billswan's 10/1 dies, funeral services pending

[bschwartz]

Yes Bill, it is a CMD cam.  It looks OK for an Indian part.
Your issue with finding 10/1 parts is why I went with a 6/1.  More power would have been nice, but parts are easier to find on my low powered thumper.

Good luck.

[JohnF]

Bill;

I might have rings and sleeves for a 10/1.  Don't know why yours are being eaten by WMO, mine tend to be fine after 20k hours.....PM me if you need anything.

[billswan]

Bill;

I might have rings and sleeves for a 10/1.  Don't know why yours are being eaten by WMO, mine tend to be fine after 20k hours.....PM me if you need anything.

John

My guess is the quality of the Omega branded engine is as low as can possibly be and still be sold.

It was an engine that popped up on ebay from a seller in California. I paid 960$ and 300 of that was freight.

During the cleanup and reassembly process I found lots of sand and machine shop debris.

Some of the parts were inferior like the machine work on the small end of the rod would never have lasted.

Inside of block was never cleaned up even close to what a guy would call (well they tried).

Big end of rod not set up right.

Tappets did not turn. Very poor face on them.

Cylinder not installed true to piston stroke, scuffing on piston and one side of sleeve from the couple of minutes they had test run the wreck.

Dirt between head and block destroyed original head gasket.

I never did start it this is what was found on disassembling of the critter.

I can say I wish I would have bough from a higher shelf.

By the way the spare set of rings that came with it are total scrap in my opinion and are not even a exact match to what was in the engine. As the aluminum piston in the engine carries 5 rings 2 of which are oil rings and the spare set has only 1 oil ring.

I also wish when I reassembled the engine I had checked piston skirt clearance as from memory I believe it was at least .002 too large right from the start.

I am also guessing that the quality of the metals in the sleeve and the rings was so low that well they just wore at excessive speeds. I had a 3 inch ring magnet in the crankcase and on every oil change it was always very covered with metal particles. Excessive skirt clearance no help there!

As for burning waste motor oil I am reasonably sure it is well filtered as the injection pump and injector have not shown signs of wear. So I don't think the abrasive's are coming from the oil.

So for now I have to believe it is basically a case of "if you buy cheap you get a product not capable of doing what it was intended to do". And I have to also believe it was a way to sell a lot of inferior parts out of the country of India that is. I other words buyer be ware!!

John I will send you a pm Thanks.

Billswan

[billswan]

Well guys

More in on the autopsy.



There are all the dings in the piston caused by chunks of carbon dropping out of the precup nice!

The sleeve is wore out as there is about .008 to .009 inch taper and a definite ridge at the top.

Plus there is a pit that did not exist when I reassembled it, in the inside of the sleeve it is small but must have been an imperfection in the metal. It is the small white spot that shows in the pix below.Pit goes deep about 2/5 through the side. Sorry for the less than expert photos.



Now the top ring is wore down to I would say 60% of it's starting size. And the associated groove in the piston is worn wide. When a new ring is laid into the grove it takes .035 inch worth of feller gauge to fill the extra space. The second groove takes .008 to fill the wear so no use going on the piston is also trash.
Here is a pix of the used top ring beside a new ring. Light color new dark used.


The skirt clearance measures about .007 to .008 at the bottom of the cylinder depending on the spot you pick to measure. Should be about .005 in my opinion on this low performance slow turning thumper.

All in 1775 hours with a 1000 of that since the about 20th of November. Still think it is crappy parts that caused most of the problem. And the rest is the white ash.

Any questions?

Billswan

[spencer1885]

The pictures that Billswan has posted show the same wear that I reported to him in a post on the LEF when his engine was displaying the same symptoms as my genuine Lister CS did at 1800 hours on WMO.
I have also spoken to a person on the Lister CSOG forum who was also using large multi cylinder generators on WMO and he also confirmed that they last about 1800 hours before dying a slow death of heavy breathing and eventually not be able to start them.
When he stripped engines down he found them to be worn out and now he just replaces them with another engine.
He did not tell me why he needs so much power and I did not ask but from the pictures he sent me I guessed it was something like corn drying or some other industrial process.
It is probably still viable to use WMO for power generation with a battery back and keep the hours low and then rebuild the engine once a year, but CHP is not going to be viable.
CHP puts too many hours on the engine and the daily carbon problems with the injector and exhaust heat exchanger just make it pointless.
Heating with WMO on the other hand has been a massive success and I feel this is where people should spend there time and money on set up a system.
If you go into the Lister engine gallery with the link posted by someone else previously, you can see my Omni waste oil fired central heating boiler, and also in the conservatory, is a radiant Thermobile WMO heater which I fitted a back boiler to.

[billswan]

The pictures that Billswan has posted show the same wear that I reported to him in a post on the LEF when his engine was displaying the same symptoms as my genuine Lister CS did at 1800 hours on WMO.
I have also spoken to a person on the Lister CSOG forum who was also using large multi cylinder generators on WMO and he also confirmed that they last about 1800 hours before dying a slow death of heavy breathing and eventually not be able to start them.
When he stripped engines down he found them to be worn out and now he just replaces them with another engine.
He did not tell me why he needs so much power and I did not ask but from the pictures he sent me I guessed it was something like corn drying or some other industrial process.
It is probably still viable to use WMO for power generation with a battery back and keep the hours low and then rebuild the engine once a year, but CHP is not going to be viable.
CHP puts too many hours on the engine and the daily carbon problems with the injector and exhaust heat exchanger just make it pointless.
Heating with WMO on the other hand has been a massive success and I feel this is where people should spend there time and money on set up a system.
If you go into the Lister engine gallery with the link posted by someone else previously, you can see my Omni waste oil fired central heating boiler, and also in the conservatory, is a radiant Thermobile WMO heater which I fitted a back boiler to.

Spencer

The large multi cylinder engine you were sent pix of was it a direct injected cup in piston or a precup type?

If new quality parts are used and the blend is kept at 50% WMO to 50% number 2 and it was direct injected my guess is the engine would make it to at least 3000 hours but at the extra cost of the diesel.

I know my 10/1 was running well enough to make it to 2000-2300 but that camshaft failure was the deal breaker.  If the piston would have not had so much wear in the ring lands the set of spare rings would have run even in the badly worn cylinder. But just to much wrong to put it back together without new quality parts. Turns out 10/1 120mm cylinder parts are hard to find quickly.

Air freight is also quite high I am told.

I knew the parts weren't easily available should have had some as backup now that it is some of the coldest weather of the year I get to burn propane until I have time to get the 16/1 dusted off and set up.
It is somewhat different and will need some replumbing and maybe a balance job to get it up.

Billswan

[spencer1885]

The pictures that Billswan has posted show the same wear that I reported to him in a post on the LEF when his engine was displaying the same symptoms as my genuine Lister CS did at 1800 hours on WMO.
I have also spoken to a person on the Lister CSOG forum who was also using large multi cylinder generators on WMO and he also confirmed that they last about 1800 hours before dying a slow death of heavy breathing and eventually not be able to start them.
When he stripped engines down he found them to be worn out and now he just replaces them with another engine.
He did not tell me why he needs so much power and I did not ask but from the pictures he sent me I guessed it was something like corn drying or some other industrial process.
It is probably still viable to use WMO for power generation with a battery back and keep the hours low and then rebuild the engine once a year, but CHP is not going to be viable.
CHP puts too many hours on the engine and the daily carbon problems with the injector and exhaust heat exchanger just make it pointless.
Heating with WMO on the other hand has been a massive success and I feel this is where people should spend there time and money on set up a system.
If you go into the Lister engine gallery with the link posted by someone else previously, you can see my Omni waste oil fired central heating boiler, and also in the conservatory, is a radiant Thermobile WMO heater which I fitted a back boiler to.

Spencer

The large multi cylinder engine you were sent pix of was it a direct injected cup in piston or a precup type?

If new quality parts are used and the blend is kept at 50% WMO to 50% number 2 and it was direct injected my guess is the engine would make it to at least 3000 hours but at the extra cost of the diesel.

I know my 10/1 was running well enough to make it to 2000-2300 but that camshaft failure was the deal breaker.  If the piston would have not had so much wear in the ring lands the set of spare rings would have run even in the badly worn cylinder. But just to much wrong to put it back together without new quality parts. Turns out 10/1 120mm cylinder parts are hard to find quickly.

Air freight is also quite high I am told.

I knew the parts weren't easily available should have had some as backup now that it is some of the coldest weather of the year I get to burn propane until I have time to get the 16/1 dusted off and set up.
It is somewhat different and will need some replumbing and maybe a balance job to get it up.

Billswan

Billswan,
The chap I spoke to had run quite a variety of different engines and he did say that the direct injection engines started much more easily on WMO than idi engines but idi engines smoked less.
When he has white smoking problems he tips diesel in to the inlet which makes the engine make some nasty noise but then he says the engine clears it self and the white smoke clears until the next time it happens.
He said he used a Lister FR4 or 6 I can't remember which but it died at just over 1200 hours and also a Dorman which last longer but also died after lots of breathing and eventually losing it's compression ,both were idi engines.
He is using a large 6 cylinder direct injection engine now and a Perkins which is also DI as well.

[billswan]

Crofter

On cognos wmo treatment thread you mentioned.

"I think Billswan had a camshaft failure which he attributes to possibly be connected with upping the injector crack pressure to enhance atomization."

I decided to drag that comment over to this thread and answer it over here as it will just pollute the wmo thread.

I meant to post more on this but just never had time and now is better than never. I acquired 2 more injectors for the 10/1 then begged a injector tester from a friend. Well as it turns out when you test all 3 injectors they were all set at 120 bar or atmosphere's, 1750 PSI +or-. Well I turned the crack pressure up to 220 bar 3200 psi. Then I remembered my 16/1 direct injected metro so I pulled the injector and tested it and to my surprise it was set at 240 bar or 3500 psi. Now when you look at the fuel pumps on the 2 engines both have the same model 034 mico pump. So I thought if the camshaft in the 16/1 can pump 3500 psi I thought why not go even higher. The camshaft has the same size shaft as the 10/1 so i Figured why not. I then upped the pressure to 260 bars about 3800 psi and proceeded to run the engine there swapping injectors daily or even more often to quicken the down time. When the exhaust got dirty.

Well after about 10 days run time the camshaft gave out in the drive pin hole and so I then checked the cylinder condition and surmised that another camshaft would not make sense as the wear in the sleeve and rings was massive.

Now back to the camshaft. Increasing the load on the injection pump lobe was definitely on my mind when
I did what I did. Now if the proper load is 120 bar and by what I have read on the old original lister iron that may already be set up as I believe the original numbers are lower. If 120 is 100% then 260 is 216% and is a huge load increase and could be what broke the camshaft. But if I am correct and the camshafts are all the same and if a 16/1 has the same shaft as a 6/1 or a 10/1 and the 16/1 is able to run 240 bar and I only set it up to 260 then I have only upped the load by 8% Now if my math is wrong please let me know I sure do make mistakes.





OK OK Someone once wrote that the 16/1 was an Indian hot rod.The camshaft may be to week for those kinds of pressures but my reasoning sounded good to me ........No?....Yes?......maybe?......... well I just had to try it. For now I prefer to just blame inferior weak parts as the problem!

Billswan

[billswan]

Well guys

Second try, lost this whole post and had to retype it as my fingers accidentally touched some button and the bit bucket in the sky ate the whole post 

Here is the last of the autopsy the cylinder head.



The valve seats are receding at warp speed, hard to see in the pix but take my word they are crap.
Anyone experience this with only about 1775 hours or is it that OMEGA quality coming through again?

The valve faces and steams seem fine but the tip where the cap sits must be too soft as both valves have way to much wear at that location. They were oiled the same as the stems.

White ash in the precup and on the exhaust valve but not excessive or super thick.

Billswan

[rcavictim]

That head doesn't look happy. Kinda looks like it has a cocaine habit too. 

Did you find that you had to back off the valve lash adjustments as the valves sunk slowly into the valve seats over time?

[billswan]

That head doesn't look happy. Kinda looks like it has a cocaine habit too. 

Did you find that you had to back off the valve lash adjustments as the valves sunk slowly into the valve seats over time?

Yep, blew a lot of white (spencers ash) out past the snout in the head straight down into the oil.

The valve train mostly needed to be tightened down as far as I can remember. Yes with the valve recession you you would think it might have been the other way but I suppose that all the other points that can wear must have more than kept up.

I reset my valves on the 16/1 yesterday and they both required removing clearance. And it is at about 250 hrs.

Billswan