20/2 lubrication and veg oil

[Jens]

I am slowly starting to think about reassembling my 20/2. I have had a nagging thought on my mind which is about to seriously change everything related to Thumper. This may also apply to single cylinder listeroids .....

As we all know, the injector pumps on listeroids are lubricated with a small amount of fuel that bypasses between the steel plunger and the steel pump cylinder. I have come to loath this bypass because if you run straight vegetable oil this bypassed oil will partially polymerize and make a mess of things inside the pump. It is now clear to me that there is a direct connection between engine (injector pump) temperature and gunk accumulation in the pump. This has caused me to decide to remove all the sound insulation around Thumper to lower temperatures (better ventilation would of course also work).
After taking Thumper apart for a rebuilt, I have stumbled onto a much larger issue relate to operation with veg oil. The bypassed fuel from the injector pump(s) is expelled from the bottom of the pump(s) and lands in a little well around the pump lifter shaft. From there it lubricates the shaft, migrates down the shaft, lubricates the roller that runs on the camshaft and then drains into the engine sump.
The issues that I see happening are as follows:

1) the veg oil has partially polymerized and a layer of goo forms around the lifter shaft. This prevents proper lubrication and puts a substantial additional stress on the camshaft after a while. On a twin that effects both pumps.
2) the veg oil that does manage to make it down the lifter shaft can easily stop the lifter roller from rolling causing grinding of hardened surface on hardened surface and causing even more stress on the camshaft. This primarily affects the twin engine far (second) pump as there is no splash lubrication reaching these components.
3) since the veg oil and polymerization products end up in the crankcase, oil will thicken and loose a substantial part of it's lubrication ability.

On a twin, the oil change interval is 500 hrs. I reduced mine to 200 hrs but still had issues with thickening of oil, smoking of oil, weird smell etc etc.

I have come to believe that although overbuilt in a lot of areas, the listeroids and especially the twins are not suitable for operation on 100% vegetable oil for extended periods of operation. I believe that the camshaft on a twin is not inherently doomed to failure but that issues here arise largely due to vegetable oil fuel usage and possibly lack of lubrication for the cam and lifter of fuel pump #2.

I believe that in order to increase reliability, proper lubrication needs to be supplied to the fuel pump lifters, especially #2 on a twin, and vegetable oil needs to be prevented from entering the crankcase. I am not without blame here - I believe the engine maintenance procedures call for manual lubrication of the fuel pump lifter which I have never done since there was always oil (veg in my case) there. I have no suggestions about how to introduce lubricating oil and how to keep spilled veg oil out of harms way.

As things stand, despite Thumper being made 'right' in all the standard ways, I do not believe that she is fit for operation as a cogen plant running on veg oil. As a side note, it would be interesting to see how a listeroid lasts if fuel is WMO ......in theory this should fix a lot of my issues but I am not willing to take the spill risk.

I invite comments from anyone on these thoughts but would especially like to hear from people that have run more than a couple thousand hours. Please indicate fuel being used and how you lubricate the fuel pump lifter shaft.

[sailawayrb]

Hi Jens,

I think these issues apply to 6/1 as well and I seem to recall that they were discussed at great length at the Lister Engine Forum.  If you run veg oil on a full time basis, you need to consider changing engine oil and performing injector maintenance more frequently.

Bob B.

[bschwartz]

At only about 1000 hrs of operation, I don't know if that is enough to mention, but I haven't had issues with the injection pump yet.  Nearly all of my time is on straight WVO.  I do manually lubricate the pump shaft every few days of running with just a few drops of regular motor oil.  I find it mixes with the dribbled WVO and loosens things up.  I also think that if you have enough WVO dripping from your injector pump to seriously contaminate your crankcase oil, you have a severe leak that needs attention.  Veg oil that does make it down the shaft would quickly mix with the engine oil and be so dilute, that I can't imagine it causing polymerization on the roller.  That should also be washed with the splash lubrication.  Peroidic pump cleaning, and frequent injector tip cleaning I can see, but much beyond that, I just don't see the problems you are describing.

[JohnF]

Jens;

I have lots of hours using veggie on 6/1's (longest engine over 24,000) and have not experience the problem you are suggesting.  However, I have run a few twins and on every one the camshaft has snapped at some point - sometimes 25 hours, sometimes 5,000.  Unlike you, I'm not convinced it was due to the veggie as on examination of each break it was found that the hole had been drilled off-centre and the pin driven in with a maul. 

Yours is an interesting though and I'd like to hear more about it.

[Ronmar]

On my 6/1, I currently have 90 hours on the clock, but I put quite a few hours on it in testing before the hour meter was put in.  My notes indicate that I am pretty close to 150 hours, all loaded, and all on #2 diesel.  I just went out and checked the underside of my IP and there is no indication of fuel.  I wiped around the base and pump plunger/top of pushrod with my finger, and it came back smelling like diesel, but with no measurable trace of oil that i could see.  I have never seen any indication of fuel at this location.

The IP lifter is a routine lube point for me same as the tappets and rocker arms. I squirt oil at these locations as well as the far end camshaft bearing(under the access bolt) prior to every startup, enough to completely circle the IP pushrod and tappets, and enough to fill the rocker lube holes and camshaft bearing Lube hole.  At every engine round(every hour or so) while running, I add a few drops of oil to these points except the cam as it has a "reed in wind" rod in the bolt that drips splash lube into the cam bearing lube hole.   

[bschwartz]

Ron.  I find things that may not leak with diesel (or anything else  on the planet) will leak veg oil. 

[bschwartz]

I sure don't think hourly is necessary.  I usually run from 4-8 hours at a time.  I probably squirt a little oil on the plunger once every few starts (days).

[bschwartz]

I think more importantly, I put some oil on the rack as I am more concerned about polymerization there.

[oiler]

My 6/1 now has 2200 hours on the clock running vwo. Oil is changet every 600 hrs give or take.
The rack is binding in both ends, could the reason be  goo from the vegoil?
Perhaps the rack is the evils root reg. the engine overspeeding.

Another question... has anyone tried using a genuine Lister cam in an 'oid? I have benn wondering thet perhaps it would last longer(very likely) and the governor is perhaps of a better quality

[Ian]

Jens, Yes, it is an emotional roller-coaster, isn't it? (Maybe this is the definition of an intensive interest hobby?)

Yes, I see just all about the same issues that you see too. And every time a new issue crops up, I sulk; think about packing it all in, and giving up. And I agree that when you look back and add up the total cost – it is MUCH more than you imagined; if you had known it would cost this much and be this much hassle at the start, then you would never have started....

BUT...... I think I have about £10,000 in all invested in my setup so far (it may sound a lot to you, but if you do a full audit, including the concrete, shuttering, plumbing, electrics, spares, oil changes, exhaust, antifreeze, fittings, shed, insulation, etc, etc, etc – it always adds up to more than seems prudent). And with that amount of money invested, and nowhere near payback yet, it seems, somehow, that I am compelled to continue.

I guess the co-gen project saves me around £1000 per year in electricity and gas (maybe as high as £1500) and I have been running for 3 or 4 seasons now – so I guess I have about 3000 – 4000 hours on the 12/1 JKSon. I burn between 1500 – 2500 litres of WVO each season and I have a stock of about 3000 litres at the moment. It seems prudent to at least burn this stock of WVO before I pack it in.....

It feels as if just about every component (other than the flywheels and the crankcase) has broken or worn out and needed replacing (usually when it is -6 degrees C outside and a real pain to work on a cold engine). However, there are very few components that have been replaced that have subsequently broken (although there have been a few). This is the first summer season where I have not removed the head and / or piston and had major surgery work to do – just the (what I hope will become) normal summer servicing (oil, filters, IP pump clean and injector tip replacement and IP roller tappet change out).

Because of major breakdowns every heating season so far, I have not, yet, got into a set oil change routine but my thinking is that I will do 2 changes a year – Christmas and summer. This gives about 500 hours between changes approximately.

As part of the routine oil change, I swap out the IP for a cleaned one, and replace the IP tappet at the same time. The injector is also swapped out for a cleaned one. I have 3 spare IPs and 3 spare injectors. As I can pretty much guarantee that the IP roller tappet roller will have a massive flat (or succession of flats) on it, I have made up a few tens of new mild steel rollers. It is a simple procedure to drift out the hardened pin, remove and discard the old roller and fit a new roller with the original pin in the tappet.

I guess that I have just had to come to terms with the fact that the roller will need replacing every 500 hours or so. I know it should not need replacing but it does. No-one else seems to have this problem but the easy solution for me is to replace the roller each time – it costs less than £1 and takes maybe 5 minutes.

Owning an Indian engine, I think, means that you have to become philosophical. You have to ask yourself, "what is the worst that can happen?" In my case, I guess that I could knacker the camshaft, or break the casting that holds the IP and camshaft bearing, and maybe a few other things too. BUT, (although the age of really low cost Indian parts has now gone) Indian spares are still moderately cheap and it is likely that replacement parts will cost less than £100 and probably less. So it seems like a no-brainer to fix for the cost of £100 and run the engine for the rest of the season where a seasonal saving of £1000 can be had.

Yes, I have learned a lot about these engines and WVO in the last few years. If I knew then what I know now, I would not have started. But I am where I am and I now know that WVO is a sub-optimal fuel that I would never use if it were not free or at least substantially lower cost than diesel. Even WVO is becoming increasingly harder to obtain and I can see a time in the future (hopefully it will be a time that has allowed me to get the majority of payback on my investments) when I can no longer get enough WVO to justify running the engine every day during the winter season.

My thinking is that I will try to retain 1000 litres of WVO for when the world goes crazy and I NEED the engine for heat and power when the utility cannot provide it. I guess at that point, ANY investment costs to date will have been justified.

Jens, I know that when I am in the mind frame that I think you may be in, it can seem easier to walk away rather than carry on. But when it is all back together again, and working hard, sounding smooth and that smile comes back on your face as you hear those clicks, clacks, pings, and thuds, you forget that there was a time when you thought you might pack it all in and NOW, you just have to stand and watch and listen and KNOW that it is saving you money and giving you a little bit more control than your neighbours have.

I may be wrong but it seems to me that with my engine, once the original part has been replaced, it does not seem to go wrong again unless it wears out. If it consistently goes wrong, you should consider it a wear part and expect to replace it. YOU seem to have worked on all the larger parts now – so if your engine behaves anything like mine, you only have to worry about the wear parts in the future.....

Besides, Jens, I do not want you to pack it all in and sell up. From a totally selfish perspective, I enjoy your postings, your questions and comments. You are one of the few posters that I read every post you make because I like your style and usually it is on the topic of engines (which is my interest) rather than something massively off topic and irrelevant to the forum . The forum needs you; hell, I need your comments and posts to help keep MY enthusiasm for these engines running.

Regards,
Ian

[billswan]

Ian

One question, Was your engine just put to work as received or did you totally disassemble and check the motor for sand and other faults before use??

Billswan

[oiler]

Wow Ian.
You are spot on  

Jens
Don't give up, now your engine is almost ready to fire up again!!!

[JohnF]

I change my oil every 300 hours or so.  Generally, I start the engine up in the morning, add some heavy gear oil to the tappet well and then walk away from it for 12-16 hours until it is time to shut it down.  I don't do any other lubing and haven't had a problem yet.  I have noted, however, that the underside of the IP pump gets a ring of "goo" on it which is very rubbery and pliable - I "think" that is what everyone is referring to?  BUT, I have not seen any real contamination of the sump oil, except for the one or two times that I let oil changes get away from me (probably stretching to around 600 hours) and then found that the sump oil was very thick - I put that down to soot and/or the oil breaking down but I could be wrong on that score.

I suspect others have it right - if there is a significant amount of veggie getting into the sump then there is a bad leak somewhere as I'm just not seeing that.

As to the camshafts, I suspect they are all built by one shop in India and forwarded to the "manufacturers" (really, assemblers)  Any off-centre pin holes cannot be seen because the shafts are supplied with all the cams and gear attached, so defects are hidden.  For the most part on my breakages it has been at the cam gear pin hole, this one appears to be quite suspect.  Additionally, and especially on a twin, measurement has shown that the Indians very rarely get it right in setting the cams correctly on the shaft.  This means that on the worst example the two discrete cylinders are working against each other and it is impossible to get the engine set up right.  This "seems" to increase pressure on the camshaft and if it is prone to breakage then it will fail at some point.  What exacerbates this is the Indian propensity of driving the pins in with a 50 lb maul - it can start small stress risers even before the engine has fired up.

[JohnF]

Jens;

The gear oil goes in the oil well on the valve side at the very top of the engine.  I put enough oil in there to cover up to the first ring on the springs - much more will get sucked down the valve sleeve and possibly cause a runaway engine (don't ask, just don't!) I run mine with the tappet covers off, I like the look of the tappets moving and I can easily see if something is "not quite right"  For the IP slide (actuator?) I use sewing machine oil - very light and quite penetrating.  I generally oil the IP slide every 2 or 3 weeks, it doesn't need much more than that - I suspect over-oiling the IP will result in problems.

[Ian]

Billswan, (at the risk of hijacking the thread – but I think it may be of interest to some) My engine was purchased from Volvox on the basis that it had been totally gone over with all the imperfections smoothed out and the whole thing tuned perfectly. This is supposed to have included a complete strip down for sand clearance and metal surface finishing for exceptionally long life. In return for this "super" engine, I paid double the going rate (around £2000) a few years ago. I guess there is a mug born every minute and I was that mug for that minute.....

When I received the engine, it did not look like an engine that had been lovingly assembled – but what did I know ?

As I inspected the engine and my disappointment grew, I started to become inclined to do a more complete inspect it myself. To be fair, the engine had very little sand except for the roof of the lower oil sump. But I took the view (and still take the view) that sand in the lower sump is not going to find its way out of there and cause a nuisance.

I did find a good number of defects. Volvox said they would make it right but reneged on the deal within days and became un-contactable.

I cannot remember all the things I found wrong now but some of the things were :
Cracked cylinder head nut
30 thou play in the idler gear to pinion interface
Valve timing 1 tooth out
COV blanking plug butchered by the use of an incorrect tool
A degree of scoring on the top bronze shell of the big end bearing – but not enough to warrant replacement there and then
Blocked cross drill hole in the crankshaft (with general sticky crap)
Very sloppy valve guide to valve stem fit

Over the last 3 or 4 years, I have:
Replaced the rocker assembly as the exhaust rocker had completely worn through its bronze bush and into the casting itself.
Initially shimmed the idler pin with home made shim washers to take up the slack – but later replaced with a Xyzer offset idler pin (35 thou)
A total of 3 big end bearing sets including a crank throw regrind.
2 sets of TRBs – I still cannot fathom out what went wrong with these – the replacements have been SKF bearings.
Replaced the valve guides
Replaced the cylinder head due to exhaust gasses getting into the coolant; have never found the crack despite looking very hard.
Added a thermostat
Added a glow plug
Added an external oil filter
Replaced the camshaft and both camshaft bearings
Replaced at least 2 high pressure fuel lines when they sprang a leak
Added a hollow dipper to the big end
Added a manual oil pump operating lever
And I guess a few more things I cannot remember now!

Jens, I forgot to add in the previous post – I lubricate the engine once a week (70 – 90 hours) and this includes greasing the rocker shaft (high pressure grease gun through a nipple I added) and adding oil to the valve spring wells.

I never lubricate the IP tappet (it is usually covered in WVO in some form between liquid and thick rubber).

My JKSon 12/1 does not have the original Lister oil filler hole on the top of the lower sump. I fill the entire sump void with semi or fully synthetic oil right up to the point that the castellated big end nuts just touch the surface of the oil. This is about 5 litres in total. The dip stick has been re-marked for this level. Once a week I check the oil level on the dipstick and if required top up down the dipstick hole. However, over 300 – 500 hours the level hardly changes and generally topping up is not required.

Maybe WVO is getting into the sump oil and maybe it is the WVO making the oil thick – I do not know. I change the oil at 500 hours (if major breakdowns allow) or when the oil continues to cling to the dipstick above its level in the sump. The oil seems to be a pretty good lubricant when rubbed between the finger and thumb even when it is thick and gooey. I believe WVO has good lubricity and when the CS was designed castor oil was the lubricant of choice so it may not be such a bad thing.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Ian