I have managed to get hold of a couple of IDI S1100 engines that are able to take a glow-plug.
Unfortunately they come without a glow-plug, and in its place is a blanking bolt.
I am now looking for a source of glow-plugs that will replace the bolt, but I'm having no luck finding one.
I have contacted my original engine supplier, and many other suppliers that I have used in the past, but it seems nobody in China (or anywhere else for that matter) can provide the correct type of glow-plug.
I will be resorting to machining the current two heads and fitting an insert, but that isn't a cost effective solution if I want to sell lots of these, which I do.
I've attached a photo of the blanking plug. The thread is much more course than currently used on modern day glow-plugs. I'd guess it's a 1/2"BSP, but I need to check it properly.
I would be extremely grateful if anyone could help me source an appropriate glow-plug.
Thanks,
Mark
i too have looked for a glowplug for the 195, which is the same needed for the 1100
my solution to the problem is to use what you call the blanking bolt (which is made to hold a wick)
and chuck it up in a lathe, drill and tap it for a pencil style glowplug like the ones used in fords 6.9 and early 7.3 diesel
engines.
i assume the ford injector has a thread pitch i can find a tap to match? but haven't checked on that yet.
bob g
Bob,
You're a wealth of knowledge.
I'd assumed that I wouldn't be able to get a modern day glow-plug thin enough to put down the middle of the blanking bolt, but perhaps I'm wrong.
A 'wick'!!!!! Of course!! ::)
I've been trying for ages to work-out why the bolt has a hollow end. Of course, it's for a wick. Thank you Bob.
Any idea what the wick is made of and what they look like?
Mark
Try to find a glow plug of small enough size to be accommodated within the dimensions of the bolt. Also try to find one that will work on full 12 v without the need of a special voltage reducing drive circuit. What I used is a 2001 VW tdi engine plug. I believe it is 10 X 1.25 standard metric. sealing is done against a tapered shoulder below the thread so it is a bit of a challenge to turn out an adapter, but as Bob says, doable. A glow plug makes night and day difference in starting a diesel engine especially one that has only about 16 to one compression ratio.
I have used the screw in starting aids that looked like having a roll of cotton rag projecting that was dipped in something like the old strike anywhere matches. Likely supposed to compression ignite at a lower temp than diesel fuel and continue glowing for a few revolutions. In my case that old compactor refused to give anything more than puffs of smoke!
Frank,
You raise a good point about voltage.
Most glow-plugs available today are used in sets of 4 (or more) where the 12v dc supply drops due to the load of the glow-plugs.
This is confirmed by most glow-plugs which actually state 11v.
When a single glow-plug is used with a 12v battery, the voltages doesn't drop as much as it does when 4 plugs are used, which means the one glow-plug gets more volts than it is designed to take - I've burned quite a few glow-plug doing this.
Unfortunately, I haven't managed to find any glow-plugs that are designed to work in isolation, but I do believe that some manufacturers design their plugs to cope with over-voltage. Can't remember which manufacturer though.
Mark
have the glow plug energize with the starter, that way as the engine cranks the glowplug gets hot
and the voltage is dropped because of starter draw.
bob g
another alternative use pwm off the engine management controller to regulate the effective voltage
seen by the glowplug
bob g
Have you guys checked the chinese tractor dealers? My tractor uses a 395 engine. I would not be surprised to find it has parts in common with your 195 engines... I am at work now, but i will try and post a dealer link later to a guy that has online photos of most all the parts. I could also pretty easilly pull one of my glow plugs to measure it if you like.
Ron,
I believe the 295, 395 and 495 engines have fuel-burning pre-heaters in the air intake.
This is another alternative, but these devices require a lift pump which the single cylinder engines don't have.
Mark
I am not having a problem feeding a singe glow plug from a fully charged 12 V battery but if you had an alternator upping the ante and you didnt have provision to disconnect immediately, the charging voltage near 15 volts could do them in.
All plugs are not the same and for sure there are some that turn into photo flash bulbs (anyone here old enough to remember them) if they get direct voltage. I am just suggesting that if you are going to make an adaptor, have it suit an easily acquired, convenient voltage plug. Only modify the engine iteself as a last resort. I have an old David Brown tractor engine I would dearly love to have glowplugged in the cylinders instead of a token manifold heater, but I dont want to mess with it. Its Limey origins sure make it despondent in our northern Canada winter weather, lol!
Quote from: jmw on March 26, 2010, 10:25:33 AM
Ron,
I believe the 295, 395 and 495 engines have fuel-burning pre-heaters in the air intake.
This is another alternative, but these devices require a lift pump which the single cylinder engines don't have.
Mark
No fuel burning preheater on mine. The 395 on my tractor has an electric glowlug screwed down into each IDI chamber. They pull about 10A each and are tied together in parallel with a bussbar for a 30A initial draw. This 30A tapers off to about 22-25A after 20 seconds of preheat. The key is setup as follows. Off,on, preheat then start, preheat and start are springloaded back to on. The key is wired such that the glowplugs remain energized when the key is turned to start. I will pull one this afternoon and get the dimemsions and thread pitch.
Any idea what the wick is made of and what they look like?
I think Hatz may have them listed in various sizes. Light and smoulder, like the Field Marshall tractors. One problem sometimes occurs when the wick is not completely burned and lodges under a valve and just sits there reducing compresion to zero.
Made of paper or fibre soaked in a suitable accelerant like sodium nitrate, I would think.
Regards, RAB
OK, Pulled a glowplug out of my tractor head. On mine, it is screwed in alongside/parallel to the injector. Here is a link to a photo. The background graph paper has 1/4" squares. The thread outside diameter is .394" measured with a dial calliper. The threads are approximately .040". I would call that about a 10MM X 1.0 MM thread pitch. These are about $25 from a chinese tractor dealer, Unfortunatly it dosn't look like the same configuration as the plug you pictured...
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj85/rmarlett/th_395glowplug.jpg) (http://s270.photobucket.com/albums/jj85/rmarlett/?action=view¤t=395glowplug.jpg)
Quote from: mobile_bob on March 26, 2010, 08:15:51 AM
my solution to the problem is to use what you call the blanking bolt (which is made to hold a wick)
and chuck it up in a lathe, drill and tap it for a pencil style glowplug like the ones used in fords 6.9 and early 7.3 diesel
engines.
Not to run this thread astray but is the hole in the plug that replaces the changeover on a 6/1 for a wick? I always wondered what that was for.
I've now measured the size and thread pitch of the blanking bolt.
It is a M12 x 1.75 (or possibly a 7/16 - 20 UNF).
I've spent quite a few hours searching glow-plug suppliers' websites for a glow-plug which matches this thread.
My conclusion so far is:- no such glow-plug exists.
Also, the smallest (diameter) glow-plug I have found so far is an M10. So it won't be possible to drill out the blanking bolt to use a narrow glow-plug in it. ???
Mark
Mark, I wonder how much wall thickness there is on the threaded section of the glow plugs. It would be a bit of a chore but you might be able to turn down and rethread to a size small enough to go into the drilled out stop bolt. I will have a look at one of my spares to see if I can guess how much meat there might be there.
Mark
You could have it helicoiled to 12mm x 1.25 and use one of the many available standard glowplugs.
Mick
I believe there might still be a problem with a sealing shoulder for the glow plug if you went the Heli-coil route. the body of my 10M X 1.25 plug is 8mm below the raised 10 mm threaded area. This 8mm portion has the sealing seat shoulder on it.
Quote from: XYZER on March 26, 2010, 06:22:31 PM
Quote from: mobile_bob on March 26, 2010, 08:15:51 AM
my solution to the problem is to use what you call the blanking bolt (which is made to hold a wick)
and chuck it up in a lathe, drill and tap it for a pencil style glowplug like the ones used in fords 6.9 and early 7.3 diesel
engines.
Not to run this thread astray but is the hole in the plug that replaces the changeover on a 6/1 for a wick? I always wondered what that was for.
No, the plug is just to fill the hole left when they decided to stop using the change over valve & to reduce the compression ratio to the desired level.
Scott R.
If the glow plug cannot be resolved why not put on a heating element on the intake manifold. If you can heat the air up enough it should fire up.
Henry
Quote from: lowspeedlife on March 27, 2010, 04:56:05 PM
Quote from: XYZER on March 26, 2010, 06:22:31 PM
Quote from: mobile_bob on March 26, 2010, 08:15:51 AM
my solution to the problem is to use what you call the blanking bolt (which is made to hold a wick)
and chuck it up in a lathe, drill and tap it for a pencil style glowplug like the ones used in fords 6.9 and early 7.3 diesel
engines.
Not to run this thread astray but is the hole in the plug that replaces the changeover on a 6/1 for a wick? I always wondered what that was for.
No, the plug is just to fill the hole left when they decided to stop using the change over valve & to reduce the compression ratio to the desired level.
Scott R.
I know that Scott....but the plug has a small hole drilled in the center for an unknown reason.......I thought maybe for a wick....maybe not....
Dave
My dodge/cummins has the heated grid in the intake, works quite well. The old Deere pictured in my avatar routes the exhaust from the pony motor through the intake manifold!
Ron
Quote from: XYZER on March 28, 2010, 12:37:26 AM
Quote from: lowspeedlife on March 27, 2010, 04:56:05 PM
Quote from: XYZER on March 26, 2010, 06:22:31 PM
Quote from: mobile_bob on March 26, 2010, 08:15:51 AM
my solution to the problem is to use what you call the blanking bolt (which is made to hold a wick)
and chuck it up in a lathe, drill and tap it for a pencil style glowplug like the ones used in fords 6.9 and early 7.3 diesel
engines.
Not to run this thread astray but is the hole in the plug that replaces the changeover on a 6/1 for a wick? I always wondered what that was for.
No, the plug is just to fill the hole left when they decided to stop using the change over valve & to reduce the compression ratio to the desired level.
Scott R.
I know that Scott....but the plug has a small hole drilled in the center for an unknown reason.......I thought maybe for a wick....maybe not....
Dave
Really? mine don't have a hole drilled in them, Maybe it's for live center to index on in the lathe?
Scott R
Quote from: Crofter on March 27, 2010, 09:44:49 AM
I believe there might still be a problem with a sealing shoulder for the glow plug if you went the Heli-coil route. the body of my 10M X 1.25 plug is 8mm below the raised 10 mm threaded area. This 8mm portion has the sealing seat shoulder on it.
I am coming to the conclusion that the helicoil route is potentially the best solution for fitting a glow-plug to my S1100s.
The original thread is much longer than most M12 x 1.25 glow-plug threads so I should be able to leave quite a distance between thread and sealing face.
However, I have no experience of the helicoil product, even though I do understand how it works.
Does anyone on this forum have experience of using helicoil tread inserts? Do I need to drill-out the original thread before I put the helicoil tap in?
I think the long-term solution for having a glow-plug in S1100/S195 engines is to either:- have some specially made, or use a heater/burning in the air-intake.
Thanks for all your help and views guys.
Mark
the helicoil kit come with a tap, installation tool and about a half dozen helicoils
the tap will have the needed drill size etched upon it.
you almost always need to drill to proper size first
be sure your casting is thick enough for this operation
bob g
yes, you very likely have to drill first. You need to do some measurements of the OD. of the heilcoil to see where it comes in relation to the existing threads. Going in hit and miss on the old threads, if that happens to be the case is not so good. Better if old threads need to disappear entirely. You will have to have the glow plug you are going to install before you start drilling away to determine how far into the combustion area the tip must project. Note that they do not seal on the threads! You will have to provide for a sealing shoulder that is dictated by the glow plug design. As Bob suggests, make sure you dont strike water or you will have a tricky sealing job indeed.
With a chance of somthing going wrong with the machineing, heilocoil and sealing of the glow plug I would personaly go with a heated grid in the intake. It would be the safest and easiest way I would think.
Henry
The last time I looked, you could get them off of epay.
A nice bolt-on solution, IHMO...
Daryl
All considered, I believe I would try the intake heater first, at the very least. There would be less irreversible changes made anyway.
there is not a lot to the darn things, as you can see, the pic is of one off a Cummins 5.9.
Ron
Here are a couple intake heaters that are on ebay.
There are more.
Henry
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GENUINE-ONAN-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-HEATER-154-0712_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem518cda7900QQitemZ350255479040QQptZMotorsQ5fRVQ5fTrailerQ5fCamperQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
http://cgi.ebay.com/Manifold-Intake-Heater-for-Massey-Ferguson-Tractors_W0QQitemZ370353514715QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item563aca28db
Quote from: vdubnut62 on March 29, 2010, 05:39:28 PM
All considered, I believe I would try the intake heater first, at the very least. There would be less irreversible changes made anyway.
there is not a lot to the darn things, as you can see, the pic is of one off a Cummins 5.9.
Ron
That would work real good on a Changfa type engine.
Henry
Henry:
the first one you listed from ebay, is just like the one cummins used to use years ago on their 855cu/in engines, they
used a hand pumped fuel pump to squirt fuel into the intake over the heater making like a flame thrower down the intake
worked very well.
for a changfa it just looks pretty easy just to drill and tap the oem plug and fit it with a 6.9 pencil unit, and control it with a
micro controller prior to startup or energize it while the engine is cranking
the pencil tip is down near the injector spray anyway, and i believe that is how the thing works to provide ignition
the 6.9 pencil units are less than 7 or 8 bucks each if you shop them out.
thats the way i am going to go, but i will be activating and controlling them with pulses from the controller prior to startup
its just too easy to do otherwise.
i am not big on the idea of an intake heater in a single cylinder engine that has some rather harsh vibrations and intake pulses
for fear of eventual breakage of the heater tip and having bits and pieces ingested into the engine.
ymmv guys
bob g
Bob,
You know you might be on somthing. there has to be thin pencil tiype glow plugs. If there is enough meat on the oem plug and it can be chucked in a lathe and bored and tapped that would be the way to go.
Henry
I wonder if Mityvac has a glow Plug adaptor that will fit. What I was thinking is they might know someone that can make a adaptor.
Just a thought.
Henry
http://www.mityvac.com/pages/products_ede-da.asp
Quote from: hwew on March 29, 2010, 05:40:26 PM
Here are a couple intake heaters that are on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Manifold-Intake-Heater-for-Massey-Ferguson-Tractors_W0QQitemZ370353514715QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item563aca28db
This is the same unit used on the old Perkins. Just hook a 1 gal. day tank, gravity fed, and a fuel hose to the heater. Then wire it to a momentary switch and fuse 20 amps. Hold the switch down, as it heats up, the thermocouple opens and lets the heated fuel drip into the intake. Varooommm.....she's off and running...Ive started, at 10 degrees F, about the same cranking time as 60 degrees...no heat. mine have been installed since 1964, absolutely never leak down, when not energized. It's a most simple solution, and effective.
Lloyd
Lloyd
Quote from: Lloyd on March 29, 2010, 09:38:48 PM
Quote from: hwew on March 29, 2010, 05:40:26 PM
Here are a couple intake heaters that are on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Manifold-Intake-Heater-for-Massey-Ferguson-Tractors_W0QQitemZ370353514715QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item563aca28db
This is the same unit used on the old Perkins. Just hook a 1 gal. day tank, gravity fed, and a fuel hose to the heater. Then wire it to a momentary switch and fuse 20 amps. Hold the switch down, as it heats up, the thermocouple opens and lets the heated fuel drip into the intake. Varooommm.....she's off and running...Ive started, at 10 degrees F, about the same cranking time as 60 degrees...no heat. mine have been installed since 1964, absolutely never leak down, when not energized. It's a most simple solution, and effective.
Lloyd
Lloyd
Now that is cool. I did not know it had a fitting to hook up a fuel line when I posted it. Now thinking about it I remember seeing somthing like this on a jeep CJ-5 with a perkins diesel back in 1986. It was cold out the person pushed a momentary switch for a while we heard a poof sound and he cranked it over and it was running. I wonder if it is the same thing.
Henry
Quote from: Jens on March 29, 2010, 10:30:58 PM
Does it use gasoline or diesel ? Does the fuel line in the unit on Ebay hook to the 3/8" thread at the back ?
Would you be cranking the engine and then activate this unit or would you first activate this unit and then crank the engine after a bit of delay? How long does it take for this thing to light off ?
Hi Jens,
Yes the fuel line hooks to the 3/8 thread. Hold the momentary switch prior to cranking, it takes about 15 sec to heat the thermocouple to open and let the fuel flow, then continue to hold for another 20-30 sec. depending on how cold, and how well the engine normally fires, while continuing to hold, start cranking, a couple of hits and misses and she's running.
I wouldn't use anything but oil, a gas engines would be a true danger in my opinion.
Quote from: hwew on March 29, 2010, 05:40:26 PM
Here are a couple intake heaters that are on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Manifold-Intake-Heater-for-Massey-Ferguson-Tractors_W0QQitemZ370353514715QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item563aca28db
Now that is cool. I did not know it had a fitting to hook up a fuel line when I posted it. Now thinking about it I remember seeing somthing like this on a jeep CJ-5 with a perkins diesel back in 1986. It was cold out the person pushed a momentary switch for a while we heard a poof sound and he cranked it over and it was running. I wonder if it is the same thing.
Henry
[/quote]
Henry it is the same thing, Perkins didn't start using glow plugs until the tier emissions came on scene. On marine units they have a key switch, that has a position to the left that is used to energize the thermocouple...you turn the key left for 30-120 sec. temp depending, then turn the key right to cranking. I've found that they start much easier, and faster if you continue the thermocouple while cranking. It just means a 2 handed start...like many gensets...that use glowplugs.
Lloyd
I've managed to find a Chinese manufacturer who will make some glow-plugs specifically for the S1100/S195 engines. Unfortunately their minimum order quantity is 1000, which means that it is not a viable solution for me. I haven't got a quote from them yet, but even if it is $5 per plug I would never recoup the investment - IDIs are not as popular as DIs these days, for obvious reasons.
I contacted the local Helicoil specialist and they recommend that I use a hand reamer rather than a drill. I've ordered the necessary tools, so will let you know how I get on.
Mark