So I'm trying to get my hydro setup all planned out and have some choices. There are two potential sites:
1. Spring - A spring starts on our property and flows downhill a total of about 400ft elevation over 2200ft and empties in site 2. Flow is 30gpm at the end of summer and 130gpm now in winter. Most convenient location for the turbine ( Pelton ) would be 600ft from the top of the spring so 600ft of 2-3" pipe for the penstock, and then it is 800ft to run wire to the batteries.
2. Creek - Bloody Run Creek runs through a corner of our property and is big, maybe 1000gpm or more. There is a 25ft waterfall so we could get probably 40ft of head with a 60ft penstock. The low head indicates this might not a be a good match for a pelton or turgo but there does not seem to be an affordable off the shelf crossflow/Banki-Mitchell setup that I could find on the web. The site is also 2500ft from the batteries and it not easily accessible, no vehicles etc it's very steep.
So do I go for the higher power capacity site further from the house that has a nice short penstock but a really long wire run or choose the easier smaller closer site with less capacity?
the pic of the waterfall is from a few years ago in summer and that's not me in the pic. Spring creek pictures are from Sunday.
My thoughts:
Spring water will have less rocks and twigs in it, but flow may fade before winter rains start.
A lot of 2" or 3" pipe to lay
Creek - do you think you have actual rights to dam and divert (even if only 5') into your penstock? A whole lot of expensive copper or aluminum wire - i think I'd go with the pipe at the spring
There is a little pool above the waterfall I thought I could put the intake there and just run the pipe along the hillside down to a good spot for a turbine, it's all on my property but I suppose the County or Tahoe National Forest may have something to say about it if they knew, but it's not visible or accessible so?
I need to go down to the waterfall and really check the site out again, I haven't been down there in quite a while.
do you have a need for more power?
if you truely have a need for the extra power available from the more difficult site, then that
is the site i would do my damn well best to harvest.
sure there are issues of distance, but what is the return on investment?
it might be the extra money spent to tap the better resource will turn out to be the best investment
over time, and that time may not be very long at all.
there is an old saying amongst mechanics, when you set out to buy a toolbox, buy the biggest one you can
afford, otherwise you will spend three times as much and end up with the bigger box in the end anyway.
that assumes one is going to be a mechanic on cars, trucks or the like and not a watch repairman :)
it really comes down to what your needs are, and whether you can use the extra power of the larger site.
bob g
Beautiful place, Jedon! Looks sort of like our creek, but the paved BLM road is next to ours, so it's hard to bootleg anything along it. Either site you pick is a gold mine of power.
Personally, I would pick the spring. Question: you mention you have 400 ft head over 2200 ft distance, but then you say you are thinking about running about 600 ft. What is the vertical head over that 600 ft? If you use whole 400 ft drop at 30 gpm, that's 400 x 30 / 10 = 1200 watts (assuming average efficiency). Even with a battery bank and diverting load (i.e. hot water tank), that's a lot of power for a single family home. A larger battery bank and 2nd inverter/more inverters is almost definitely cheaper than oversizing a hydro system, even if you do have huge loads occasionally. If you use high-voltage transmission from turbine to house/system, 800 ft could be dealt with small wire, which is cheaper and easier than water pipe.
Does the spring flow at all toward your housesite? And is it uphill from the house? If so, and if the water was collected at the spring source, you could even divert water from the end of the penstock for domestic water use. Hey, no well pumping!
Dealing with high flow is more difficult than dealing with high pressure. And have you priced really large diameter PVC lately? So the creek site is less desirable, I would think.
If you really need more power, then do what Bob G said. Just my 2 cents...
Marcus
P.S. And I totally agree with mike90045. Filtering the intake at a spring would be tremendously easier, and you could be in a lot of hot water if whoever found a wier/dam/diversion on the creek.
QuoteQuestion: you mention you have 400 ft head over 2200 ft distance, but then you say you are thinking about running about 600 ft. What is the vertical head over that 600 ft?
100ft
QuoteDoes the spring flow at all toward your housesite?
No it all flows away from the house, downhill unfortunately.
QuoteDealing with high flow is more difficult than dealing with high pressure.
That is indeed true and my search for affordable cross flow Mitchell/banki turbines was unsuccessful. I need to get enough head to use a pelton.
QuoteAnd have you priced really large diameter PVC lately? So the creek site is less desirable, I would think.
I would wager that 60ft of large diameter PVC would be much cheaper than 600ft of 2"!
Quotedo you have a need for more power?
I would love to have more power and would find things to do with it, and it would make the wife happy.
Right now I'm the most concerned with getting something in, even if it's small, even a 100-200W would really help.
My plan is to start with the spring, first make a small dam and a weir into a PVC pipe with a shutoff, then start running pipe downhill and measuring PSI and flow until I have a decent amount of head for the distance involved. Then I'll buy the turbine and some appropriate wire and run it up to the power shed.
60 ft of pvc is pretty cheap, use the largest you can get, 4 to 6 inch at least. also use electrical conduit, it's a little more expensive but it's uv light resistant, normal plumbing pvc is not. with out the uv resistance it will become brittle & break, a 60 ft column of water 6'' in diameter has fair bit of weight i'd imagine.
Scott
Well I made some more progress, I cut a path down to the spring and damned it up a bit and put in a 3" pipe. I'm getting 24GPM out of the pipe which still leaves enough water for the creek. Now I need a bunch more pipe and a pelton wheel / generator or alternator.
This looks interesting:
http://cgi.ebay.com/TRUE-PELTON-HYDRO-GENERATOR-1200w-PMA-KIT-ALL-NEW-/180528898067?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a085c6013#ht_500wt_928
or
http://cgi.ebay.com/PELTON-TRUBINE-GENERATOR-2400w-PMAs-ALL-NEW-/310231277155?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483b399e63#ht_500wt_928
Any comments about those setups? About half the price of a Harris setup.
I'm torn between dropping in a pre-made unit and scrounging one together.
with increasing water pressure at the lower end of the pipe, you may need schedule 80 for the lowest sections. I don't know if there is any heavy duty gray/electrical conduit.
One good thing is that the pipe will not get much sun, the whole creek is under the forest canopy in deep shade ( as proven by the number of mosquito's! )
I'm going to try and run the pipe along the hillside parallel to the creek and then have most of the drop happen all at once at the end, should help with friction losses?
Are you using the same diameter pipe all the way? I am not sure it is a good idea to do a quick drop at the lower end. It is only atmospheric pressure that is charging the pipe at feed end and it is possible to create vacumn cavitation if you get turbine freewheel condition. The resulting chugging with plus and minus pressures will play hell with your pipe anchoring and create pressure spikes. Usually there is a sharp reduction in size just before the turbine to make sure there is no cavitation in the pipe above, but I am only talking of relatively large bore you could walk through.
I have worked on lots of penstock installations from 4 ft diameter to over ten ft, all welded steel pipe, and was amazed at some of the elaborate transitions, anchors, vacumn breakers etc. but admittedly had nothing to do with the design theory. I dont know if there is basic info you could get your hands on, but it might save you wasted work and material.
I hadn't decided if I needed different sized of pipes or not, I've even considered starting out with it only going half way down to get 50ft of head or so just to get it started. I was hoping to find some used or cheap piping, that would help determine what size to use. Is there a downside to using larger pipe besides cost? I'd like to keep it really simple so perhaps I should just run the pipe downhill parallel to the creek.
water pressure is determined by the height difference from the entrance to the outlet and flow is determined by what size pipe it is and other restrictions... 2.31' of water equals 1psi... so for 50 ft of head (elevation difference, not length of pipe) u will have 21.6psi...
Yes I realize I'll have less head and thus less pressure but I'll also be running half the amount of pipe and wire... I do want later to get more and more head, I have a total of almost 300ft of head I could get if I was willing to run enough pipe and wire but more than 600ft and I might as well go for the bigger creek.
If you use a constant pipe diameter the velocity will be constant the whole length. Friction losses increase with velocity and length so the dynamic usefull pressure at the turbine will be less than the static head pressure calculations so you must size your pipe to get the necessary flow, not from bottom head pressure but from something less than atmospheric pressure. In other words it is easier to get your flow at the top with larger diameter pipe and it need not be rated for as high a pressure. Less chance too for the possibility of line pressure drop creating a vacuum. Plugging of the intake with junk or beavers has damaged systems. Make sure you incorporate a vent that cannot be plugged.
When the mines were operating here you used to be able to pick up thin wall steel pipe and victaulic clamps for scrap prices. All kinds of fittings and reducers are universal. If you could find something like that used it might be cheaper than anything you could get new in adequate sized plastic.
What pipe size are you contemplating?
I'm sure there used to be pipes as well as many pelton wheels up here a hundred years ago, this area was a mining mekka. I'll check the closest junk yard, maybe they have stuff like that. I was thinking 3" would be about the right size?
Yes around 3" seems like reasonable. Probably about sch 20 and gets used for air lines. Good for over 100 psi and burst strenght higher. Not thick enough for any amount of corrosion allowance but good to prove the concept. If you cannot get the fittings or if the grooves are damaged a half handy welder can join lengths up pretty quick. If the ground is not too irregular, multiple lengths can be joined and snaked in with a skidder or tractor if you dont have to satisfy any quality inspector but yourself.
Way too steep and rugged for machinery and I only have a big ol 2wd tractor anyhow so this will all be done by hand although I can bring pipe down in my 6x6.
http://stockton.craigslist.org/for/1828718912.html
Would irrigation pipe work?
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/grd/1820751260.html
Yep, that is the kind of stuff! I hadnt thought of the aluminum as it does not lend itself to field welding but if the grooves are there you are in business and can switch to steel for any pieces you have to special fab.
Well my Harris Hydro setup came today, 4" pelton wheel with a 120V DC variable field strength PM generator.
My brother and I ran 400' of 3" PVC and I made a small dam and intake.
I bought two 500ft rolls of 10g THHN from HD and will use some old well pump wire for the remaining 150ft.
I'll be putting the wire in 1.5" PVC
I thought I should get around 40psi but got 19psi so that is disappointing but we'll see how it works out, still 100-500W expected.
Quote from: Jedon on November 05, 2010, 12:34:04 PM
Well my Harris Hydro setup came today, 4" pelton wheel with a 120V DC variable field strength PM generator.
My brother and I ran 400' of 3" PVC and I made a small dam and intake.
I bought two 500ft rolls of 10g THHN from HD and will use some old well pump wire for the remaining 150ft.
I'll be putting the wire in 1.5" PVC
I thought I should get around 40psi but got 19psi so that is disappointing but we'll see how it works out, still 100-500W expected.
Jedon,
How in the world does one vary the field strength of a permanent magnet generator?
R
Roger, there should be a way to adjust/set the air gap (the distance between the alternator rotor and the stator). The gap is typically set to maximize power at the operational RPM. There is also a minimum gap distance that you should never exceed to avoid having the rotor contact the stator as the bearings wear.
Jedon, I assume the 19 psi is the dynamic pressure (i.e., the pressure measurement with water flowing thru pipe) where the Harris is located. What was the static pressure (i.e., pressure without water flowing)? The static pressure should be 0.433 psi times the vertical distance between Harris and intake.
http://www.nooutage.com/hydroele.htm#How%20much%20power
Quote from: sailawayrb on November 06, 2010, 10:06:06 AM
Roger, there should be a way to adjust/set the air gap (the distance between the alternator rotor and the stator). The gap is typically set to maximize power at the operational RPM. There is also a minimum gap distance that you should never exceed to avoid having the rotor contact the stator as the bearings wear.
snip...
I see how this can be done in an axial flux alternator, but for the life of me I cannot see how this can be done in a standard "squirrel cage/motor" type alternator. Unless the rotor is able to shrink and expand, or move the magnets closer and farther away from the stator.
R
Quote from: RogerAS on November 06, 2010, 07:18:14 PM
I see how this can be done in an axial flux alternator, but for the life of me I cannot see how this can be done in a standard "squirrel cage/motor" type alternator. Unless the rotor is able to shrink and expand, or move the magnets closer and farther away from the stator.
R
Right, this is definitely NOT a "squirrel cage/motor" radial flux design. This is indeed an axial flux design. The rotor is a disk (containing 16 PMs) that rotates an adjustable air gap distance above the stator. The stator is a thicker, stationary disk that fully encapsulates 12 electrical windings in epoxy. Here's all the details:
http://www.microhydropower.com/Articles/WaterRites.pdf
http://www.microhydropower.com/How%20it%20Works.htm
http://www.microhydropower.com/Manuals/LH1000%20Manual12-08nrec.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4teOp0YYmwY
Since hydro is 24/7/365 and done in a challenging environment, low maintenance and high reliability take design priority. On these commercial units, you typically have to replace the bearings about every 10,000 hours. 12/24/48/120/240 VDC are the common outputs.
I designed a DIY version that uses a standard motor boat prop and more robust, off-the-shelf bearings. I also designed a DIY cross-flow "Banki" turbine that I am considering as well. The PM alternator design is the same for both and will use off-the-shelf NdFeB PMs of the type one can easily obtain from Forcefield and be of the two rotor (12 PMs per rotor) and one stator (9 ironless windings) topology.
I chose/plan to use my low head, high flow creek to produce about 1200 watts at 120 VDC. Excess power (i.e., the power not used for the normal house electrical loads) will be used to minimize propane usage, which is required for the stove/dryer to keep wife happy, and also used for domestic hot water and hyrdonic floor heating (which will be our automatic heating mode when we are away and which will backup/supplement our passive solar house design and masonry heater). OR charges about $1000 for the initial hydro power approval permit (which is good for 20 years and is renewable) and than $15/year. So I consider this a micro hydro, passive solar, RE cogen solution :)
According to the manual it's done with an extended drill chuck and an allen wrench :-)
I spun the wheel up but then a PVC/ABS 3" to 2" adapter popped off, I was going to replace it with a PVC one anyway but the glue for gluing PVC to ABS is not very good apparently.
Oh well, next week when the rain stops I'll give it another go.
I got it working! The Tristar TS-60 PWM charge controller limited the input voltage to the output voltage ie the batter bank voltage which was half the designed voltage of the hydro unit and so didn't work. I replaced that with an IOTA AC 13A 48V ( 54V ) battery charger and got the pelton wheel spinning up good with all the water currently available so it was making 208V DC. The IOTA can accept DC ( although it doesn't say so ) and when loaded it dropped the voltage to 114V then eventually to 107V but it works, I'm not sure how many amps since I don't have a DC ammeter on hand ( yet ). I put a 20A AC breaker between the hydro output and a standard AC power outlet, and another 20A AC breaker between the IOTA and the battery bank. I know I shouldn't use AC breakers for DC but I'm really just using them for switches, I'll get some DC breakers eventually. Usually in the morning my 8 golf cart batteries are at 48.6V but this morning they were at 50.5!
I finally got a multimeter that will read DC current and it's measuring 5.26 amps at 108V DC! 560 Watts or so, I'm stoked. 13+KW/h's per day should easily power the house 24/7 but for some reason it isn't so I need to trace that down now. My intake gets clogged a bit, anybody know of an affordable source for a small ( like 12x24 inch ) coanda screen?
Awesome Jedon! I'm jealous, that's over 12 kwh/day for free.
I thought I found a good site for coanda screens for you, but the co. this guy used is now out of business. But it's a good read anyhow:
http://www.homebrewhydro.com/coanda_water_intake.html
http://www.hydroscreen.com/products/hydro_turbine_diversion/index.html
http://www.conn-weld.com/sieve.htm
http://www.dulas.org.uk/coanda/content/
Thanks both of you for the links, I did email with Hydroscreen previously but they are around $350, I was hoping there was a cheaper alternative.
Conn weld looks pretty industrial but I should contact them to see if they would consider a pittling order.
I have been to home brewed hydro but like you say they aren't selling them anymore :-(
Very cool thread!
I would love to see more pics. It'd be nice to see the penstock as well as more shots of the turbine while it's working.
Congrats!
Steve
Thanks! Here are some videos I made of the process.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D9D9584BE7BF9815
Quote from: Jedon on January 14, 2011, 11:01:50 AM
Thanks! Here are some videos I made of the process.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D9D9584BE7BF9815
Whoa ! Thanks, Likely have to add some hydro for next winter. I'll be skimming water off the top of my pond, with a 4" PVC pipe, and use 3" poly to feed a generator. 30' won't give me much, but better than flat batteries.
Thanks Jedon! Keep the posts, pics, and videos coming. I found a thread of yours on fieldlines also and spent too much time reading it today. Like Mike90045, I'll be installing some hydro next fall also.
Will do, it's exciting and frustrating at the same time. Here is the last stuff I posted there:
I'm wondering if the input voltage to the charger is not high enough, it's right at the low end cutoff range, 108V. I'll put bigger jets on the hydro to get some more voltage out of it under load and if that doesn't work I'll lower the field resistance to keep the voltage up under lower flow rates.
This is the charger : http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls5413.htm
it does say 80% efficient so that would lower the 560W down to 450W, then the inverters are 97% so now we are down to 434W max, if the charger is producing less current at the lower voltage,
If it can push 13A into 54.4V, it can only push 11.7 into 49V ( battery bank voltage )? Or it makes 13A at 120V but only 11.7A @ 108? Combine the two for even less power?
Just throwing some silly ideas out, I have a Morningstar TS-60 PWM charge controller. Right now it's not hooked up. I have my PV going right into my batteries at 65V. I was going to hook my PV up to the TS-60, but should I instead hook the output up the IOTA up to it so that perhaps it trades some amps for volts and puts less load on the charger? Can I hook both the PV ( 65V ) and the IOTA ( 54.4V ) up to the TS-60 at the same time?
Anybody have some advise on how to tune the Harris unit? I have 1/2" nozzles and all 4 water inlets going and the pipe is staying full so water flow isn't an issue. Pressure might be? I only have 19psi. I played with the field adjustment on the Harris unit a lot today and didn't really get anywhere. I thought that if you turn it all the way strong then it's harder for the water to spin it so it spins slower and you get lots of amps but not as many volts, and it I make the field weaker then I get more volts but less amps. This doesn't really seem to be the case. At full strength at the turbine I get 8A @ 110V, when I go back to where the charger is 700ft away I get 105.4V and 5A. I expect the voltage drop but not the amperage drop, I though only voltage dropped over distance? I have 10g wire so I expect 10% voltage loss which would actually bring my voltage to 99V but it doesn't. ( from here http://www.nooutage.com/vdrop.htm ). I want to get as much voltage as possible to feed the AC IOTA charger which wants 108 to 132V AC which the 71% difference for DC means I need more like 150+V DC, not sure I can get that since the Harris unit is 120V DC rated, it's 208V open circuit but I can't get it above 112V loaded so far. Is there some way I can up the voltage electronically? I know I can't use a transformer since that's for AC. Should I stop wasting time and spend the $500 on an MPPT controller instead of the IOTA charger?
Thanks!!
Hi Jedon
Excellent stuff.
Could it be that the charger is clamping the voltage at 108V , does the voltage rise as the battery voltage rises towards fully charged ?
What are you measuring the current with , and yes 8A at the generator should be 8A at the charger end, unless the meter is being fooled somehow or some power is leaking some where.
Might have to test that old pump cable with a 500v meg/ohm meter
Also what happens when you turn one jet off ?
Cheers
Keith
Hi Jedon,
I would first suggest calculating your maximum available hydro power and then quantify/address the other power system losses. So I would first measure actual head (either static or dynamic pressure) and actual flow rate. I believe you already measured your actual head being 19 PSI, however, you didn't state whether this was dynamic or static head?
Using the calculator in this link to calculate your maximum available hydro power:
http://www.nooutage.com/hydroele.htm#How
(which assumes an overall 50% power system efficiency...which is actually pretty close to your setup: 65% for Harris x 80% for IOT x 97% for inverter x 95% for wire = 48%)
and:
your measured 19 PSI head (which I assume/hope is dynamic pressure...i.e., measured water pressure with valve open and maximum flow of water thru the pipe),
your 400 feet of 3" PVC,
and assuming 90 GPM flow rate (about the maximum pipe flow rate for your run of pipe above which pipe friction head loss becomes significant...and which shows up as the recommended "Minimum Pipe Diameter" in the calculator),
your maximum available power is about 355 watts (256 kWH per month).
If your measured 19 PSI head is actually static pressure (i.e., measured water pressure with valve closed and no water flowing thru the pipe), then 80 GPM is about maximum pipe flow rate, and your maximum available power is about 253 watts (182 kWH per month).
This link provides the Harris nozzle setup recommendations (i.e., the number of nozzles to use) to maximize Harris efficiency given your available head and flow rate:
http://www.nooutage.com/harris.htm
This link (see nozzle selection section) provides Harris nozzle size recommendations given your available head and flow rate:
http://www.nooutage.com/hydroele.htm#Nozzle
Your head/flow rate appears to be in the range where either 2 (5/8"), 3 (1/2") or 4 (7/16") nozzles would yield the maximum Harris efficiency.
Lots of potential hydro power in my creek today :o
Bob B.
In a circuit, AMPS have to be the same. Something else is wrong. I'd expect the voltage drop.
The Iota has a .6 power factor, so combine that with the 80% eff, and you are not going to get it's full output with a hydro generator.
You could feed the TS PWM controller with one OR the other, but it is PWM, and not MPPT and will not downconvert spare voltage to amps. You need MPPT to do that.
Panels, if connected without a blocking diode, will suck power from the batteries at night, draw varys on type of panels. Use a blocking diode rated for your full array power at about 100VDC.
( for $8 bucks, this should work http://search.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=APT100S20BG-ND )
I don't know if you can program the MS TS PWM into DIVERSION mode,
connect Solar and Hydro to the batteries, and when you hit diversion voltage, the MA TS dumps the excess into your load bank. (say about 11 - 3pm daily, if the sun is out and charging, and the hydro is going too.)
Bob, wow thanks for all the info! The 19psi is static, from GPS and Google Earth I though I had about 100' of drop but it turned out to be half that. Due to some fun with the pipes I don't have the pressure gauge on it at the moment.
If I should only be making 200W after all is said and done, perhaps it's all working like it should be and I just have over inflated ideas of how much power I should be getting due to going off the raw output of the hydro.
I noticed that now that I am running 4 1/2 nozzles that some air is getting into the pipe, my intake is a 3" pipe through a damn and even though there is water above the damn it doesn't seem to be letting quite enough through to keep the intake pipe fed. I guess I'll put one one of the smaller nozzles back on.
I fiddled with it some more and this time was more scientific about it, here are my results:
Full Field:
At the power shed ( 750ft from the turbine ) voltage was 109V to the charger and the batteries were are 50.1. Later when the sun was on the 800W of PV the battery voltage went up to 53V and the hydro voltage went up to 114.4V so there is a correlation between the voltage of the batteries and the loaded hydro voltage.
I went down the the turbine and measured 108.8V when the voltage at the shed was 109.2V, I then shut it off and connected my multimeter to read current and got 8.4A which then fluctuated a bit and even went down to 5.2A when some air was in the pipe.
To test the water pressure I then measured with nozzles off:
1 nozzle 1.5A @ 107.7V
2 nozzles 3.1A @ 109.4V
3 nozzles 4.6A @ 109.6V
4 nozzles 8.4A @ 108.8V
I noticed that there was more load on the unit with my meter than with the IOTA alone, it spins slower when I measure amps than when I measure volts.
I then started playing with the field strength:
1/8th turn off full field:
1 nozzle 1.5A @ 109.3V
2 nozzles 2.7A @ 111.8V
3 nozzles 3.9A @ 113.3V
4 nozzles 4.8A @ 113.8V
1/4 turn off full:
1 nozzle 1.5A @ 108.7V
2 nozzles 3.0A @ 111.2V
3 nozzles 3.8A @ 112.7V
4 nozzles 4.5A @ 112.8V
3/8 turn off of full:
1 nozzle 2.8A @ 106.9V
2 nozzles 5.8A @ 105.8V
3 nozzles 5.8A @ 106.5V
4 nozzles 5.8A @ 103.4V
1/2 turn off full field
1 nozzle 3.7A @ 79.6V
2 nozzles 3.8A @ 77.7V
3 nozzles 3.8A @ 77.7V
4 nozzles 3.8A @ 77.7V
I left it at 1/8th off of full then took readings for a while, the voltage slowly dropped down to 110.3V.
Back at the power shed it was 108.8. A bit later when the batteries got up to 52.2 from the solar it was 112.8, then 114.4 @ 53.3V.
Mike,
I tried connecting the hydro right to the batteries and it drops the hydro voltage down to match the batteries, it didn't seem to make much power like that but I don't really have any way to measure it besides seeing what the battery voltage is in the morning.
I can set the TS-60 to diversion mode but I've never come close to needing a dump load so far.
Right now the hydro alternator is set for high voltage wye, I could wire it into delta and try hooking it directly to the batteries like that? Perhaps line losses at the lower voltage would be offset by the inefficiencies of the charger?
This is a great thread! Very interesting.... I have little knowledge of hydro systems. This is great!
So is the amount of head available the limiting factor? or is it the hydro system? both?
Rob
Hi Jedon,
Glad I could be of some help.
OK, if your 19 PSI is indeed "static pressure", than the elevation difference between your pipe intake and your Harris location (which is also your maximum available "gross head") is exactly 44 feet (i.e., 19 PSI divided by 0.433 PSI per foot).
Now we need to calculate your pipe head loss due to the pipe friction in your 400 feet run of 3" PVC pipe so we can determine the "net head" available at your Harris location:
At 50 GPM, there is 0.65 feet of head loss for every 100 feet of 3" PVC pipe. So, at 50 GPM, you will lose about 2.6 feet of head (i.e., 4 times 0.65). So the "net head" available at your Harris location is about 41 feet if your flow rate is 50 GPM.
At 100 GPM, there is 2.33 feet of head loss for every 100 feet of 3" PVC pipe. So, at 100 GPM, you will lose about 9.3 feet of head (i.e., 4 times 2.33). So the "net head" available at your Harris location is about 35 feet if your flow rate is 100 GPM.
At 150 GPM, there is 4.93 feet of head loss for every 100 feet of 3" PVC pipe. So, at 150 GPM, you will lose about 19.7 feet of head (i.e., 4 times 4.93). So the "net head" available at your Harris location is about 24 feet if your flow rate is 150 GPM.
With 400 feet of 3" PVC pipe, a drop of 44 feet, a PVC roughness coefficient of 130, and applying the Hazen-Williams equation, your "net head" will go to zero at about 200 GPM.
http://www.calctool.org/CALC/eng/civil/hazen-williams_g
Lets say you elected to use 6" in lieu of 3" PVC pipe. At 150 GPM, there is 0.2 feet of head loss for every 100 feet of 6" PVC pipe. So, at 150 GPM, you will lose about 0.8 feet of head (i.e., 4 times 0.2). So the "net head" available at your Harris location is about 43 feet if your flow rate is 150 GPM.
The fundamental hydropower "rule of thumb" (which assumes a 53% overall efficiency to get the magic "10") is:
Power (in Watts) equals Net Head (in Feet) times Flow Rate (in GPM), all divided by 10
At 50 GPM and 41 feet of "net head", we would expect about 205 Watts.
At 100 GPM and 35 feet of "net head", we would expect about 350 Watts.
At 150 GPM and 24 feet of "net head", we would expect 360 Watts.
If you used 6" PVC pipe, at 150 GPM and 43 feet of "net head", we would expect 645 Watts.
I think this illustrates how pipe size and flow rate can significantly influence "net head" (and "dynamic pressure") and ultimately your available power...and why it would be very worthwhile to know the maximum pipe flow rate (or the "dynamic pressure"). I would guess your actual power to be between 205 and 360 Watts. This is also consistent with the previous 19 PSI static pressure NoOutage calculation of 253 Watts.
Arguably, multiplying your voltage and current measurement, should get the job done too. If we use your 1/8 turn, 4 nozzle configuration and multiply 4.8A times 113.8V, we get 546 Watts. There appears about 46% power calculation discrepancy between using your measured voltage/current versus using your measured static head and likely flow rate given your pipe configuration. I am very curious how this can be?
How confident are you about your pressure and current measurements? Any chance you can measure the pipe flow rate (see McMaster-Carr water flow meter for PVC pipe, P/N 4349K4)? Here's another way:
http://smallhydro.com/200910/small-micro-hydro/measuring-the-flow-rate-q-from-an-openpipe/
BTW and unlike "static pressure" (which needs to be measured at your Harris location), it really doesn't matter where you measure the flow rate (or "dynamic pressure") along the length of pipe. Flow rate and "dynamic pressure" don't change along the pipe length (unlike "static pressure" and ultimately "net head", which do change along the length of pipe).
Bob B.
Quote from: mike90045 on January 16, 2011, 02:01:27 PM
In a circuit, AMPS have to be the same. Something else is wrong.
Precisely! In a pipe with relatively incompressible fluid like water, flow rate (GPM) has to be the same too. In fact, flow rate in pipe is analogous to current in an electrical circuit...and pressure in pipe is analogous to voltage in an electrical circuit. I suspect inaccurate current (Amps) measurement is the likely culprit.
Bob B.
Quote from: rl71459 on January 16, 2011, 03:36:13 PM
So is the amount of head available the limiting factor? or is it the hydro system? both?
Rob
Available "gross head" (which is essentially the elevation change of stream across your property) and available stream flow rate are the ultimate limiting factors in terms of how much hydro power one can generate. Then economics come into play...size and length of pipe you can install (which influences the "net head" your turbine will see)...and size of turbine/generator you can install...
Bob B.
Bob B.
Great pic of Evans Creek! And thanks for the link to nooutage.com. Great site.
Here is something that could be an issue, I don't measure the current and voltage at the same time, measure the voltage then shut the unit down, switch to current measuring and turn it back on. So in the case where I am measuring voltage the unit is loaded down by the IOTA but when I measure current it's loaded by both the DMM and the IOTA, could this make a significant difference? I do notice that the unit has more load on it when I measure current with the DMM than when it's loaded only by the IOTA.
I would guess I'm closer to 150gpm than to 80, the 3" pipe was a compromise between high winter flow rates and much lower summer flow rates, I was afraid that if I was only putting 30gpm into the pipe in the summer that a 4" would get air in it but I guess that's not really right since I restrict the flow with the nozzles. Cost and weight of the pipes was a more significant issue. Plus I really thought I was going to have 100' of head instead of less than 50.
When I got up this morning my battery voltage was at 49.4V whereas before I switched out a 3/8 nozzle for a 1/2 and lowered the field strength a little the voltage in the morning was more like 50.1 to 50.5 so I have managed to make things worse instead of better.
Bob B, Wow your creek is raging! I actually have one like that on a corner of my property but it's 2200ft from the house so I decided to start the hydro projects closer and easier even though it means less power, I'll expand later. I can increase my head by running more pipe, the only issue is that I need to go under a gravel road that has an easement through our property that is jointly maintained by Tahoe National Forest and logging companies. There is a culvert but it's not mine so I guess I would need to trench the road myself to get the pipe across. I could get a couple hundred feet of head that way if I ran probably another 500' of pipe. Maybe next year.
Seems like 3 1/2" nozzles open and full field strength might be the way to go, I'll try that tonight, thank you so much for all your help!!
QuoteI need to go under a gravel road that has an easement through our property that is jointly maintained by Tahoe National Forest and logging companies. There is a culvert but it's not mine so I guess I would need to trench the road myself to get the pipe across
That's deja vu! There's a creek like that through the middle of my land w/ a paved BLM easement road right next to it. I could put the wire conduit through one of the culverts, except that I don't have any water rights, and the BLM/Forest Service guys drive by every so often looking for pot growers. A bootlegged hydro system would be spotted quickly. That's why I'm eyeing one of the little seasonal tributary creeks. ;)
P.S. You mean 3 x 1/2" nozzles, not 3.5" nozzles, correct? 3.5" nozzles would blow you away! :) Just semantics...
Quote from: Jedon on January 17, 2011, 10:51:39 AM
Bob B, Wow your creek is raging! I actually have one like that on a corner of my property but it's 2200ft from the house so I decided to start the hydro projects closer and easier even though it means less power, I'll expand later. I can increase my head by running more pipe, the only issue is that I need to go under a gravel road that has an easement through our property that is jointly maintained by Tahoe National Forest and logging companies. There is a culvert but it's not mine so I guess I would need to trench the road myself to get the pipe across. I could get a couple hundred feet of head that way if I ran probably another 500' of pipe. Maybe next year.
Seems like 3 1/2" nozzles open and full field strength might be the way to go, I'll try that tonight, thank you so much for all your help!!
You are most welcome Jedon. Keep measuring and tweaking, and I'm certain you will get it sorted out to your satisfaction.
My creek is 37 feet from the corner of existing and future house. So high flow and low head is clearly the best approach for me. I have settled on about 20 feet of 12" pipe feeding a DIY Banki cross-flow turbine and DIY PMA (as previously described).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-flow_turbine
Here's a commercial cross-flow turbine:
http://www.ossberger.de/cms/en/hydro/the-ossberger-turbine-for-asynchronous-and-synchronous-water-plants/
The plan is to rig up a mechanically governed guillotine valve at inlet to modulate flow rate into the turbine as required given the actual creek flow conditions and power requirements.
Bob B.
I was thinking a banki would be good for my other hydro source but I couldn't find anything commercially available at a reasonable price.
Quote from: Jedon on January 17, 2011, 12:22:38 PM
I was thinking a banki would be good for my other hydro source but I couldn't find anything commercially available at a reasonable price.
Agreed, a Banki is most certainly a DIY design/construction project :)
This will give you an idea of what's involved:
http://www.cd3wd.com/cd3wd_40/vita/bankitur/en/bankitur.htm
Bob B.
This look like a good place for a banki or would a pelton still be a good idea?
Quote from: Jedon on January 17, 2011, 01:18:58 PM
This look like a good place for a banki or would a pelton still be a good idea?
I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but to make right determination, we need hard data... We would need to know gross head and design flow rate ???
Once you know that, you can look at head/flow rate chart in Osseberger site and see what turbine is best.
Bob B.
If I'm going to siphon off my pond, for wintertime hydro, I need to conserve water on sunny days, and I wonder if anyone has suggestions for a remote control (electric ?) 4" water valve. Grainger has a butterfly 4" at only $1,100 with no control ckt. Thats going to cost too much. Any suggestions for something suitable ?
Quote from: mike90045 on January 17, 2011, 02:27:32 PM
If I'm going to siphon off my pond, for wintertime hydro, I need to conserve water on sunny days, and I wonder if anyone has suggestions for a remote control (electric ?) 4" water valve. Grainger has a butterfly 4" at only $1,100 with no control ckt. Thats going to cost too much. Any suggestions for something suitable ?
Here's a DIY cheap controller :)
http://www.hackersbench.com/Projects/3bucktimer/
misspoke - I mean the water controller, need a 4" valve to gracefully shut off flow when the batteries are full, to conserve my pond for the next rainy day. And some way to not break the valve while it's operating.
mike, do you have to siphon?
I know this doesn't solve the problem of cutting off the pipe flow when the sun come out but here's a poor man's method of not draining the pond:
Why not set the pipe intake at a level below the spillway but so that you won't drain the pond. Make a T to make a siphon pipe continue down further if you want to make hydro longer than the normal intake allows. Put ball valves in both the both legs. Open just the upper pipe if you are going to be away but want the hydro to stop at a certain water level. Close the upper pipe and open the siphon pipe when you need power but don't care that the pond will get low.
Or make the intake pipe in the pond adjustable in height w/ flexible 2" hose, like radiator hose. Set it at the desired "drain to" level and let 'er rip. It's only the top few feet so it wouldn't be under pressure. Add a filter/screen at the end of the flex hose. In a pond you get good settling, so you probably wouldn't have to have a complicated filter setup.
Just thinking while typing so I don't know if any of that fits the bill.
Marcus
Yep, siphon is the way I'd want to go, the pipe is at the spillway, but, I'd rather intake water from 3' down (no floating leaves there) and in winter, gives me a lot more water to use n rainy days, than if I was at spillway only. (the pond, just under 2 acre feet) fills quickly, and if I just use the top 5", isn't much room to play with, maybe 1 day of power. Dipping down a couple feet, will give me several days, and then more rain will refill. But, to keep from wasting the water, I'd rather throttle the water (with a $1,100 valve ?) than divert the power to a floodlight bulb ($5).
I'll also think of the T and manual valves, but I'd have to build a dock (more $$) to get there, the current pipe stops at the 45 deg slope, and it's dangerously slippery when dry, impossible when wet.
How much does dips in the penstock affect pressure at the bottom?
Not much unless you've got a big slug of air in the pent stock.
Thanks, I'll focus my energies elsewhere for now then :-)
What about my idea of either putting a transformer on the alternator before it gets rectified, or not rectifying the power at all?
I'm going to call IOTA and have them explain a little more how the charger works.
Quote from: Jedon on January 18, 2011, 10:23:22 AM
.......I'm going to call IOTA and have them explain a little more how the charger works.
It's a simple DC switcher supply. Voltage comes in, is rectified to DC, oscillator converts to AC, @ 1-4 KHz (small efficient transformer) and the output voltage fine tunes the osc to regulate the voltage. No regulators on heat sinks that only waste heat.
If the input runs short of power, the output gets throttled back.
My problem with the Iota, is that it is more of a Power Supply, and not a battery charger. It does get enough voltage to bulk charge, but not enough to absorb, unless you are not using any power.
And at 48V, it's 15 A capacity is light for a 400ah battery bank (needs 40AH really) But it's better than a boot to the head.
Thanks for the info!
So I have a 200AH bank ( 8 6V golf cart batteries ) and am feeding it DC not AC so I guess the rectifiers aren't doing anything.
My question is how does the charger deal with lower input voltage?
Does the output decrease with the input voltage regardless of current?
So it wants 108V AC minimum but I give it ( loaded ) 109V DC ( but that's 71% of 109V AC or 78V? http://www.bcae1.com/voltages.htm ) ? If so then it doesn't seem like it should even be working but it is.
How can I measure the current coming out of the charger? I tried it with my DMM but it backfeeds from the battery bank, ZAP!
Quote from: mike90045 on January 17, 2011, 06:07:06 PM
misspoke - I mean the water controller, need a 4" valve to gracefully shut off flow when the batteries are full, to conserve my pond for the next rainy day. And some way to not break the valve while it's operating.
Mike, here are a couple other 4" butterfly control valve options:
http://www.murrayequipment.com/dyncat.asp?SGroup=Butterfly Valves 4 Inch
Electric is about $900 and pneumatic is about $300.
You may need to type "Valves 4 Inch" after the above URL to get there.
Here's a 6" pneumatic for $275:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hayward-6-inch-PVC-Butterfly-Valve-Comp-4-ACT-Mac-/190367568274?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c52ca9192
Bob B.
It has been pointed out to me that I've been reading current wrong, I had the DMM configured right but was reading across + and - instead of inserting into circuit, whoooooops!
Time to re-measure.
;D
I called IOTA and they said performance falls off as voltage decreases and that if I was feeding it DC it wanted more like 130V instead of the 106-114V I'm feeding it.
I asked about perhaps bypassing the rectifiers on the alternator and feeding the charger wild AC and they said that would probably work better so I'll give that a try.
Before trying this I contacted the maker of the hydro and he said I can't do that because it's 3 phase.
Now what?
enjoy the watts you have ! go back and re-tune and keep the batteries charged
Hehe well yes I am enjoying the watts but I'm hungry for power!
Just like German-Chinese food, 1/2 later you are hungry for power :-D
Next step is gathering a lot more data and accurately this time.
I measured using the correct method this time, putting the meter in the circuit instead of across it.
From hydro at shed: 1.88a at 112.4v ( 211 watts )
Out of IOTA: 3.56a at 50.7v ( 180 watts )
So the charger is being 85% efficient which seems about right?
My guy feeling form our house power usage is that 180 watts seems about what we are getting, about enough to break even most of the time.
Now I can go futz with the alternator and see how much more power I can eek out of it.
Not understanding why you can't send out wild AC three-phase from that alternator head? 211 watts is not too much to think about making your own "power supply". If you want the most out of your hydro you'll need to increase the voltage to your batteries. 50.7 V is never going to get them really charged. Your alternator must have a rectifier in it that can be removed. At least if you put a 2:1 transformer inbetween the wild AC and a new rectifier you'd get around 112.4 / 2 = 56 V, correct? Eliminate the IOTA charger and run that DC direct to the batts. Use a C40 for dump load. Maybe I missed something?
Marcus
i agree with Marcus, 52volts isn't going to charge the batteries and if they are flooded cells there isn't enough to stir the electrolyte
either. i am not sure why the charger cannot get a bit higher output than what it is.
even a 48 volt switch mode power supply generally can be adjusted higher than 52volts and would be more efficient too boot.
not sure i would be happy until i got the voltage up to around 57.6vdc and have the capability to go to maybe 62 for equalization.
maybe a bit more tweaking/tuning is in order? recheck all connections, voltage drops etc.
bob g
Marcus, I'll keep my eye out for an affordable transformer, that's maybe what I should have done to begin with.
Bob, the IOTA outputs 56.6V but when I connect it to the batteries it goes down to what the batteries were at plus a little, 3.6 amps isn't enough to raise the voltage of my 200AH bank much I guess. I'll measure again later today when the PV panels bring the voltage up to 53 or so.
For now I still need to run the generator in the evening so that gets the voltage up to 58 and I can equalize when needed.