyle.

We here at this house have a carcass of the ancient central A/C compressor out back connected to a RF peak-use cut out box - that bought us 10% off the entire electric utility bill year-round until they changed it to summer months only. It hasn't run for three years yet the box earns us 10% discount June through August. I'm guilty of having the ability to run it but I choose not to. A smart RF ID would keep it from appearing like I am defrauding the powco. Shades of gray maybe but something I've thought about.

Twist words and squall all you want to, POUT is already here!  Other than severing ties with utility generating capacity there is nothing either you or I can do about it - if it is point-of-use-tabulation (POUT) versus rolling brown/blackouts then a sin-tax on luxury items maybe won't seem so bad? (sin-tax like on tobacco and alcohol) I've got 4,000 watts of solar waiting for a different living arrangement. How about you?

In a couple years, the RF modules will be in all large appliances, and will be controlled by the Power company

-mike90045

Again, nowhere is it forecast the regulations will allow disabling appliances without advance negotiations & notice - however in a robust free-market economy if one wants (for example) heated sidewalks so the snow never sticks they would be expected to pay more for that particular power usage  than the widow who only keeps one lamp at a time on, keeps her house at 62°F all winter and brooms off her walks every two hours all night long to keep them clear.

[rcavictim]

. ..build a black box that does the same thing and hook it between the meter and the house.. .

- rcavictim

Bzzzt. It'd have to be upstream of the meter, the best one can do downstream is active power factor correction. 

I'm not convinced that it would matter on which side of the meter the 'modulation' was applied. 

[possumlivingdotcom]

. ..build a black box that does the same thing and hook it between the meter and the house.. .

- rcavictim

Bzzzt. It'd have to be upstream of the meter, the best one can do downstream is active power factor correction. 

I'm not convinced that it would matter on which side of the meter the 'modulation' was applied. 

It would be pretty hard to modulate the entire grid, which is what you would be trying to do.

[rcavictim]

. ..build a black box that does the same thing and hook it between the meter and the house.. .

- rcavictim

Bzzzt. It'd have to be upstream of the meter, the best one can do downstream is active power factor correction. 

I'm not convinced that it would matter on which side of the meter the 'modulation' was applied. 

It would be pretty hard to modulate the entire grid, which is what you would be trying to do.

I totally disagree.  You would be chopping the power flow at the house side of the meter.  There would be no energy gobbled by the grid from your 'modulator'.  This would be no different than flipping your mains breaker on and off rapidly.  The energy used to flip that switch is not gobbled up by the entire grid, but the pattern or 'modulation' you created WOULD be seen across the meter as long as loads in the house were turned on.

[DanG]

You would be chopping the power flow at the house side of the meter...

Done correctly, power-factor correction decouples load from input line but there are switchmode power circuit losses.

Capacitive PFC schemes to make motors & A/C-refrigeration compressors run more efficiently may have good acceptance down south where heat pumps, A/C, or large whole house house fans - swamp coolers - etc. are the rule. $70-90 off eBay, and if it makes the utility power play nicer...

[rcavictim]

You would be chopping the power flow at the house side of the meter...

Done correctly, power-factor correction decouples load from input line but there are switchmode power circuit losses.

Capacitive PFC schemes to make motors & A/C-refrigeration compressors run more efficiently may have good acceptance down south where heat pumps, A/C, or large whole house house fans - swamp coolers - etc. are the rule. $70-90 off eBay, and if it makes the utility power play nicer...

Dan,

I was not referring to power factor correction.  I was referring to the 'mystery' waveform used apparently by the power company as mentioned above to fool the meter into thinking less power had passed through it.  As you know, power factor correction, if anything, makes the meter read most correctly the actual or true power flowing through it.

[LowGear]

Old fashioned timers.  OK, I've never measured their power needs for the little motor that runs the clock but I heat water when our solar program should be paying off biggest.  We don't have them fancy meters.  In fact, when we upgraded to Grid Tie they now have to come out and read the three counter meter visually.  One step forward and three backward.

When you replace your water heater get a big one and heat the water from midnight till 4 AM and then off until the next midnight. 

Could you freeze extra hard in the middle of the night in the same way?

Does anyone have any idea how much power those 240 volt timer motors take to run 24-7?

Casey