My thermostat is the NAPA 253 (190 degree). Should I use a normal radiator cap (11 PSI) or should I go with one that has had the spring removed (0 PSI). I've read somewhere the seals were not designed for pressure. It appears if I go with 0 PSI cap I will need a much larger over flow tank. Which is the best route?
Regards
Mark
You don't have to remove a spring, you need to remove the little disc and rubber sealing ring in the center of the part of the cap that is inserted into the filler neck. It is the part labeled as "vacume relief valve" in this linked pic.
http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/CoolingSystem/RadiatorCap-2b.jpg
This is the valve that allows coolant to flow freely back into the system from the expansion tank when the system pulls a vacume. Removing this disc will allow coolant to flow freely to-from the expansion tank. It can usually be removed easilly by clipping or drilling/grinding the center pin or rivet that retains it.
Unless you have a hundred gallons in your system, you are not going to need very much of an expansion tank. my coolant system uses 2 gallons and the expansion tank level changes about 1/2" from 30F to 200F in a tank like this one linked below, napa P/N 730-4514, which is a great little expansion tank that has a bottom feed option, you just have to drill out the bottom hose barb to start using it.
http://m.napaonline.com/Tablet/parts/ProductFinder.aspx?k=730-4514&interchange=false
The tank really needs to be above the radiator cap to insure the radiator is kept 100% full all the time. That is the weak spot in thermosiphon, the upper feed line into the radiarot must remain completely full/submerged to maintain thermosiphon flow...
X2 on everything Ronmar said.
If your chosen radiator and cap uses the top seal such as the link he posted you can gut the cap and water will come and go freely through the overflow hose. If you are using an older type radiator and cap that seals only at the bottom of the neck then you will have to add a tube to the top tank that will serve to both vent the radiator and all a path for coolant to coma and go. I tried the pressured system with my 1115 and that lasted one start up as it shoved coolant past the head gasket.
A viable alternative for all the adapting are the radiators designed for thermosyphon systems. They are distinct in that they have a large reserve capacity above the top hose designed into them. These are now my choice instead of converting and the associated tanks and lines. The ones I like to use are both common ( in farm country) and cheap. This is a John Deere LUC power unit radiator on a 6/1 'roid. Other than hot days at full load you dont even need a fan. I placed a few ads and bough up several of these for $75 or less. The necks are too large for our usage but I simply turned some adapters on the lathe and epoxied them in place. Lowes or Home depot has clamp on adapters that will work in the plumbing section.
(http://oi41.tinypic.com/24wvaky.jpg)
Thanks for that Ronmar and Playdiesel. When I inherited this thing, the rad and cap were laying on the ground next to it. It was not in good shape. At the wifes request, I ended up buying a new one (she likes shiny things) but didn't inspect his original cap closely until today. It was a newer type radiator and I replaced it with basically the same one. This morning I noticed the original cap did have the vacume relief valve removed. So I also removed it from the new one this morning.
But last night, before realizing the vacume relief valve had been removed, I removed the spring from it, put it on and brought it up to temp using a clear gallon jug as the overflow to see what would happen. Before the tstat even opened I had a half gallon in the jug. But shortly after the tstat opened all but an inch of the jug went back into rad. It seemed to be working as I can see the siphoning through some short clear hoses next to the rad in/outs. The fans came on at about 217 degrees and went off at around 195. I didn't let it cycle more because the dinner bell rang.
I'll test again this evening using the new cap with the vacume relief valve removed.
Thanks again.
Mark
Your description is not uncommon for a first system run/coolant system purge. It may have had some air in the system(upper radiator tank) that pushed a bunch of water out as soon as the hot water heated it to expansion. In an unpressurized system, the air expands a great deal more than the fluid. As soon as it was expelled, the system drew all the fluid that would have occupied the expanded airspace, back into the system... I would guess that it will not expand nearly as much the next run...
Quote from: Ronmar on August 12, 2014, 06:40:20 PM
I would guess that it will not expand nearly as much the next run...
Yep, you were right. There still seemed to be a little air but much better now. I can probably even live with my original expansion tank. It's about half the size of the one you recommended. I went ahead and picked one up anyway just in case for$8.00.
Man when that tstat opens up all hell breaks loose for a few seconds.
Regards
Mark
no reason for the system to not be able to stand up to at least 10psi
if the gskt is leaking under very little pressure, replace it with a good gskt and double check
things like liner protrusion.
my testing has been on the 195's admittedly, however i can see no reason why an 1115 would be any different in its capability.
i run a 7lb cap in order to run between 205 and 214F without issues.
the cylinder liner orings can surely handle the pressure in my opinion.
as for thermosiphon systems, i am not sure having a pressurized system would have a detrimental effect on its operation.
thermosiphon certainly has its place, however the 1115 really lends itself to a radiator/pressurized system and a coolant pump. efficiency goes up with coolant temperature in my experience, and once you get over about 195 relying on thermosyphon can be problematic, at least in my opinion.
another point worth mentioning, the engine being of horizontal design, makes it a bit more difficult to get sufficient circulation via thermosiphon through the cylinder head, the cyl head temps will be quite a bit higher than that which is measured in the main part of the block. it is not unusual to see temperatures in the 240d F range in the cylinder head. at these temperatures air bubbles are likely to form in copious amounts, these bubbles can cause issue with thermosiphoning. this is the primary reason the engine's are rated so conservatively because you can't get much more power out with an antiquated cooling system design (read that thermosiphon)
as an example the 195 is rated at ~12hp continuous, with thermosiphon and you can push it to ~13 for a 1 hour rating owing to the need to add copious amounts of makeup water. however with an inclosed system the same engine has no problem developing 15+ hp continuous without any issues save for replacement of the cheap oem head gasket with one supplied by the "gaskets to go" guy.
the efficiency is significantly improved at the higher temperatures and higher output levels.
back to bed, been sick for over a week now and its getting really old!
bob g
When you say all hell breaks loose, what exactly do you mean?
I can take a guess that you see some rapid cycling out into the expansion tank, perhaps even some bubbles?
If so, I will take a guess that you do NOT have a small bypass hole drilled in the thermostat, and the thermostat is not right at the water outlet from the cylinder? That or your thermostat is a little sticky(unusual). Your description indicate this to me.
If the thermostat is not exactly in the cylinder water(up a short length of pipe), the hot water must slowly exchange up the pipe to reach the thermal bulb that opens the thermostat. By the time the temp there reaches the opening temp, the temp below that alongside the cylinder may actually be much hotter, perhaps even starting to boil. As soon as the thermostat cracks, this super hot water flows by the bulb jerking the thermostat to wide open, maybe even allowing steam to flash and all this roars up the pipe to the radiator untill temps/flows stabelize.
I need a new HG on mine also. The factory one weeps coolant untill it reaches full op temp...
In a cooling system with a circulating pump, the bypass hole is not so important as the pump circulates the heat around better so it reaches the thermostat in a timely matter and it opens smoothly to modulate the flow. In a thermosiphon system, the bypass hole drilled in the thermostat plate/disc is very important, as it allows water to start flowing past the thermostat bulb as soon as you start making heat in the engine. This steady flow allows the hot water to reach the thermost much faster, so it opens much more gently to modulate the flow, before the water around the cylinder reaches boiling...
Quote from: mobile_bob on August 14, 2014, 05:58:15 PM
no reason for the system to not be able to stand up to at least 10psi
if the gskt is leaking under very little pressure, replace it with a good gskt and double check
things like liner protrusion.
my testing has been on the 195's admittedly, however i can see no reason why an 1115 would be any different in its capability.
i run a 7lb cap in order to run between 205 and 214F without issues.
the cylinder liner orings can surely handle the pressure in my opinion.
as for thermosiphon systems, i am not sure having a pressurized system would have a detrimental effect on its operation.
Interesting. I didn't realize that. Looking back, I probably should have changed he HG when I had it down and opened up. If I had known that the HG gasket from the "gaskets to go" guy. would have allowed me to safely run pressurized I may have done it. The "gaskets to go" guy. could not provide the gasket until I had mine out so he could get it's dimensions. I though it strange he didn't already have the info to make one. I didn't want to open it up without a gasket in hand.
Quote from: mobile_bob on August 14, 2014, 05:58:15 PM
thermosiphon certainly has its place, however the 1115 really lends itself to a radiator/pressurized system and a coolant pump. efficiency goes up with coolant temperature in my experience, and once you get over about 195 relying on thermosyphon can be problematic, at least in my opinion.
Eventually I may have to back track and consider this. We'll see. The guy that built this didn't do it and I didn't want to make any changes I wasn't sure about until I got it back up.
Quote from: mobile_bob on August 14, 2014, 05:58:15 PM
another point worth mentioning, the engine being of horizontal design, makes it a bit more difficult to get sufficient circulation via thermosiphon through the cylinder head, the cyl head temps will be quite a bit higher than that which is measured in the main part of the block. it is not unusual to see temperatures in the 240d F range in the cylinder head. at these temperatures air bubbles are likely to form in copious amounts, these bubbles can cause issue with thermosiphoning. this is the primary reason the engine's are rated so conservatively because you can't get much more power out with an antiquated cooling system design (read that thermosiphon)
as an example the 195 is rated at ~12hp continuous, with thermosiphon and you can push it to ~13 for a 1 hour rating owing to the need to add copious amounts of makeup water. however with an inclosed system the same engine has no problem developing 15+ hp continuous without any issues save for replacement of the cheap oem head gasket with one supplied by the "gaskets to go" guy.
the efficiency is significantly improved at the higher temperatures and higher output levels.
back to bed, been sick for over a week now and its getting really old!
More good info, thanks and I hope your feeling better.
Mark
Quote from: Ronmar on August 14, 2014, 06:10:27 PM
When you say all hell breaks loose, what exactly do you mean?
I can take a guess that you see some rapid cycling out into the expansion tank, perhaps even some bubbles?
Actually it's just rapid cycling in and out of the rad. Sort of like it had an orgasm. A tremendous amount of cycling through the rad takes place in a few seconds then calms down. Like I said earlier, I have about 4 inches of clear hose on both in and out of the rad. I can clearly see what's going in and out of the rad. The bubbles are pretty much gone now but yes still some during those few seconds after the ts opens up.
Quote from: Ronmar on August 14, 2014, 06:10:27 PM
If so, I will take a guess that you do NOT have a small bypass hole drilled in the thermostat, and the thermostat is not right at the water outlet from the cylinder? That or your thermostat is a little sticky(unusual). Your description indicate this to me.
If the thermostat is not exactly in the cylinder water(up a short length of pipe), the hot water must slowly exchange up the pipe to reach the thermal bulb that opens the thermostat. By the time the temp there reaches the opening temp, the temp below that alongside the cylinder may actually be much hotter, perhaps even starting to boil. As soon as the thermostat cracks, this super hot water flows by the bulb jerking the thermostat to wide open, maybe even allowing steam to flash and all this roars up the pipe to the radiator untill temps/flows stabelize.
Right again. I do NOT have a bypass hole drilled in the thermostat. The ts is right on the plate at water level though.
http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/dmarkh/media/DSC03701_zpsc09fb578.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Quote from: Ronmar on August 14, 2014, 06:10:27 PM
I need a new HG on mine also. The factory one weeps coolant untill it reaches full op temp...
In a cooling system with a circulating pump, the bypass hole is not so important as the pump circulates the heat around better so it reaches the thermostat in a timely matter and it opens smoothly to modulate the flow. In a thermosiphon system, the bypass hole drilled in the thermostat plate/disc is very important, as it allows water to start flowing past the thermostat bulb as soon as you start making heat in the engine. This steady flow allows the hot water to reach the thermost much faster, so it opens much more gently to modulate the flow, before the water around the cylinder reaches boiling...
As I told bob, I may have to back track and make some changes. If/when I do, I'll drill me a hole.
The only way I seem to be able to reach the 200-215 temps is to block off the rad from the wind. I'm in central FL and it is HOT here too. I've only had a 10-12 amp load on it. I'm planning to hook it to the house on Sunday for the day. I'm hoping a load on it will get me in that range. I suppose it's a normal thing to get a 6 pack and sit by the gen all day? She thinks I'm nuts.
Mark
Bob, I sure hope you dont have the same crap that I and all of my family had. From May 1 to mid July I went from chest congestion to sinus to flue like symptoms to diarrhea on a 5 day cycle over and over agin and that got REAL old let me tell ya.
Bob has vastly more time with these engines than I do so listen carefully when he speaks. My "powermart" 1115 leaked with no pressure as delivered and still weeps a bit with the G-to-go replacements gasket which it is on #2 of those. I have model 180, 190, 192 and 195 Chanfa branded engines with factory radiators and all have pressure caps and dont leak. Due to the flow problems Bob spoke about I have to wonder about the long term viability of running one of these engines under such load that the system must be pressurized to keep the coolant from boillin? No science involved , just opinion. What Bob spoke about in power vs operating time rings true when a person studies the ratings of the more reliable builders. These engines will literally pull their own guts out if the rack limiter is set to allow it and the operator is willing to let them do it. All of the better builders rate them at some HP continuous and another higher HP for intermittent loadings. My 1115 Laidong engine is rated much more conservatively than the "Powermart" branded engine on my stand by set in spite of the fact that it is of superior build quality and the Laidong also has a circulating pump in order to insure coolin at the rated loads. The rack limiter on the Powermart engine was backed all the way out and it has something like a 24 HP rating and would blow coal until I backed it down. Meanwhile the Laidong is rated at 20 HP and will not blow smoke except under acceleration. Laidong is a ISO 9001 builder so claims of HP and durability must be backed up with something other than a decal. other brands? you take your chances.
Sorry If I am rambling here, but a subject I like to talk about. The China horizontals are good engines but most of them have pump delivery settings that are just plain insane for continuous duty. If your going to put a lot of hours on the engine my experience is that that if you can see even a hint of smoke that you have much more load than is healthy over the long term,, regardless of the ID plate rating and how many KW your are pulling.
Quote from: playdiesel on August 15, 2014, 04:39:57 AM
The China horizontals are good engines but most of them have pump delivery settings that are just plain insane for continuous duty. If your going to put a lot of hours on the engine my experience is that that if you can see even a hint of smoke that you have much more load than is healthy over the long term,, regardless of the ID plate rating and how many KW your are pulling.
I'll pay special attention to the smoke on Sunday. I've only seen it once and that was the very first time I started it after bringing home. It was my first time throttling up and I didn't know yet the feel of the throttle. I've noticed that with no load, running at 240volt and 60hz, I have all kinds of throttle left.
Mark
Quote from: playdiesel on August 15, 2014, 04:39:57 AM
Bob has vastly more time with these engines than I do so listen carefully when he speaks. My "powermart" 1115 leaked with no pressure as delivered and still weeps a bit with the G-to-go replacements gasket which it is on #2 of those. I have model 180, 190, 192 and 195 Chanfa branded engines with factory radiators and all have pressure caps and dont leak. Due to the flow problems Bob spoke about I have to wonder about the long term viability of running one of these engines under such load that the system must be pressurized to keep the coolant from boillin? No science involved , just opinion. What Bob spoke about in power vs operating time rings true when a person studies the ratings of the more reliable builders. These engines will literally pull their own guts out if the rack limiter is set to allow it and the operator is willing to let them do it. All of the better builders rate them at some HP continuous and another higher HP for intermittent loadings. My 1115 Laidong engine is rated much more conservatively than the "Powermart" branded engine on my stand by set in spite of the fact that it is of superior build quality and the Laidong also has a circulating pump in order to insure coolin at the rated loads. The rack limiter on the Powermart engine was backed all the way out and it has something like a 24 HP rating and would blow coal until I backed it down. Meanwhile the Laidong is rated at 20 HP and will not blow smoke except under acceleration. Laidong is a ISO 9001 builder so claims of HP and durability must be backed up with something other than a decal. other brands? you take your chances.
What kind of 1115 have I got?
http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/dmarkh/media/DSC03754_zpsc3ece064.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Mark
Quote from: dmarkh on August 15, 2014, 05:30:49 AM
What kind of 1115 have I got?
http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/dmarkh/media/DSC03754_zpsc3ece064.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Mark
I think?,,, you have what most people call a genuine "Changfa"
My "Powermart" 1115 engine is a clone of that one, the photo copied manual even says Changfa on the cover, LOL. Dont have any pictures of it handy. Do have a video of the 1115 Laidong, notice it is sitting on a little rubber tired cart and running smooth. Quality speaking they are a cadillac.
That does indeed look like a genuine changfa by the label. Mine is also a clone, changchi and I am still running the installed box radiator in place of the hopper.
Keep an eye on those clear lines you are running, especially the one on the upper radiator. They get pretty rubbery when exposed to high temperature.
Nice group on youyr target/airflow block!
I have a little Air cooled Horozontal China Diesel and it's by far my favourite engine, even over the lister clone.
The thing is rated at 3.5 HP but leaves the 6 HP verticals and a Hatz rated at 5 HP for dead. I can drop way more on my generator with that engine than any other before it even looks like smoking. Haven't tested it on the Roid, still have to get that thing to run like an engine not a Jackhammer before I hook it up to anything.
Only horozontal I have but it sure has endeared the type to me.
Well, I hooked it up to the house Sunday morning. I haven't got my permanent hookup in place yet so I just reinstalled my original 30 amp inlet plug I previously had for my little 7500KW generator before the mains panel was replaced. The 30 amp breaker I used was NOT braided wire friendly and I could not get all the wire in the breaker.
With the original panel, breaker, and 30 amp inlet, I was able to run my AC with the 7500KW gen. The AC is on the other side of the house too. I could even run a few lights and the AC would cycle without too much hurt on the gen. It certainly felt it but kept right on going.
The ST-10 would not start the AC. I did have a few lights on. 2 frigges and a deep freeze. I was only drawing about 15 amps at the time. The 1115 spit smoke for about 5 seconds until the AC gave up. I sure expected it to be able to handle the AC even on the other side of the house. The AC is a 2.5 ton. It is only 4 years old. So it's fairly modern. The compressor is a single stage but the air handler is a 3 stage. The compressor starts then the blower steps through it's speeds about 30 seconds per stage.
I hope the problem is just that inlet breaker connection. Shouldn't this thing be able to handle this AC fairly easily? Again my 7500KW gen seemed to be able to, but I did not hook it to the same inlet on Sunday to verify. May I'll have to. Or maybe I'll just go get a proper breaker.
Back on subject, While I had it on the house, AC breaker off, It certainly does get hotter quicker with a load. Without blocking off the rad it will easily reach the desired temps. My fans were not cycling at the right temps though. On at 211 and off at 193. And every time they shut off the temp even went down further. So far down the TS would close. So I thought I would try removing the thermal compound between the block and temp switch. So I shut it down and cleaned it all off and fired it back up. Then, for the first time for me, this thing was NOT going to siphon. At about 210d I felt the need to shut it down. I'm pretty sure the TS was open but not positive.
Could this be because I have no hole drilled in the TS?
Mark
Unless the thermostat is stuck, it should thermosiphon... The laws of physics are not that easilly circumvented:) You must have a temp difference to thermosyphon, heat input on the engine side to lower the density and cause the fluid to rise AND cooling on the radiator side to increase the density to cause that fluid to want to fall. Think of it like a continous loop of rope run up and over a pully. Helium ballons on one side that shift to water balloons on the other keep the rope in motion IF the rad was heat saturated(helium baloons on both sides), that might delay the flow startup untill things warm/cool.
Are you sure the water levels are good, particularly in the upper rad tank? The upper pipe into the rad must be completely submerged...
My 1115 would at times try to siphon backwards and other times not go either way and just sit there and get hot. Drove me crazy until I sat and thought about it a bit. Then l I extended the rerun line down below the plate about 2" and all those troubles ended.
I dont run a thermostat and I just let the thermostat on the fan control tend to the engine temps. It will come up to temp and turn the fan on in about 10-15 minutes depending on load and ambient temp. My connections are further apart on the plate than yours being more or less in the corners with the hot exit pipe being the one closest to the head. Both of my ST heads will deliver quite a bit over rated capacity for a second or two to start motor loads. Mine is a 15KW but it effortlessly starts our whole house A/C when everything else the ole woman can turn on is running. We don't have to mange loads at all when on the generator but stove and water heater are gas.
Oh crap, I forgot what type engine we were dealing with here... Playdiesel brings up an excellent point. How far down into the cylinder does your return pipe extend? They need to be at different levels, the greater the distance the return pipe extends down into the cylinder the better. If they are near the same height, the hot water dosn't know which one to go up. With things warm, turning on the radiator fan to cool the downside might help to kickstart the flow.
If your little 7.5KW set starts your AC, the ST-10 sure as hell should. Because of their spinning mass, the ST's usually excell at getting large inductive loads running. What voltage are you running out of the ST, and also how are you setting the frequency/RPM? Like you mentioned if you are having connection issues, a large slug of current pulled across a poor connection can cause a real voltage drop. Does your AC have a junction box where you can sample the voltage? If you can monitor it at the AC you can compare the starting voltage drop between commercial, the 7.5 and the ST-10. This might shed some light on the situation.
Quote from: Ronmar on August 18, 2014, 10:07:59 PM
Oh crap, I forgot what type engine we were dealing with here... Playdiesel brings up an excellent point. How far down into the cylinder does your return pipe extend? They need to be at different levels, the greater the distance the return pipe extends down into the cylinder the better. If they are near the same height, the hot water dosn't know which one to go up. With things warm, turning on the radiator fan to cool the downside might help to kickstart the flow.
There was plenty of water at the top of the rad. Not a good picture but this is what I saw when I took it apart shortly after bringing it home. The return pipe extends down 4-5 inches. Can't tell by the pic but It still has the heat shrink around it too. I'm pretty sure this plate was purchased from UtterPower by the original owner. Actually I suspect the original owner frequented this forum too. That's another subject though. I actually did turn on the fans to see if it would help. Maybe I just panicked when I saw the 215 degree temp with no siphon and just didn't give it enough time? The missing "hole" in the TS was my first thought? Seems like a manual valve of some sort might be better than a TS? Maybe even what playdiesel does and run without one all together. At least one would know the state of things.
http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/dmarkh/media/DSC03635_zps91763d6c.jpg.html?sort=2&o=74
Quote from: Ronmar on August 18, 2014, 10:07:59 PM
If your little 7.5KW set starts your AC, the ST-10 sure as hell should. Because of their spinning mass, the ST's usually excell at getting large inductive loads running. What voltage are you running out of the ST, and also how are you setting the frequency/RPM? Like you mentioned if you are having connection issues, a large slug of current pulled across a poor connection can cause a real voltage drop. Does your AC have a junction box where you can sample the voltage? If you can monitor it at the AC you can compare the starting voltage drop between commercial, the 7.5 and the ST-10. This might shed some light on the situation.
I set the engine speed so that I'm at 60-62 Hz. Then I adjust the pot, that was originally on the dog house, so that the voltage is 240-245. I have not yet verified whether or not I have a balancing issue between the 2 120 legs. I was only drawing around 15 amps when the AC tried to start. I suppose if one leg was drawing that 15 amps, it could cause this? I'll have to verify all this this weekend. I installed 3 donuts in the internal breaker box so I could monitor the total amps and amps from each 120 leg.
I have a junction box out by the compressor. I will have to do some trouble shooting this weekend. First thing will be to insure that connection is proper. Just looking at it gives me the creeps. I actually have an additional 30 amp inlet out by the compressor. I put it there just in case the 7.5 couldn't start it from the other side of the house.
While I had this thing down, I removed the dog house and put a "western" style 70 amp rectifier in. Of coarse you know that that process required the splicing of the wires coming out of the head to reach my internal breaker box. I paid special attention there. I used copper barrel crimps, then soldered them using a small torch. So my fingers are crossed that this isn't my problem.
Thanks again guys for the input. It will be Saturday before I go further. It's to be a busy week.
Mark
It should work OK with a thermostat once you get things sorted out, I say that only because a lot of guys have run them and are happy with the set up, not from any personal experience ;)
My set up didn't happen by the initial thoughts and design, actually the first go was a joke :D. It kinda evolved into something that works for me as I think most do? I am not off grid, the 1115/15KW set is stand by at this time but when I retire and am broke but have lots of time on my hands the plan is to run some waste /recycled fuels. One of the things I found early on was the 1115 was not the smoothest in operation and tended to shake apart what was attached to it and for that matter what it was attached to. I figured that a thermostat was easy enough added if and when it proved necessary, if it wasn't necessary it was one less thing to be shaken apart. As it exists now my set up warms quickly enough (for me) without a 'stat and very nicely regulates itself. If the temps are under 60 and the wife doesn't have the entire house turned on the fan never runs and the block temps run 180-200. On hot days or when the A/C is on it needs the fan and then the temp a bit hotter and spread is both a bit wider.
A somewhat fuzzy pic of my setup as it exists today.
(http://oi49.tinypic.com/4lro8z.jpg)
Quote from: mobile_bob on August 14, 2014, 05:58:15 PM
no reason for the system to not be able to stand up to at least 10psi
if the gskt is leaking under very little pressure, replace it with a good gskt and double check
things like liner protrusion.
my testing has been on the 195's admittedly, however i can see no reason why an 1115 would be any different in its capability.
i run a 7lb cap in order to run between 205 and 214F without issues.
the cylinder liner orings can surely handle the pressure in my opinion.
as for thermosiphon systems, i am not sure having a pressurized system would have a detrimental effect on its operation.
thermosiphon certainly has its place, however the 1115 really lends itself to a radiator/pressurized system and a coolant pump. efficiency goes up with coolant temperature in my experience, and once you get over about 195 relying on thermosyphon can be problematic, at least in my opinion.
another point worth mentioning, the engine being of horizontal design, makes it a bit more difficult to get sufficient circulation via thermosiphon through the cylinder head, the cyl head temps will be quite a bit higher than that which is measured in the main part of the block. it is not unusual to see temperatures in the 240d F range in the cylinder head. at these temperatures air bubbles are likely to form in copious amounts, these bubbles can cause issue with thermosiphoning. this is the primary reason the engine's are rated so conservatively because you can't get much more power out with an antiquated cooling system design (read that thermosiphon)
as an example the 195 is rated at ~12hp continuous, with thermosiphon and you can push it to ~13 for a 1 hour rating owing to the need to add copious amounts of makeup water. however with an inclosed system the same engine has no problem developing 15+ hp continuous without any issues save for replacement of the cheap oem head gasket with one supplied by the "gaskets to go" guy.
the efficiency is significantly improved at the higher temperatures and higher output levels.
back to bed, been sick for over a week now and its getting really old!
bob g
Hi Bob. Hope your feeling better. I have been reading and re-reading this and another post by you at:
http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=3159.msg35409#msg35409
I'm more and more intrigued by this setup. And from what I can tell all I would need is the water pump you describe in the above link, a new "less than 10lb" radiator cap, block off the cool side port on my plate, and a little plumbing. Everything else required is already installed on this unit. My rad fans are driven by a 12 volt power supply. The temp sensor switch is an AC switch driving an AC to AC relay that turns on the power supply. I would have to drive the pump from the battery and not that power supply so I would have to also get the battery charger installed, which I was going to do anyway.
I just have a couple of questions.
Would you hesitate doing this without changing the head gasket first?
When the TS is not opened and the pump is running, what happens? Does there need to be some sort of bypass plumbed in? Do you still drill a hole in the TS?
Thanks
Mark
Quote from: playdiesel on August 19, 2014, 05:57:24 AM
It should work OK with a thermostat once you get things sorted out, I say that only because a lot of guys have run them and are happy with the set up, not from any personal experience ;)
My set up didn't happen by the initial thoughts and design, actually the first go was a joke :D. It kinda evolved into something that works for me as I think most do? I am not off grid, the 1115/15KW set is stand by at this time but when I retire and am broke but have lots of time on my hands the plan is to run some waste /recycled fuels. One of the things I found early on was the 1115 was not the smoothest in operation and tended to shake apart what was attached to it and for that matter what it was attached to. I figured that a thermostat was easy enough added if and when it proved necessary, if it wasn't necessary it was one less thing to be shaken apart. As it exists now my set up warms quickly enough (for me) without a 'stat and very nicely regulates itself. If the temps are under 60 and the wife doesn't have the entire house turned on the fan never runs and the block temps run 180-200. On hot days or when the A/C is on it needs the fan and then the temp a bit hotter and spread is both a bit wider.
A somewhat fuzzy pic of my setup as it exists today.
(http://oi49.tinypic.com/4lro8z.jpg)
The original owner of this thing set it up for WVO. When I picked it up he had 20 5 gallon cans full of WVO setting in his garage. The wife wouldn't let me take them. The fuel filter has a heater built in but a found no electrical connection to it.
http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/dmarkh/media/DSC03562_zpse2074c53.jpg.html?sort=2&o=7
So far I've found that the trailer this sits on seems to help but yes that thing is a shaker. I've also found that my little 7.5KW is louder than the 1115. That of coarse is running the 1115 with the doors closed and exhaust fan running. The gaps in the trailer bed allow for quite a bit of air flow so I can and will run it with the doors closed. The door in front of the st-10 remains cracked though. When I open all the doors you can no longer even hear the 7.5 running right next to it.
I had seen pics of your setup before while searching for info. nice..
Mark
Hold it right there dude. :P running the exhaust into the shack instead of piping the exhaust out? Sorry but I just have to ask why would you do something so incredibly stupid ? ???
Quote from: buickanddeere on August 19, 2014, 12:41:32 PM
Hold it right there dude. :P running the exhaust into the shack instead of piping the exhaust out? Sorry but I just have to ask why would you do something so incredibly stupid ? ???
My engine exhaust runs out the bottom of the trailer into an automotive tail pipe/muffler. I was talking about exhausting the air inside the enclosure with an exhaust fan. Sorry for the confusion.
mark
day 13 and counting of this dreadful "hooteria" and i thought i would check in.
went to the doc and got some antibiotics, and had the wife checked out, she is on the edge
of getting pneumonia from this crap... so i got to watch her closely over the next several days.
now the stepson is also showing signs of the same crap! damn!
all this in august? wth?
anyway let me answer a couple questions that the OP presented of late
1. i would replace the head gasket at your earliest convenience. if it is a small seep i would not let that stop me from modifying to a water pump and pressurized system.
2. yes i drill a ~1/16" hole in the outer flange of the Tstat, and have also used an 1/8" hole with a small cotter pin inserted to reduce the leakage and to also keep the hole clear (its wriggling around keeps corrosion from clogging the hole.
with the pump working it allows some water to bypass the Tstat, reduces the pressure on the pump somewhat and aids in circulation around the Tstat bulb.
3. i use the little bosch auxilliary heater pumps typical of VW, mercedes, audi and other german cars and am convinced even though they are quite small they have enough capacity to keep up with at least 20hp.
i connect the pump so that it pushes coolant into the block up through the drain cock port, and i take the hot water off the top of the engine plate via a honda thermostat housing. from there to a small car radiator which has an electric fan and a thermal switch that turns on at about 214F and off at about 205F.
i use a 195F tstat
the theory of operation is as follows
the engine starts and the thermostat cycles until the engine temp exceeds the 195F rating, whereafter it stays fully open and the fan controls the temperature from then on maintaining between 205 and 214F
the cylinder head runs about 240F at these temperatures and at full load, which i set at 8kwe
the antifreeze is 50/50 mix
under full load operation, the fan will cycle on and off at approx 30 seconds on, 90 seconds off
in ~70F ambient temperatures. this tells me there is ample cooling capacity for either more hp or higher ambient temps, both.
as for the st10 and your 2.5 ton ac
i would +1 for Ronmar's comments
there should be no reason this setup shouldn't startup that load
apparently there is a voltage drop or something else going on here.
bob g
Quote from: dmarkh on August 19, 2014, 12:48:23 PM
Quote from: buickanddeere on August 19, 2014, 12:41:32 PM
Hold it right there dude. :P running the exhaust into the shack instead of piping the exhaust out? Sorry but I just have to ask why would you do something so incredibly stupid ? ???
My engine exhaust runs out the bottom of the trailer into an automotive tail pipe/muffler. I was talking about exhausting the air inside the enclosure with an exhaust fan. Sorry for the confusion.
mark
I see a picture of an exhaust stack inside a generator shack ?
Quote from: buickanddeere on August 19, 2014, 09:17:48 PM
I see a picture of an exhaust stack inside a generator shack ?
You must be looking at the intake?
Quote from: buickanddeere on August 19, 2014, 09:17:48 PM
I see a picture of an exhaust stack inside a generator shack ?
The picture is my set,
If I had stepped back 2" when I took that pic you could see the door jam for one of two 5 foot doors on the front of the shed that are kept wide open when the set is being used. The muffler is about 12" from one of the doors when closed. The eves of the shed are also opened up when it runs. That combined with the breezes created by the ST fan, the flywheel, belts and cooling fan the engine is little different than being outside. A known problem with the China engines is breaking of the exhaust elbows or the four flimsy bolts that attach it to the head after some home brewed exhaust system is hung on it. I am not real smart, but far from stupid, kinda in between actually.
Quote from: playdiesel on August 20, 2014, 05:53:37 AM
Quote from: buickanddeere on August 19, 2014, 09:17:48 PM
I see a picture of an exhaust stack inside a generator shack ?
The picture is my set,
Ah, that clears that up.
Mark
Quote from: playdiesel on August 20, 2014, 05:53:37 AM
Quote from: buickanddeere on August 19, 2014, 09:17:48 PM
I see a picture of an exhaust stack inside a generator shack ?
The picture is my set,
If I had stepped back 2" when I took that pic you could see the door jam for one of two 5 foot doors on the front of the shed that are kept wide open when the set is being used. The muffler is about 12" from one of the doors when closed. The eves of the shed are also opened up when it runs. That combined with the breezes created by the ST fan, the flywheel, belts and cooling fan the engine is little different than being outside. A known problem with the China engines is breaking of the exhaust elbows or the four flimsy bolts that attach it to the head after some home brewed exhaust system is hung on it. I am not real smart, but far from stupid, kinda in between actually.
That is better than it looks but............... I've spent enough time using a Draeger at work to sample CO2, CO, O2, LEL, H2S etc. Knowing that the affinity between hemoglobin and carbon monoxide is approximately 230 times stronger than the affinity between hemoglobin and oxygen so hemoglobin binds to carbon monoxide in preference to oxygen.
I've found dangerous levels of CO around diesels and gas turbines in ventilated buildings and outside of the same buildings.
The adverse feelings after extended driving and worse yet being stuck in traffic. Is very often unrecognized CO poisoning.
Exposure to >25ppm causes problem in healthy non smoking adults. Exposure to 500ppm, which still isn't very much and you are buzzard bait in a few hours. A few breaths at 10,000+ppm which is 1+% and you will be dead by the time you hit the floor.
Sorry but there there just isnt a problem to deal with here other than a wrong conclusion based upon a misleading picture and your assumptions. There is a reason the gen set was placed 75' down wind from the house in its own little shed,,, I don't live in there. A person opens the doors and eves, starts the set and leaves, then returns to shut it down. Once a month to test it and whenever the power is out,,
??? gesh ???
Must work for OSHA.
Ron.
Quote from: vdubnut62 on August 21, 2014, 12:43:02 PM
Must work for OSHA.
Ron.
The rules are there because a long line of fools ignorant of the laws of physics killing themselves or others. Plus they were more intent on getting the job done the quickest, easiest and fastest way taking priority over the proper way.
Like it or not CO is toxic.
You seem to think you are too tough to be affected by CO ?
It appears that you have never pulled up to the scene and found several coworkers or family members all laying dead in the same tank, pit, sump , camper trailer or room?
From what I've been taught at the fire dpt, repeated exposure to CO will cause hardening of the arteries. So even if it doesn't kill you right away, it's the gift that keeps on giving.
Quote from: buickanddeere on August 21, 2014, 10:16:36 PM
Quote from: vdubnut62 on August 21, 2014, 12:43:02 PM
Must work for OSHA.
Ron.
The rules are there because a long line of fools ignorant of the laws of physics killing themselves or others. Plus they were more intent on getting the job done the quickest, easiest and fastest way taking priority over the proper way.
Like it or not CO is toxic.
You seem to think you are too tough to be affected by CO ?
It appears that you have never pulled up to the scene and found several coworkers or family members all laying dead in the same tank, pit, sump , camper trailer or room?
You Sir know nothing at all about me, my experience, upbringing, education, financial status or personality. That is the second time you have called me a fool. You also intimated on
another post that I am a "Bubba" and are unwilling to spend the money to do things "your" correct way. And no, it is a fatal mistake to consider one's "too tough to be affected by CO".
You have no idea what systems I now have in place or plan to implement in the future.
I was under the impression that we are all here to learn from each other and the collective minds contained here in these discussion groups.
I do not have the time nor the inclination to re-learn the childish name calling that I outgrew in grade school. I expected you to have at least a modest sense of humor, it seems that I have made a mistake.
Ron
If you are not taking stringent control of exhaust gasses, then sadly yes. You would be a foolish Bubba.
So stringent control of exhaust gasses on an engine running out in the open(or a shed with roof and door panels opened) would be acomplished how? I don't think anyone here will disregard the need for adequate air exchange...
You two need to kick it down a notch or two and get back onto the topic of this thread!
The exhaust gases shall be routed in a manner that with no regard to wind direction or windows/doors being open or closed. Human habitation in or around the structure and the ICE is not exposed to over 25ppm of CO.
Back on topic, I'm sure I've corrected my problem with not being able to drive the 2.5 ton AC. Every connection in the inlet box and to the panel was bad. But as I was about to hook it up, to prove it to myself, I noticed once again, for the second time now, I did not have a thermalsyphon going. Surley the TS had opened by then. The temp was 214 so I gently just shut it down. I ordered a pump and 6lb rad cap on friday and should have it all today. I'm going to go ahead and plumb it in and do as bob suggested and put at least one 1/8" hole in the TS with a cotter pin in it. I may get it done this week. I sure hope that bosch pump can push the water up from the bottom of the cyl and then that 4 ft of hose coming out the plate up to the rad?
Mark
Thermosyphon requires two different densities of coolant to operate.
How are the rad inlet and outlets orientated?
Hot coolant to the rad to be taken from as high as possible on the engine's water jacket.
Cooler return coolant from the rad must be routed as low as possible into the engine's water jacket.
There are "high flow" stats with a larger valve.
Nobody knows why but every now and again somebody does install a stat upside down.
Quote from: dmarkh on August 25, 2014, 09:03:37 AM
Back on topic, I'm sure I've corrected my problem with not being able to drive the 2.5 ton AC. Every connection in the inlet box and to the panel was bad. But as I was about to hook it up, to prove it to myself, I noticed once again, for the second time now, I did not have a thermalsyphon going. Surley the TS had opened by then. The temp was 214 so I gently just shut it down. I ordered a pump and 6lb rad cap on friday and should have it all today. I'm going to go ahead and plumb it in and do as bob suggested and put at least one 1/8" hole in the TS with a cotter pin in it. I may get it done this week. I sure hope that bosch pump can push the water up from the bottom of the cyl and then that 4 ft of hose coming out the plate up to the rad?
Mark
I got the pump yesterday. It is much smaller than I thought it would be. I ran some water through it last night and was pleasantly surprised at how much water it will move. And it appears that even if the pump breaks/stops it would not prevent a thermal siphon from taking place. (if one were possible to begin with)
Even though I am going to add this pump, I _think_ I may now know what my siphon problem may have been. First as I've already said my TS has no holes drilled in it. That's important. Second, and I just thought about this last night, when I had the plate off and was flushing it all out, I think I screwed up again by making my gasket with additional material on the divider plate between the hot output side and the cool input side. This is probably trapping hot water on the cool side hindering the tube from staying as cool as it should be. I wondered why the tube had heat shrink around it but know now it is to help with the siphon. So it was all probably self induced. When I have it down adding the pump I will be removing that part of the gasket so there will be flow possible. Probably not important any longer with the pump there but I might as well do it.
Does anyone know the drain petcock thread size. I've had it out many times now but never took note. It would be nice to have all the parts needed before I start this. Is it NPT or is going to be some strange metric thing?
Thanks
Mark
The drain cock threads on the engines I have fooled with are all 1/4"or 3/8 BSPT or British Standard Pipe Tapered. To my knowledge there is no metric "pipe thread" as we know it. The Europeans used the British system of pipe threads by and large however there are many different metric pattern tubing threads.
Most but not all of the BSP threads are one thread per inch different than the American standard version, bastards >:(
What this means when a person tries to mix and match them they start together OK, but get tight kind of quick, you put a wrench on the fitting to tighten it and it feels a bit funny but seems to be tightening OK. Then you put the joint under just a small amount of pressure and it leaks no matter how much you tighten it.
For anything under medium to high pressure you simply cannot mix and match. McMaster Carr has both adapters and fittings
For low head/pressure systems you have a few choices. If your not going to be taking the fitting in or out in the planned future clean everything up, mix up some JB weld and use it as thread dope, fixed. If that bothers you you can try regular thread dope but that hasn't worked for me. You can also run a regular US standard pipe tap into the hole if there is room but you take your chances with that. Too deep and the valve wont thread in far enough to seal and your back to JB Weld.
Are you thinking about returning the cool water to the drain cock? I have thought f that also but it would require that the hole be opened up to accept a larger pipe. Is there room in the casting for that? I have not explored it further.
Personally I would remove the thermostat and try it prior to using a pump. If it then thero's correctly at least you have a known point to work at. I have a gut feeling that your problems lie under the plate, not with the 'stat.
I have a couple of IH cub tractors. International Harvester decided back in the 40's that thermosiphon with no thermostat was good enough. The bottom hose has a dip in the middle,
and the top hose is larger than the bottom. It works perfectly. In fact I cut the grass every week or so with a 69 Cub Lo Boy, never had it to over heat even when the temps were near a hundred. It does get plenty hot though, and does not over cool IMO.
Ron.
Quote from: playdiesel on August 26, 2014, 10:46:55 AM
The drain cock threads on the engines I have fooled with are all 1/4"or 3/8 BSPT or British Standard Pipe Tapered.
It is for sure larger than 1/4. It even seems like it was larger than 3/8. I've had it out several times now, I just never thought I would need to know.
Quote from: playdiesel on August 26, 2014, 10:46:55 AM
Are you thinking about returning the cool water to the drain cock? I have thought f that also but it would require that the hole be opened up to accept a larger pipe. Is there room in the casting for that? I have not explored it further.
Personally I would remove the thermostat and try it prior to using a pump. If it then thero's correctly at least you have a known point to work at. I have a gut feeling that your problems lie under the plate, not with the 'stat.
Yes, I'm thinking of returning water to the drain port as Bob suggested above, for reasons he described. It seems easy enough. Like I said in my last post, I also believe the siphon problem is not the TS alone but certainly under that utterpower plate. I am going to fix that no matter what. I also want to run in that goldie-lox temp range of 200-215 so will be a pressure cap of 6lbs. I have already run this without a TS (stuck open when I got it) and I won't be doing that. It took 20-30 minutes to get to 200d.
Why do you think a 3/8 (minimum) hole won't be large enough for the pump? An awful lot of water can pass through a 3/8" hole.
Mark
the drain cock hole is 1/4 pipe thread, which will pass ~3/8" of water
with the bosch pump feeding return water from the bottom of the radiator the engine will have
ample cooling capacity.
iirc the little pump will move about 3-5 gallon per minute open flow, probably ~3 gallons min in this application.
pretty hard to heat that much water with anything less than about 25hp in my opinion, that is if you have sufficient radiator capacity (which is almost impossible have a problem with unless you are using some very small radiator and no fan)
my 195 holds a touch over 1 gallon of coolant in the system, i like this because it allows for fairly rapid warm up and i can apply full load to the engine in just a few minutes.
it might not seem that this system is enough flow capacity, however i would offer this
cummins made a series of 855cu/in engines back in the 80s and early 90's that made up to 400 hp and more that used 1" heater hoses for both the upper and lower radiator hoses! and the tstats too were smaller than those used in most cars, albeit they used two of them. the system was a reverse flow/low flow design that really worked well.
i figure if one can successfully cool 400hp with 1 inch hoses, surely we can expect no issues with 5/8" hose mounted over the one choke point which in this case is the 1/4 inch nipple assy. fitted to the drain cock opening.
one final thought
i like the idea of smaller capacities of coolant, it allows not only for faster warmup but perhaps more importantly a more stable coolant temperature once up to full load. by that i mean there is less thermal stress on the engine when the coolant reentering the engine is perhaps 190F and leaving the engine at around 210F as opposed to large thermosiphon tank systems where the return water might be considerably lower coming back from a 55 gallon drum.
besides i like a thermostat that once things are up to temp opens up and after settling down stays open. it just seems like the stat might last longer and present fewer problems.
anyways it works for me.
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on August 26, 2014, 03:08:44 PM
the drain cock hole is 1/4 pipe thread, which will pass ~3/8" of water
with the bosch pump feeding return water from the bottom of the radiator the engine will have
ample cooling capacity.
Is that BSPT (British Standard Pipe Tapered) or NTP?
Thanks
Mark
!/4" pipe is about 1/2" O.D.
3/8" Pipe is about 5/8"
A helpful chart
(https://7919f8b87d6982992d4d-0a0665afab3ea54109cd86a05126d9ac.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/ti_dimension_chart.gif)
the port on my 195's are all 1/4 NPT female
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on August 27, 2014, 02:58:09 PM
the port on my 195's are all 1/4 NPT female
bob g
I took it out last night and my 1115 is for sure 3/8 BSPT. I've got an BSPT to NTP adapter coming from MCMaster Carr. Will have it Friday.
Mark
Quote from: playdiesel on August 26, 2014, 10:46:55 AM
The drain cock threads on the engines I have fooled with are all 1/4"or 3/8 BSPT or British Standard Pipe Tapered. To my knowledge there is no metric "pipe thread" as we know it. The Europeans used the British system of pipe threads by and large however there are many different metric pattern tubing threads.
Most but not all of the BSP threads are one thread per inch different than the American standard version, bastards >:(
What this means when a person tries to mix and match them they start together OK, but get tight kind of quick, you put a wrench on the fitting to tighten it and it feels a bit funny but seems to be tightening OK. Then you put the joint under just a small amount of pressure and it leaks no matter how much you tighten it.
For anything under medium to high pressure you simply cannot mix and match. McMaster Carr has both adapters and fittings
For low head/pressure systems you have a few choices. If your not going to be taking the fitting in or out in the planned future clean everything up, mix up some JB weld and use it as thread dope, fixed. If that bothers you you can try regular thread dope but that hasn't worked for me. You can also run a regular US standard pipe tap into the hole if there is room but you take your chances with that. Too deep and the valve wont thread in far enough to seal and your back to JB Weld.
Are you thinking about returning the cool water to the drain cock? I have thought f that also but it would require that the hole be opened up to accept a larger pipe. Is there room in the casting for that? I have not explored it further.
Personally I would remove the thermostat and try it prior to using a pump. If it then thero's correctly at least you have a known point to work at. I have a gut feeling that your problems lie under the plate, not with the 'stat.
Drill and re-thread to obtain the desired threads. Cast iron is soft.
Quote from: playdiesel on August 27, 2014, 05:43:16 AM
!/4" pipe is about 1/2" O.D.
3/8" Pipe is about 5/8"
A helpful chart
(https://7919f8b87d6982992d4d-0a0665afab3ea54109cd86a05126d9ac.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/ti_dimension_chart.gif)
When working with pipe and tubing. Always make certain the I.D. is smaller than the O.D. or the hole will be on the outside of the pipe.
Quote from: buickanddeere on August 30, 2014, 11:35:18 AM
Quote from: playdiesel on August 27, 2014, 05:43:16 AM
!/4" pipe is about 1/2" O.D.
3/8" Pipe is about 5/8"
A helpful chart
(https://7919f8b87d6982992d4d-0a0665afab3ea54109cd86a05126d9ac.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/ti_dimension_chart.gif)
When working with pipe and tubing. Always make certain the I.D. is smaller than the O.D. or the hole will be on the outside of the pipe.
He He :P,
It's always the simple things............
Terry
Quote from: buickanddeere on August 30, 2014, 11:32:30 AM
Drill and re-thread to obtain the desired threads. Cast iron is soft.
The desired results are to be able to reinstall the original pet cock should I decide to revert to thermal siphon.
Mark
Got the pump plumbed in and a 1/16 hole with a cotter pin in the TS. Once the TS opened up (30 minutes or so no load) I hooked up to the house. Left the AC off at first. I was running 2 fridges, a deep freeze, a couple of ceiling fans on low, and the kitchen lights. I was drawing around 12 amps. I let this run for an hour or so. The coolant temp at the plate was steady at around 208. It was a hot sunny day and the rad was in the sun. It maintained that 208 for over an hour so the rad fans were not coming on at all. OK, I like 208. So I told her to go kick the AC on. The gen sputtered for 2 or 3 seconds with a little smoke, but the AC started. I was now drawing around 32 amps. No smoke. But not much wiggle room at 40 max.
Of coarse the temp started going up and when it reached 214 the rad fans kicked in. So far so good. However the fans didn't turn off until the temp was down to 194. And after that the temp went down another 4 degrees. The TS had closed. Crap.. It cycled just like that continuously while the AC was running.
The thermal switch for controlling the rad fans is a 200 on 185 off surface mounted on top of the plate. But it has a 20 degree swing, not 15 as advertised. I really need something with a 10 degree swing. Fortunately that switch was only $10. I guess ya get what ya pay for.
I see these adjustable temp fan controllers that say their swing is 10 degrees.
Derale 16759 Adjustable Fan Controller - sensor pushes into rad fins
Derale 16749 Adjustable Fan Controller - sensor 3/8 NTP into top plate
Is something like the above what I should be looking at or is there somewhere I can find a surface mount sensor with a real 10 degree swing?
Mark
Your idea of a more limited hysteresis on the fan thermostat is a good one.
Other considerations- limit fan power (different fan, dropping resistor, variable supply, clip blades on existing fan), limit water flow via ball valve, limit radiator area by masking some off.
Why would you mount the thermal switch on the blockoff plate and not on the radiator?? ??? Or did I just completely misunderstand/
Ron
Quote from: vdubnut62 on September 01, 2014, 06:38:24 PM
Why would you mount the thermal switch on the blockoff plate and not on the radiator?? ??? Or did I just completely misunderstand/
Ron
There was room for it there and the rad I have has no port for one.
Mark
Quote from: dmarkh on September 02, 2014, 02:01:57 AM
Quote from: vdubnut62 on September 01, 2014, 06:38:24 PM
Why would you mount the thermal switch on the blockoff plate and not on the radiator?? ??? Or did I just completely misunderstand/
Ron
There was room for it there and the rad I have has no port for one.
Mark
OK. Got it, but I would try some sort of workaround to get my sensor on the rad tank cool side, but that is just me. It would mitigate some of the temp swing.
Ron.
Quote from: vdubnut62 on September 02, 2014, 12:09:22 PM
OK. Got it, but I would try some sort of workaround to get my sensor on the rad tank cool side, but that is just me. It would mitigate some of the temp swing.
Ron.
Ya, I bet that just might prevent that extra 4-5 degree drop after the fans stop. And actually that extra drop is what shuts off the TS. No way to move that sensor there though. It's a surface mount sensor that I had to block tap the plate for. I think I'm gonna just spend the $50 on that Derale 16749 Adjustable Fan Controller kit and install its 3/8" NPT switch inline the hose from the plate to the top of the rad. I found a $6.00 hose adapter for it that I'll have to re-tap from 1/8" to 3/8" but I think I would rather do that than tap a 3/8" in the block off plate. I'm hoping their 10 degree swing is as advertised. Or at worst 15 degrees.
Or like you say maybe even put the sensor inline the hose on the cool side of the rad. Since it is "adjustable" I guess it would work either place. I've been reading some on that subject. The opinions are 50/50. I'll have to think about that one and maybe read some more. I think if the 10 degree swing is as advertised, I'll be OK either way. I'll just need to adjust it so that it comes on when the temp at the block off plate is 215. That's where my temp gauge sending unit is.
Thanks
mark
Sorry it took so long to report back on my status. I've plumbed in the Bosch water pump and the rad return into the drain petcock. I installed a new drain petcock down low near the pump. And I installed that Derale 16749 Adjustable Fan Controller with the sensor installed inline the hose from the plate to the hot side of the rad. I used one of those $6.00 inline adapters from epay made just for this. I only had to retap the 1/4 NPT to 3/8 NPT for the sensor. I blocked off the old rad return side at the plate so that I could easily go back and forth between the Bosch water pump and thermal siphon by installing another valve if I wanted to. We'll see. So far so good though. My rad fans come on at 214, run for about 60 seconds, then off at 204 and stay off for 3-4 minutes, and the temp never drops below 200 so the TS stays open now. Perfect. That Bosch pump motor gets pretty hot though. I suppose that's normal but I put a little fan on it anyway.
I've only run the house for about 8hrs straight and that was through my old 30 amp hookup. That was running just the essentials including some lights, the TV of coarse, and the AC. Drawing max of around 32 amps. (ya I know that is just a little high for a 30 amp hookup). I don't yet have the 50amp hookup in place yet. The gen did great except the wifey complained about the flicker in the lights. Didn't bother me. I may have to do something about that but we'll see. It was obvious when the AC would kick on. I get about 2-3 seconds of smoke and a short growl when it does. Maybe that 50 amp hookup will help there??? I got me one of these brand new Reliance Nema 14-50FP receptacles to install into a normal RV outlet box:
http://www.steadypower.com/products.php?product=Reliance-1450FP-Flanged-Inlet-%2850A%2C-14%252d50%29
It doesn't fit because the wires come into the back of the plug instead of the side and the box isn't deep enough. So I'm just gonna make the box 2" deeper and it should be fine. It's the same box I put on the gen with a 14-50 plug. It's a "Connecticut Electric CESMPS54HR 50-Amps/120240-Volt RV Power Outlet" box. I bought 2 of these. One for the gen and one for the house hookup.
My new 8x10 Carolina carport is installed close to the house near where the service meter panel is and the trailer/gen will live under it from now on. The wifey is very happy to have it out of the garage for some reason. I actually miss it. All I have left to do is that 50 amp inlet box and I should be set for a while short of having to deal with the light flicker.
Anyway shortly, I'll post some pictures of it all. Thanks to everyone who helped me out here so far.
Regards
Mark