Expected life expectancy from WMO?

[d34]

I wish kerosene was cheaper here.  Currently RUG is 2.97/gal and kerosene is just under 5. 

[BioHazard]

Well, I certainly would expect increased wear with WMO, but that's why I'm asking. Say a good lister will go 10,000 hours on clean diesel fuel. Now if I cut the expected engine life back to 2000 hours, does that seem reasonable for WMO? Even after it "dies" from WMO we're only talking about a piston/liner/bearing change mostly...right? And if it lasts longer than that - happy surprise. I would be ok thinning up to maybe 10% with offroad diesel, and maybe 10% natural gas if it increased engine life.

Basically it comes down to this for me. If I burned WMO, then I would have completely free electricity and heat. (and a hobby) How many months does a ~$2000 lister have to last before it pays for itself and I can send it off for scrap? Right now I'm paying at least $300/month to my utility companies.

Am I also correct that waste transmission fluid is better than waste motor oil? (thinner/no carbon)

[BioHazard]

Let me explain a little more. Basically I've been eyeing Bob's 28/2 petteroid. Good deal, and I'm within driving distance. That should be good for 10kw easy, right?

10kw x 2000 hours = 20,000kwh x $0.12 each = $2400

Just a rough guess, 2000 gallons of WMO fuel in 2000 hours = 140,000 BTU x 2000, let's say I capture 50% of that. That's equal to 1400 therms, which if I bought from the gas company would cost more than $1600.

Total production in 2000 hours of service = $4,000. Say I spend 2 grand on the engine, I'm still 2 grand ahead, and I've finally scratched that "I NEED TO BURN WMO" itch...

Also, if the engine does last 5000 or 10000 hours, then I'd be way, way ahead...but that would probably take 10 or 20 years to happen.

Does that sound reasonable to anybody? Or am I out of my mind?

[BioHazard]

this is why veg oil is used world wide by all sort of people in diesel engines and why you don't hear about WMO being used.

I agree WMO is bad for any engine, you just have to accept some level of damage for free fuel. One thing I like about WMO is that it lasts forever, and actually gets better with age as the stuff settles out of it.

[billswan]

Well, I certainly would expect increased wear with WMO, but that's why I'm asking. Say a good lister will go 10,000 hours on clean diesel fuel. Now if I cut the expected engine life back to 2000 hours, does that seem reasonable for WMO? Even after it "dies" from WMO we're only talking about a piston/liner/bearing change mostly...right? And if it lasts longer than that - happy surprise. I would be ok thinning up to maybe 10% with offroad diesel, and maybe 10% natural gas if it increased engine life.

Basically it comes down to this for me. If I burned WMO, then I would have completely free electricity and heat. (and a hobby) How many months does a ~$2000 lister have to last before it pays for itself and I can send it off for scrap? Right now I'm paying at least $300/month to my utility companies.

Am I also correct that waste transmission fluid is better than waste motor oil? (thinner/no carbon)

Some people have posted that automatic transmission fluid has to much clutch particles in it.

Just repeating what I have read. Seems to me a guy should be able to filter that stuff out.

Billswan

[mobile_bob]

so maybe we are back to a "cracking tower" to distill the waste motor oil and recover
the clean additive free oil stock to use as a fuel.

i know cognos is going to really like this,,,, not!

or how about gasifying the waste motor oil stock, that should leave the nasty particles behind
it shouldn't take pyrolysis temps to get a combustible gas off hot oil, the smoking fumes should be combustible?

or we accept a higher wear as been alluded to, and balance it against the cost of the fuel stocks
i still think 5k hours is attainable, especially with well filtered, dry, low ash oils.

then what?  a couple hundred dollars of replacement parts? cylinder liner, rings and maybe a piston and big end brg (which probably is due anyway)?

more testing is in order, certainly cutting the feedstock with pump diesel probably will help, the question is how much diesel as a percentage?

only one way to determine that,....   testing!

bob g

[billswan]

Bob it just takes to much heat to distill oil, say nothing of the danger.

I believe that the lister-oid is an poor candidate for WMO the precup just runs to cold. Unless full load and max compression is continiously applied it just carbons up. Even the original lister manual called for a de carbon every 1000 hours.

I have decided to drag out my 16/1 metro which is a direct injected cup in piston. It won't take to many hours on Wmo to see if it likes it better than the 10/1. Although when i bought it from sam crosby I believe he warned me that WMO is going to be hard on it. OH man I wounder what a sleeve and piston + rings would cost for that ODD BALL.
Oh what about balance........ no no no...............what have i done............

Billswan

[BioHazard]

I believe that the lister-oid is an poor candidate for WMO the precup just runs to cold. Unless full load and max compression is continiously applied it just carbons up. Even the original lister manual called for a de carbon every 1000 hours.

Ok, so what engine would be the absolute best choice for burning WMO? Honestly I don't know a lot about these big diesels. To me, if it's big and green and has a giant flywheel, it's a lister or listeroid.

On the other hand what about the Metro 28/2 "petteroid" bob is trying to get rid of? How well do you guys think that engine specifically would be suited to WMO?

The way I figure, the bigger the engine, the more $$$ it can generate before it wears out.

[spencer1885]

The first thing is your engine won't last 5000 hours on WMO and you will have to factor in the cost of a thinner like RUG.
Also you are not going to use all the power you can produce so your calculations don't work.

[Geno]

Let me explain a little more. Basically I've been eyeing Bob's 28/2 petteroid. Good deal, and I'm within driving distance. That should be good for 10kw easy, right?

10kw x 2000 hours = 20,000kwh x $0.12 each = $2400

Just a rough guess, 2000 gallons of WMO fuel in 2000 hours = 140,000 BTU x 2000, let's say I capture 50% of that. That's equal to 1400 therms, which if I bought from the gas company would cost more than $1600.

Total production in 2000 hours of service = $4,000. Say I spend 2 grand on the engine, I'm still 2 grand ahead, and I've finally scratched that "I NEED TO BURN WMO" itch...

Also, if the engine does last 5000 or 10000 hours, then I'd be way, way ahead...but that would probably take 10 or 20 years to happen.

Does that sound reasonable to anybody? Or am I out of my mind?

I'd bet there would be some additional costs before a fully functional cogen unit is up and running. Pumps, pipe, insulation, valves, heat exchangers, fittings, wire, breakers, breaker box, transfer switch, instrumentation, fans, thermostats, antifreeze, radiator, frame, concrete, fuel filtering equipment, hardware and more.

Not meaning to rain on your parade but there are lots of bits and pieces needed. Been there, done that.

I believe that the lister-oid is an poor candidate for WMO the precup just runs to cold. Unless full load and max compression is continiously applied it just carbons up. Even the original lister manual called for a de carbon every 1000 hours.

Ok, so what engine would be the absolute best choice for burning WMO? Honestly I don't know a lot about these big diesels. To me, if it's big and green and has a giant flywheel, it's a lister or listeroid.

On the other hand what about the Metro 28/2 "petteroid" bob is trying to get rid of? How well do you guys think that engine specifically would be suited to WMO?

The way I figure, the bigger the engine, the more $$$ it can generate before it wears out.

Wartsila


Thanks, Geno

[spencer1885]

It's not the carbon that's the problem it's the additives and auto transmission fluid has lots of those to.

[spencer1885]

Mick,
You will have to use more kerosene to get the same thinning as when using RUG.
Buying kerosene or RUG or even diesel costs money making your free fuel no longer free.
Work out parts costs and a thinner and it starts to get to a point of not being worth doing.
The only way is to use free misfuel as a thinner.
Spencer

[BioHazard]

The first thing is your engine won't last 5000 hours on WMO

Do you really know that for a fact? One thing I was just thinking of is that the listeroids that are actually used in india, probably don't get very clean fuel.

Also you are not going to use all the power you can produce so your calculations don't work.

I surely can. Anything extra would go into dump loads and battery charging. My plan would be to keep the engine as fully loaded as possible. Also in the summer I would really like to fit an A/C compressor and have oil fired air conditioning.

My power is billed based on the time that I use it. During the peak hours of the day, it cost 12 cents/KWH and that's when my generator would be running. Later in the day the power prices drop to "mid peak" and "off peak", which are only 6 cents and 4 cents/KWH. I won't be trying to compete with that with my generator. Even if I ran it 4 hours/day (unlikely) that would only be 1460 hours/year.

I'd bet there would be some additional costs before a fully functional cogen unit is up and running. Pumps, pipe, insulation, valves, heat exchangers, fittings, wire, breakers, breaker box, transfer switch, instrumentation, fans, thermostats, antifreeze, radiator, frame, concrete, fuel filtering equipment, hardware and more.

I definately agree with that, however most of the necessary extras like gen heads, inverters, concrete, controllers, etc - will probably last nearly a lifetime regardless of what fuel I'm using. Plus, even when the engines gives out from WMO use, we're only talking a couple hundred bucks for a rebuild. The crankcase/crankshaft, and some other stuff should last darn near forever.

Basically it's like this. I WANT a listeroid. I have wanted one for a long, long time. On the other hand, if I'm burning pump diesel, and I don't have anything to power it with, that's just not going to happen. A cogenerator is my only realistic option.

You also have to keep in mind this is not just a tool, but a hobby.

[BioHazard]

Another question - what about thinning WMO with bad/old gasoline? I've got at least 30 gallons of it around the shop, and I'm sure I could find more where that came from.

[spencer1885]

Yes that's good and RUG is just short for regular unleaded gas/petrol.