Hi all,
Thought I would share some shop work.
GTC 6/1 in for cleaning, correcting and assembly. engine is actually all 8/1 other than the spiked flywheels. It came in along with a GM90 twin, first one of those I have ever seen in person and a Lister 6/1. First phase is done, tear down and cleaned in the parrs washer.
A GM-90 twin cylinder? I did not know a twin was made. I've seen GM-90 singles up to 20 or 22 hp and they are monsters. Please post some pics.
The 8-1 block casting looks good In the picture. Does the 8-1 have an aluminum piston? Looking forward seeing the build.
Henry
The 6/1 has Aluminum piston with same ring package as cast iron which is odd and another new one on me. Also has
no COV and the lighter governor weights. All 8/1 except the 'wheels. The engine is also 7 stud head, no wet liner, bushing mains and has two oil sumps as per Lister. Its always interesting to open one of these up and see what was used to build it. I thought I had a picture of the GM90 but ca t find it on the phone, I will post one later.
Thanks, :)
I lost lots of pics in a hard drive crash years ago. It's unfortunate but at least most of the important pics are saved on microcogen.
Henry
I had everything hosted on Tinypic and when it went away so did a lot of my pics, oh well. I am glad that Bob will host them here.
Here is the GM90 twin and a 6/1 Lister behind it hardly visable.
IMO India supplies what amounts to a set of parts which the ship as an assembled engine. At my little enterprise basic block work consists of cleaning in a hot caustic wash cabinet followed by bead blasting the interior to get rid of bad coatings, slag and sand. This is followed with needle scaler, chisels and punches removing all contaminants that can be removed. Then a oil resistant enamel is applied to seal in what was missed and embedded. All gasket surfaces are filed to remove burrs that cause leaks and springy assembly. Threads are chased, studs installed with a dab of sealer and the block is ready for assembly.
Quote from: playdiesel on July 26, 2020, 11:46:15 AM
Here is the GM90 twin and a 6/1 Lister behind it hardly visable.
Wow! Someday, I would love to see the inside of it. I wonder if it has a counter balanced crank like the GM90 6/1.
Quote from: playdiesel on July 26, 2020, 01:52:16 PM
IMO India supplies what amounts to a set of parts which the ship as an assembled engine. At my little enterprise basic block work consists of cleaning in a hot caustic wash cabinet followed by bead blasting the interior to get rid of bad coatings, slag and sand. This is followed with needle scaler, chisels and punches removing all contaminants that can be removed. Then a oil resistant enamel is applied to seal in what was missed and embedded. All gasket surfaces are filed to remove burrs that cause leaks and springy assembly. Threads are chased, studs installed with a dab of sealer and the block is ready for assembly.
Your certainly doing it right. Beautiful job! It's good to see builds happening here again. I can't wait to see more!
Henry
Quote from: Henry W on July 26, 2020, 05:50:43 PM
Quote from: playdiesel on July 26, 2020, 11:46:15 AM
Here is the GM90 twin and a 6/1 Lister behind it hardly visable.
Wow! Someday, I would love to see the inside of it. I wonder if it has a counter balanced crank like the GM90 6/1.
It will be following the 6/1 through the shop. these won't be as picture heavy as I would like due to my limited connection . Satellite internet is realy bad. I had to post on 4G data.
That's fine, Right now I'm enjoying the project your working on. I also have slow internet service. For now we just have to use what we have.
Henry
On we go correcting parts. Every gasket mating surface on an India engine will have dents and raised areas from rough handling that cause leaks and springy feel during assembly. The cure is handiwork with a mill bastard file. The shiny area are high spots removed, about 5 minutes work.
Actually they look better than some others I've seen. Looking good.
How are the crank bearings? I hope they been installed properly. I seen a listeroid engine years ago that had huge dings on the thrust end. It looked like the slammed them in with a hammer. ::)
The bearings are in good shape, most are ruined during erecting or during the "flushing" process. Saves the owner some cash as they are quite spendy. This GTC branded engine is by far the best India engine I have ever laid my fingers on. All good parts, minimal sand.
After deburring the crank, filing down all the dings and checking it for straightness it is ready to install. Correct shimming is very important and much bad information has been posted previously. Be sure to stack shims with the cut side all same way, out or in makes no difference. Then as you slide the housing up on the studs llift the shims up on the piloting flange so they don't get pinched between it and the face. For a bushing engine like this one it should be set up with .010" endplay with used bushings and .005- .008 with new ones. For tapered roller mains it is imperative that end play is set at .000 , No end play and NEVER any preload as preload bends the crank inward at the throw. No sealers are needed when the gasketing surfaces are properly prepped.
Just another detail that takes little time and makes for a quality job, deburring the nuts. In my experiance the metal quality is good enough but finish is terrible. I flat file the clamping surface for proper function, and the outside just so they look good.
You are fortunate to have good bearings. Are the fasteners all Whitworth threads? It's been a while since I've been around one.
Great detail.
Henry
To my knowledge all Listeroids are Whitworth threads.
On to camshaft and lifters. Over the years much has been posted about issues and fixes, unfortunately most of it is not of any real use. We have had enough of these through the shop to have a base of what the real issues are with lifter rotation and valve timing . I will address rotation here and timing later.
Lifter rotation is caused by only one thing, pressure on the lifter that is not centered on the lifter axis. Engineers used various methods to accomplish it but on a CS the lifters are not centered over the cam lobes. I have never seen an India cam that did NOT have the lobes correctly placed, so why are there issues with most of them?? 4 things
1. Loose lifter guides
2. flimsey stamped guide clamp
3. lifter face not square to axis
4. bent camshaft.
Fixes
1 and 2 Check the fit of the guides in the block. If snug enough that the guides must be tapped in put a gasket under them and tap them in and place the flimsy clamp over them and tighten. However, if they are loose in the block the flimsy clamp will not hold them square and that causes issues, mainly with the exhaust. The fix is to trash the tin clamp and make a heavy duty one that will hold the guides down and square. sorry no pics of that since this engine has tight guides.
3. I have never seen an India lifter that was correctly ground. some are close, some are real bad. This shows up as lifters that rotate back and forth or not at all depending on how far out they are. we have equipment to fix this. it's not something one can do in the average home shop.
4. bent cams, adressed in next post.
pics show lifters that have been properly dressed.
More work on the 6/1. In my experience, 30 some Listeroids through the shop, bent camshaft are a major issue and get likely the vast majority of Listeroid timing problema reported.
Photo show cam up on blocks and TIR. depending on which way itvis bent this much bend coould affect valve opening and closing events by 15 -20 degrees.
I look forward to reading of your fix for the bent camshaft. Thanks to Butch's great instructional article I was able to address that for my neighbors DES 8/1. I used hardwood vee blocks and sledge hammer with hardwood drift to get it back to true, and the force required was absolutely scary. I'd find a press if I had to do it again.
How does a camshaft get bent ? Gorillas in the factory whamming it together, making it fit ?
That is the exact question I was going to ask.
Can a piece of round tool steel be used to replace it? I would think it would be easy to drill pin holes at proper angles. But than again it would have to be degreed and locked up properly possibly in a lathe. So it might not be as easy as I would think.
Henry
I must say that your getting lots accomplished and doing a beautiful job. I'm enjoying the build. Your documentation is very good and I'm looking forward seeing more. :)
Henry
I can only speculate on how the cans get bent but it's very likely that it happens when installing the taper pins in the shafts. I have also seen shafts that were drilled but never had a taper reamer used prior to installing the pin and that will certainly push the shaft around. I have also seen severely bent cams in engines that have rusted the valves tight. When they are cranked over with stuck valves it bends the cam. Sraightening the cam is easy most of the time. Press is of course preferred but no reason it could be done with 3 hardwood blocks and a 2lb hammer. Its not hard to build a cam. the pin holes in the lobes are situated so all the holes are in a line. You just have to get the spacing right.
Valve seats are something that India does a very poor job. The typical seat is 2X wider than the valve face. while it will get an engine out the door it won't seal for very long.
I cut out the old seat, counter bore and install hard seats with K-Line tooling.
After performing a bit of port blending I cut, not grind, a 3 angle seat with Kwikway tooling and set valve depth at .055" which is the minimum spec, that way the seats and valves can be ground several times before the valve heads reach the maximum depth of .100"
Quote from: playdiesel on August 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM
Valve seats are something that India does a very poor job. The typical seat is 2X wider than the valve face. while it will get an engine out the door it won't seal for very long.
I cut out the old seat, counter bore and install hard seats with K-Line tooling.
What is the K-Line tooling you're using there? I took a look on their site and it seems like the pieces under counter boring are all for doing cylinder boring or re-sleeving?
This a great thread that you posted here. I have a 2-24 listeroid that has been sitting here for years that I'm just going back to work on the teardown. Your work is very inspirational!
I bought a set like this to do the valves in my 6/1. The seats cut with it are working great.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/N5cAAOSwvwRgRxzh/s-l1600.jpg)https://www.ebay.com/itm/184772588925?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2b054df57d:g:N5cAAOSwvwRgRxzh&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACgBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickk8Fd9si%252FIbtWQr%252BhnlRwjDZoTDUvT8EcOseA%252BWmLYStBd8eEJtk51EfLh1xifvnCQ9O%252FNviYTVpaL6hl8HUDnUXQUb01EDQUB%252BuAFtBXoo6XgoQuAhmVEXOHRk2sZyqyrcNfKgxm6JDB8aVRkOj%252BgWrJU4oBlTPhmNrbsRjvRcWVnm1AxKZ7Gnm93b5ShuTBc4jfHzAewE8ofJQu2i6kpuia8WvNWiMg3TJleq%252FOaYCpnGFgQpVDPBt5LjQOXQN0anuUcfwlARaPY4l8e3BmTBX%252BMkxZLYGZRhurycEOM6ImkI3dlgPLcPTOncbOaNzz5CnD8rjq%252BAHrN2E%252FH%252B0%252F8i6EnTMjz90keOviLe5356%252FPe5steB3xUX%252Ffs8Nvomwvh3T9bGdK5cXWXSxh9O9VDTQHiHaDYeaorCpknesiamgngLM0v62hirLKWOc8mkASz8GfKE8K5trM51llFCM%252BiEeV%252FXh7LzCPUu6Z4inLW%252BnPBEDYUNIjbLvwuytonHHwqKMsaTag%252BL7P49QqdPHs%252BNADpQQkzFvHeuJLgaZ1kCB1CQjBmUQJz3G7B%252FrF2r%252BCaMYAiWSS4zLepUum4tTIAHqbhWh1CuB2z5xRyLl196aRLUVozE3I03foKtoaIkmJ7pmdnFrb6BHNnnPmRt4PBDza1Djr9C2adlyOIMBrOAs9xHTY0azb22AI%252BgheqnB9Ct6MJuCFsGZDlDnrOTY1919IwcBGCnsRKl4F%252FhMpPpOjgYWP8Ql6%252BHAEUGPpia%252BB5%252FRAjNp7WcprM8dioJgnLeGQGeEEwj74qBVzrXk2n72Q%253D%7Ccksum%3A1847725889250a0efa8305564ad49956c8fdc51c55a0%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524
Thanks!
What did you use for seats (ie what material/supplier)?
I have this as a possible part for a off the shelf seat:
"Detroit Diesel series 92 valve seats are a very close replacement" for the 6/1's and their family. it's what the machine shop put into my head.
Thanks, will look at those.
Quote from: mike90045 on June 09, 2021, 05:14:37 PM
I have this as a possible part for a off the shelf seat:
"Detroit Diesel series 92 valve seats are a very close replacement" for the 6/1's and their family. it's what the machine shop put into my head.
I used the seat cutter on the factory seats. If you do inserts you might as well just have the machine shop do the whole job. I did a head with the seats Mike suggested and it never did seal right. there maybe a crack in it though. Had the same problem before doing the seats.
been a while, had some time so i thought i would read a bit on the forum and catch up a bit.
as for indian bent cams, seats that are too wide, etc... don't think for a moment that is limited to indian manufactures
i remember all too well in the mid 70' into the early 80's the cummins big cam engines that would shake your teeth out
at idle, it was so bad you couldn't see out the side rear view mirrors at idle. you had to bring the idle speed up to about 1000rpm
to be able to get the mirrors to stop vibrating so you could see out of them.
turns out it was sloppy cam follower/timing, each pair of cylinders had shims under the cam follower to set the timing, and cummins apparently just
through in the standard set of gskts, and get 'er out the door.
it wasn't until late '81 while working for a very well respected shop that i found out what the problem really was, and what they did about it.
they would fuss with those shim gaskets until the got a quarter thousands between all cylinders. the result was an engine that ran silky smooth.
wasn't just cummins
detroit diesel 71 and 92 injectors, from their reliabilt line were dreadful, and we didn't know what that problem was for years, rough running very difficult
to get the rack set stable, and having to use more buffer screw at times than you would like.
it wasn't until '83 i found out the problem, i had an aftermarket rebuilder come in to my shop and sold me a set of Krody/Colyer rebuilt injectors.
what they told me was that the "reliabilt" injectors for instance if they were N65 brown tag (typical of an 8v71 nat) they might in actuality be N63 to N68 and would pass
inspection as good enough. so in a set of 8 you might have 7 that were N63 and 1 that was N68, if so then you had an engine that was very difficult to get to run smoothly.
i installed a set of his injectors, and they were so well matched that the only reason i used the buffer screw was to catch the rack on deaccelleration from full throttle to idle. those engines that used those injectors were as smooth as silk.
its hard to find an excuse for sloppy work, especially when they charge top dollar and are a first world oem manufacture.
i can't begin to tell you how many mechanics thought they were to blame for engines after overhaul that just didn' want to run right. little did they know it was the crap parts they were working with.
bob g