Catastrophic engine failure

[slowspeed]

Check the crank if you have a shop Bend it back
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Good luck
Jeff

[Randybee1]

........  you might consider a remote oil tank with balance tube to extend the capacity of the crankcase capacity, that would  buy you some piece of mind for longer unattended runs.

bob g

Bob,
What is  a "balance tube"?
Randy B

[JohnF]

Jens;

I think Bob was calling for standard bearings (with upper holes) along with a hollow dipper.....The hollow dipper will force oil up into the bearings to such an extent that it will likely prevent oil dripping through the top holes.  If the dipper breaks, then the top holes will take over.

[mbryner]

JohnF, check your PM's.

Jens, I had no idea that your's was so bad too.   I can't wait months or even several weeks for parts from India.  This engine is the main power supply for our house in winter when the sun's not shining.

I think you might as well face it - you have a complete rebuild on your plate.
Things that you think are re-usable such as the cylinder sleeve might as well be replaced (around $10 from India). I am not sure why you think replacing rings are a PITA but then I took the high road and gave my machine shop the two sets of rings and told them to install them

Already started the rebuild.   Most everything is taken apart already.   I had to stop last night because the wedge to get off the flywheel jib keys was at home in town.   Otherwise the crank would be out by now.   I had such a difficult time getting the rings to fit in the cylinder when I first built it, that's why I say it's a PITA.

If the hollow dipper breaks off, there is no splash at all, and it wouldn't matter what bearings you have, no?

I often wonder, if I were starting over if I would pick a Listeroid again.   Probably yes because of multifuel.   And it's been a lot of fun...

Bob, the oil in the lower sump was a little low (more than half full), but the dipper was still in the pond.   Can it look dry just because everything got cooked?

[Tom Reed]

Marcus, I thought you were building in Cazadero, sorry for the mixup. My roid was the main/only power source for our construction too. Fortunately the only failure was the bearings in the ST5 which were in stock at the local NAPA. Could you give us a forensic analysis of what caused the failure. I like to learn from others instead of learning the hard way.   

[cgwymp]

if you are concerned about a hollow dipper breaking off, then use one with the std oem shells with the upper holes
open.

FWIW, that's the way my DES engine came out of the box. The hollow dipper wasn't a nice machined piece, however, rather just a tube baloney-cut on one end and threaded on the other....

[cgwymp]

if you are concerned about a hollow dipper breaking off, then use one with the std oem shells with the upper holes
open.

the hollow dipper will force many times more oil into the brg than will make its way down into the holes anyway, and if it did break off
the original design would kick in and oil would come through from the top, either way you are covered

Bob, pleas explain how oil will enter the top holes if the hollow dipper breaks off and no oil is being splashed around ....

Good point -- with no dipper, what would splash the oil to the top holes?

[billswan]

Doc

You say "  I can't wait months or even several weeks for parts from India."

Maybe just buy a whole engine I see http://www.diesel-electric.us/ list new 8/1 for 1295$.

Then you can take your time and fix yours up and have it for a spare.

Or put it back into service and save the 8/1 for a spare.

If you are going to have to depend on these engines for your power a complete spare seams like it would make sense. It would also be a source of easy to barrow parts like injector nozzle and pump if the engine that is in service would need such parts.

So did your engine not have an oil pump in it? My 10/1 has a pump that pumps oil onto both TRB's and also a nozzle is pointed at the crank. If the dipper did fail I believe the pump would hopefully keep the oil flying up where the crank should sling it all around.

Good luck Doc

Billswan

[mbryner]

Well, I'm getting an estimate on shipping parts.

It is starting to scare me how my little almost 2 y/o boy (and 3 y/o girl) is enthralled by the Listeroid.  i.e.  Points and says "wool!, wool!, wool!" (wheel, wheel, wheel!) whenever we are in the engine room.   Of course I close the door whenever he is around.   As cool as it is to have big rotating flywheels, and even though I made a cage around them (the flywheels, not the kids) with expanded metal mesh, it is still a worry.  I remember mobile_bob and others love Changfas.   A Changfa 195 can be run on WMO/WVO, correct?  If it it is IDI?   Longitivity?  Easy to work on?  Fuel efficiency?  Reliable electric start?   I'm going to search the forums, but if any of you see any striking pros/cons to switching engine types, please let me know.

[AdeV]

...even though I made a cage around them (the flywheels, not the kids) with expanded metal mesh, it is still a worry. 

Maybe you should make the cage around the kids? It'd be much easier to control them   

Have you considered getting in on this container load of engines that are coming over from the UK? You could get yourself a real deal lister instead of a 'roid - longevity built in, and shipping should be a bunch less than just bringing a single engine over.

Food for thought, perhaps. You could always use one of those chaggggghaggagfag things as a backup (or when the kids are about)...

[Ronmar]

Bummer.  Having read your descriptions, I am trying to decipher this event.  Did the big end bearing have an issue, and chew itself to pieces untill it siezed?  IF so, where did the boilover that you described come from?  From the excessive load the disentegrating bearing would cause?  Having destroyed some engines in my time, I would think that increased load from a bad bearing would rise pretty quickly and not have enough sustained load to cook-off the coolant...  Not knowing how you prepped this engine, did you check the bigend oil clearance and nip before you put it into service?  The pics look like oil starvation did that damage.  You said the dipper was still in oil, was the upper sump full(to the point where the oil runs off the lip into the lower sump) when you opened the case door?  If the oil pump had quit, the upper sump would eventually starve for oil as the little bit slung off onto the front wall ran down into the lower sump instead of into the upper sump like most of the slung oil does.  Without an oil pump, to make up this loss, your dipper would eventually run dry. 

This is pretty much the simplest engine oiling system in the world.  All the dipper has to do is sling oil.  It only needs two things to do this.  Oil to swing thru and enough dipper velocity to sling the oil violently enough to cause it to bounce/splatter around inside the case.  Unfortunatly, the rod is the last thing to get oil, as it must bounce off something else to get there.   I guess another question would be, if the dipper had oil, why didn't it sling it? 

In that regard I have a theory that explains the situation you found.  Lets say your battery charger lost it's mind, and the electrical load on your generator increased beyond the HP available from the engine.  Well first it would start huffing, and make a lot of heat as the governor dumped fuel to get the RPM back up.  An increased sustained load would cause the RPM to droop. Plenty of fuel, plenty of heat, plenty of load, but less RPM, and less splashed lube to find it's way to the big end and feed that rod bearing...  My video experiences filming the inside of the case while running, showed me this.  That oil dosn't really start to fly untill these things hit 500-600 RPM.  The squirted oil from the pump is also a little anemic at lower RPM's.  With what I have seen while making the videos, I would never run one of these lower than that under load without some other form of oiling...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccBrlz-qg5w

Good Luck on your parts and rebuild.

[mobile_bob]

the chanfa/oids come in two varieties, idi and di

the idi will burn any mix of diesel and waste motor oil up to about 75/25 (75% motor oil) and do it well, the di
versions i have heard do well up to about 50/50

i have ran mine on straight 30 weight motor oil, however it is hard starting when cold and smokes a bit for about 30 seconds after
startup, it is an idi engine.

yes they have reliable starters, and yes they have real oil pumps, x/drilled cranks, and other nice design features

yes they are noisy.

veggie developed a low rpm version that might fit your needs well

195's are not perfect, but overall i am impressed with the design and overall quality relative to the indian engine's, however
one might well be served to do some preliminary work as outlined by HWEW relating to removal of the gear cover and replacement of some fasteners of questionable quality on some of the changfoids.

i would think a changfa 195 idi setup to run at around 1000rpm would be a good match for what you need done, they run quieter at
the lower rpm and i figure the lifespan should be very good.

i have heard that some of the diy'ers think of the changfa as being too complex, nothing is further than the truth as i see it.
yes they are a bit more complex than a listeroid,  but it ain't a ferrari either.

you may be well served to get one and use it in tandem with the listeroid, i suspect over time the changfa would be your prime mover of choice and the listeroid would be relegated to backup status.

it is also fair to note, i am biased decidedly against the lister/oid toward the changfa

so ymmv

bob g

[mbryner]

hmmm.  

ronmar, you may have solved this.   I had not seen your video before.  (Still can't: I'm at work and they have youtube blocked.)

Did you know I had been running at only 450 rpm for weeks now?    Maybe it was a combination of a bunch of stuff: running at low rpm's to generate 80 V DC, then a hard stop from momentary electrically locked generator head == not enough oil flung around and then trauma to bearing shells and crank.  The event actually happened when it was running at 650 rpm because the bridge rectifier had died and I had put it back to regular mode, but the damage had probably been done already.

The oil pump is pumping still, so it's not the oil pump.

mobile_bob: I didn't *have* to run slow.  The listeroid had such a lazy governor that it had undervoltage when under load, and the contractors' equipment wouldn't run when there were multiple loads.  That's why I created the low-rpm DC charging system.   If I were to get a Changfa/oid, presumably the output would be better and I'd just run the gen head at 1800 rpm.   Don't see any Changfa/oids for sale, though, and no one can import them legally.   What will their future be here in the states?  Or at least parts?   Fair price for one?   Where to get one?  Just looking at all the options and trying to stay positive!     Could I run a 10-12 hp Changfa at 1000 rpm and size the pulley to turn the ST head at 1800?

[Henry W]

The topic I posted below is veggies work on a slow speed Changfa. Veggie has some great work to slow a Changfa down.

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=477.0

Even though I don't have my S195's anymore I still like them.
Henry

[veggie]

A Changfa 195 can be run on WMO/WVO, correct?  If it it is IDI?   Longitivity?  Easy to work on?  Fuel efficiency?  Reliable electric start?   I'm going to search the forums, but if any of you see any striking pros/cons to switching engine types, please let me know.

CONS:
=====
- Noisy

PROS:
=====
- Compact
- Very durable
- Electric start

If your gen set is in a separate building, then the noise may not be a issue for you.
(Depending on the distance and the insulation of your building)
Therefore you may not have to slow it down and sacrifice power for noise reduction.

- Like the Listeroids, the parts are relatively inexpensive.

I can't comment on long term service with WVO (perhaps others can).
My DI unit runs on WVO/Diesel blend. Not enough hours to warrant removing the head for inspection yet.

veggie