Hey Folks,
So, I thought I'd start a thread rather than hijack the others. Here is my situation:
I live off grid. Currently I have a 12V system, but I am just about to make a major purchase and upgrade to 48V. I have a Honda 5000S generator that I replaced the usual gen head with a LN 110-555. It's a direct drive set up and it came out nice, looks just like a regular generator. I was very, very naughty and didn't even use a lovejoy, I just made an adapter to connect the two drive shafts together, figured out some mounting for a couple of bolts and voila. I know this isn't recommended, I don't endorse the idea but it has indeed worked fine for several hundred hours and still sounds great. The bummer is that it is way too much motor for the alt and fuel economy sucks. Charges the bank up pretty quick though and shuts itself off when done. I am in the process of making a new controller, this one has a fuel sensor that will track volume consumed and a few other fun features.
Anyhoo, with the upgrade to 48V, my battery bank will be eight golf cart batteries in series, for a 10.5kWH bank. I'd like to be able to charge it between C/10 and C/15, so say 80 amps would be nice. Eventually, I will need to charge a 31.6kWH bank with it, within a couple to 5 years. So my ideal would be to make something that could handle the larger load, but I may settle for just being able to charge the current bank. Of course I would like to be able to equalize, but could use my solar for that, my charge controller has that capability. So I could charge the bank up in the AM with the genny, then let solar do the EQ.
I just remembered I have a Leece-Neville model A0014864JB. It's used and untested. If I could strap that to the Honda 5000S frame and use it to charge a 48V bank, I'd be very happy. However, since this upgrade is bleeding me dry cash-wise and is going to be a black hole of time, if I could just modify the 555 to charge for 48V in the current direct drive set up then I could at least do that. While my new inverter will have a charger built in, I just feel naked without a second charging source. I make my own controllers, so no overcharge issues with large alts or anything like that.
Ultimately, I have a new, never run China diesel 8kW generator that I will be using. At that point I want to capture waste heat etc. But I have to build a permanent shed and I am still having to deal with the building dept. and don't want to get them *too* interested.
So bent, I may need those alt frames or not, depending on what the verdict is.
Jonathan,
Is the motor a GX270 (9hp)?
Your coupling has me concerned. If you mounted the alternator with both front & rear alternator bearings intact, your coupling alignment has to be near perfect. By perfect, I mean well below .003" runout between the engine PTO & the alternator input shaft. If not, you'll eventually lose the alternator's front bearing, and quite possibly the alternator's front housing - especially if the alternator is rigidly mounted. Higher RPM & heavier loading will exacerbate the pending failure. LoveJoys allow for a slight misalignment - and if misaligned bad enough, will only wear out the replaceable, neoprene insulator (a.k.a. star). What is your zip?
I have two separate 24v gen projects in progress - Honda GX240 (8hp) W/LN 110-555 (shown) - and the second is tandem coupled (2) GX160's;
(http://i49.tinypic.com/2vdsmck.jpg)
Bent,
The motor is a GX340. I do plan to add a lovejoy in this newest version. Basically I just hung the alt on the motor shaft and then gently bolted it in place. It runs quiet and sounds good through a stethoscope. But I know it's bad and I will add the lovejoy. My zip is 95410, I live about 5 miles outside the teaming metropolis of Albion, CA, poulation 399.
So, from what I have gathered, I could rewire either the 555 or the A014864JB from delta to wye configuration but then I would need to run at 5000 rpm. The Honda runs at 3600 RPM. The only way to get 48V (nominal) at 3600 rpm would be to rewind.
So it looks like choosing between totally modifying my current platfrom to allow for pullys to up the RPMs or re-wind the stator. Is that about right?
And how much of a bugger is it going to be to rewind? Doesn't seem fun, but then niether is building a new platform.
Thanks Gents!
Jonathan
Interesting dilemma, Jonathan
Before I offer a another possible solution, I need to ask;
I'm all in favor of 48v, wish I could. But are you setup for 48v charging with your PV's?... but more importantly, are you setup to 'use' 48v (.i.e inverter, lights, ect). If not, can you make-do with S/P the batteries for 24v instead?
having rewound many stators, for my own projects, i can tell you it gets more difficult
the more wire you try to stuff in the stator slots. bare in mind the ends of each coil must clear the inside of each end housing.
rewinding a 555 for 48vdc nominal wouldn't be too bad, but again what is the goal here?
if the goal is simply to get to a useful 48volt machine at a specific rpm, without regard to efficiency, then go for it.
if on the other hand you are also concerned with efficiency, you might want to consider a belt drive.
in these machines, stator resistance is the dominate factor limiting efficiency in my opinion. far more so than air gaps, iron losses, friction and windage, field current, all combined.
also, if you have problems with carpel tunnel or arthritis, you will certainly pay dearly rewinding one of these stators.
fwiw, if you are going to do it, go to a motor rewind shop, and beg/buy/trade for or whatever you have to do to get some slot paper, and top strips, and use the highest temperature rated wire you can get. don't take short cuts because you will have a few hours invested and having a short or failure later due to not using the proper materials is going to really piss you off.
there is a lot you can do with one of these machines, when rewinding
i came across one a rewound back in the mid 90's, an old leece 2700jb series
it will make 120vac single phase at 600rpm, conversely it will also make 480vac single phase at 2400rpm with 12volt excitation. bloody dangerous machine in my opinion. i built it to see what is possible, the machine is limited to about 7amps due to small gauge stator wire needed to get enough turns in there. it will remain on my shelf as an example of one of my old projects, but i will likely never use it because it is a frightening thing if you forget what it is capable of.
at some point i will destroy it, because i don't want sometime after i am gone to have someone buy it at auction thinking it is a 12volt alternator and get himself killed!
bob g
Brent, Bob,
I am set up to use my PV's for 48V. Actually, I will be running the panels at around 90V and the the charge controller (Midnite Classic 150) will charge at 48V. Nice thing about this is that it allows me to run 4320 watts of panels at the best part of the controller's power curve, for total power processed, charge efficiency and maximum MPPT boost. Plus smallest possible wire guage. So yeah, I'm going 48V.
Efficiency. Well, in the end I need to wind up as efficient as possible. I don't HAVE to, but I want to. Might not be right now though. As I mentioned, I have a diesel gen waiting in the wings. It comes down to how much work and time to do a good job on the gas powered version as to which way I go. I am leaning towards using pullys, but rewinding would just be so slick... And the gen set frame I am using doesn't lend it self well to pullys, from the physical layout point of view.
Thanks, you are both reallly helping me.
Jonathan
Pictured below is a comparison between a 12v (1920w rated) stator, and a 24v (2860w rated) stator. A simple drop-in for the LN 555. I have the 24v stator installed, but I'm still a ways from efficiency testing.
I should point-out here, that I'm NOT using the OEM rectifier or regulator - I'm pulling AC directly off the converted 555 and feeding an external rectifier.
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2nl9qw7.jpg)
And here's a shot of the naked 'business end' W/24v stator. Suffice to say, stator cooling shouldn't be much of an issue. (The field wires weren't yet installed when this pic was taken.) I'm using the OEM 12v rotor.
(http://i50.tinypic.com/x3btop.jpg)
Bent
is the 24v stator wye connected? or delta
i am betting it is wye connected?
btw. where did that spec chart you posted come from?
what alternator was used for the chart?
thanks
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on October 14, 2012, 01:48:17 PM
Bent
is the 24v stator wye connected? or delta
i am betting it is wye connected?
You tell me...
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2j6aa00.jpg)
it appears to be delta wound like the 12volt version, however it also looks to have maybe twice the turn count per coil?
i just can't tell for sure, looks well made though which one would expect
thanks
bob g
Quote from: bentcrafter on October 14, 2012, 02:17:04 PM
Quote from: mobile_bob on October 14, 2012, 01:48:17 PM
Bent
is the 24v stator wye connected? or delta
i am betting it is wye connected?
You tell me...
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2j6aa00.jpg)
It appears to be a Motorola 8MR, originally a marine alternator, one of the few CG approved alts for a gas engine, by the CG.
This one certainly would not be CG approved, due to the modifications and open brush holders.
Of interest to also note is it is an isolated ground...or was in it's factory form. The largest 8MR was only 120 amp cold @12 volt.
So if this alt is/was rated at 12v (1920w rated) stator, and a 24v (2860w rated) stator, it's not by Motorola/Leece.
I also don't think it's a drop in for the triple nickle, as it is /was a different form factor.
Lloyd
http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=897&item=8MR2070TA&product=ALTERNATOR# (http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=897&item=8MR2070TA&product=ALTERNATOR#)
(http://www.prestolite.com/productinfo/alternators/8MR2070TA/8MR2070TA_r.jpg)
Now I'm thinking an elder Prestolite except most of those housings weren't round, but it def come from the merger somewhere. They had some larger amp models that weren't Marine related, bu used the same/similar housing
Lloyd
Hey Mr bentcrafter
Do NOT use the 12 volt stator pictured. It has a leg shorted or grounded out some where as evidenced by the overheated, blackened flaking insulation.
A wye wound three phase stator will somw where have a common lead pigtail connector. A delta wound/connected never have this. Have to see a picture of the complete stator to say for sure if delta or wye. Two leads to each flag end not a 100% reliable indicator of delta due to parallel lead windings possible on some.
Regards
Steve Unruh
i am going with the delta connected 555 style stator made to fit the 24volt counterpart
reason being, in order for the thing to cutin somewhere near as low as the 12volt counterpart i would need about twice the turn count as evidenced in the picture
there would therefore be no need to connect it in wye that i an see if you have the already low enough cut in.
of the 24 volt stators i am aware of the only wye connected ones were single in hand wound and were wye connected, having about 5 turns if i recall correctly, they were rated at about 70-80 amps
the other series i know of is delta connected, wound two in hand, having about 9 turns and were rated at around 160-180amps
there is another series that i have seen, but not taken apart, it is rated at 24 volts @ 240 amps, i can assume it to be wound three in hand, possibly 4 in hand, definitely delta connected. that would be an interesting stator to take a look at.
also RE electric (seattle tacoma) bought a large rewind shop down in socal about 5 years ago now, i was told that they would rewind any stator to my specification provided it was a possible project. the price would be something between an aftermarket stock stator and a new oem stock stator, which i thought to be quite acceptable.
that would open up some interesting possibilities.
if i were to spec a stator for my purposes, i would probably go for 4 in hand, 6 turns per pole connected in delta. this would get me a 48volt nominal output (~60v charging) in the 5-5500 rpm range. which would work out very well for my needs, a nice compromise between reliability, cooling, output, efficiency and rpm. i might also want it pigtailed for connection as wye or delta, that way i would use switch gear to get usable charging at ~ 3500-4000rpm wye connected albeit at lower efficiency.
in any event, i have long been a strong proponent of the 555 type alternator.
my first hands on connection with the grandaddy of this unit was in '82 while working in a truck shop, one came in dead on a truck and got swapped for an 1100080 delco..
it was the motorola Steve and Lloyd talk about, but not a marine version. it was very heavy because of a cast iron case, even though thin wall cast it was very heavy compared to the modern 555. i knew when i first got my hands on it, that it would be a great alternator for low rpm ranges or rewind to other voltages. it having 16 poles, externally accessible brush holder and low iron stator made it very desirable, just not very available and bloody expensive to experiment with back in the day.
when i first saw the loadhandler by prestolite i immediately knew where it came from, they bought the rights from motorola and i was thrilled to see it available for such a low price.
as far as i am concerned it is the best thing since sliced bread for diy battery charging uses.
bob g
Quote from: Lloyd on October 14, 2012, 08:15:16 PM
It appears to be a Motorola 8MR, originally a marine alternator, one of the few CG approved alts for a gas engine, by the CG.
This one certainly would not be CG approved, due to the modifications and open brush holders.
Of interest to also note is it is an isolated ground...or was in it's factory form. The largest 8MR was only 120 amp cold @12 volt.
So if this alt is/was rated at 12v (1920w rated) stator, and a 24v (2860w rated) stator, it's not by Motorola/Leece.
I also don't think it's a drop in for the triple nickle, as it is /was a different form factor.
Lloyd
Quote from: Lloyd on October 14, 2012, 08:30:13 PM
Now I'm thinking an elder Prestolite except most of those housings weren't round, but it def come from the merger somewhere. They had some larger amp models that weren't Marine related, bu used the same/similar housing
Lloyd
The alternator pictured above (connected to the Honda motor)
is, in fact a genuine Leece-Neville 110-555. Look closely and you can see the remnants of the Leece-Neville sticker is still on the top of the case - I have 3 of these alternators, all are 8HLA 110-555 units. Trust me.
Here's the 24v stator & brushes packaging
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2i9ik8.jpg)
The 24v stator
is currently installed and physically matches the 555 housing & 12v rotor... perfectly. Which doesn't surprise because the 24v stator shown, was factory installed in select 8HLA housings - I know of at least 4 models that used this 24v stator.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/ojhzlc.jpg)
Quote from: SteveU. on October 14, 2012, 08:42:55 PM
Hey Mr bentcrafter
Do NOT use the 12 volt stator pictured. It has a leg shorted or grounded out some where as evidenced by the overheated, blackened flaking insulation.
Yes, thank you for pointing that out, I hadn't noticed it - doesn't really matter anyway since I'm not using ANY 12v stators... good or bad.
Quote from: SteveU. on October 14, 2012, 08:42:55 PMA wye wound three phase stator will somw where have a common lead pigtail connector. A delta wound/connected never have this. Have to see a picture of the complete stator to say for sure if delta or wye. Two leads to each flag end not a 100% reliable indicator of delta due to parallel lead windings possible on some.
Leece-Neville clearly states on its web site that the 24v stator I ordered and installed, is in fact Delta. There is no other connections - just 3 pairs of 2 wires each (as pictured).
Bentcrafter
you have a pm!
thanks
bob g\
ps.
quote "Yes, thank you for pointing that out, I hadn't noticed it - doesn't really matter anyway since I'm not using ANY 12v stators... good or bad." end quote
i for one would be interested in your explanation as to why not? i understand that you are going for a 24 volt nominal system, and i understand you are chasing every last Nth degree of efficiency,, so i am interested in your thinking on avoiding the 12volt stators (new or good used stator of course)
you are wanting to avoid belt drive losses by using the lovejoy, and that is fine, but you will lose more using the 24 volt stator over the use of a 12volt stator than you would even with the worst belt drive.
care to elaborate?
So, am I correct that if I rewire the the 14864JB for a wye configuration and I up the RPMs to 5000 I should be able to use it to charge but not equalize a 48V bank? How much power can I hope to pull from it?
Jonathan
according to my calcs
if you connect the alternator in question, leece neville 270amp A0014864jb
from delta to wye and turn it to 5krpm
it should produce a maximum of ~55volts at full amperage of ~150amps cold
and maybe 120amps hot at that output
my bet is at lower amperage the voltage will climb plenty high enough to equalize at over 60vdc without problems. probably still be able to exceed 60vdc at full excitation @5krpm, hot and putting out ~90amps or a bit better.
basically 5kwatts is probably close to its capability under those conditions.
you will need to upgrade the rectifier diodes as you know, and you will want some sort of sophisticated controller/regulation, which under the circumstances i would suggest a balmar or similar because of it amp manager capability and switchable equalization capability.
i have wye connected the stator of a 170amp version of your leece neville, and got it to charging and equalization voltage running at 4800rpm.
i have also done the same with a 270amp stator, however the efficiency is down to about 52% or so iirc, the stator runs hot but under max temps safely enough. i ended up adapting it for water cooling and that took care of that, but it did not improve efficiency (never expected it to) but it would probably improve reliability and lifespan. having said that i don't think it is necessary to water cool it.
i have two other leece neville oem alternators built on the same frame, one is rated at 48volts and uses an external rectifier pack, the other is rated at 54vdc and has internal recifiers like all the others, both of which are wye connected stators, both of which are rated at 90amps max output. both rare units that were limited production units made for other oem's. leece lists them as being thermally limited to 90amps max output, so i would expect that is the most power you can get out of them wye connected with oem fan cooling.
fwiw
bob g
Bob,
That all sounds pretty good. as to diodes, do you think I should look for ones that I can press into the exisiting diode pack or make a remote mounted pack? Regulator is no problem, the one I make reads amps, volts and batt temperature.
Actually, there is a small issue I have to solve, using a 10 bit ADC with a 5V reference to read up to 62 volts with decebt resolution and stability. For testing I can just use a power pot though.
Thanks for all the help!
Jonathan
Oops, forgot to ask:
How does a dual A belt with a 3.55 diameter drive pully and a 2.55 on the alt? That would give a RPM boost from 3600 to 5011.
Jonathan
two A belts should be fine, however i would step up to two AX series belts
or similar in the automotive series. notched belts from quality manufactures are capable of about a 40% increase in power transmission over the plain belts.
i would have to consult the manufactures engineering to say for certain, but my guess is two such belts could safely handle all you will ask from this alternator.
i use twin AA belts (the hexagonal section belts) the drive pulley is about 9" and the driven are about 3.5" my operating rpm is 1800 at the engine and 4800 at the alternators. i drive two such alternators and a sanden AC compressor. of course not all at once, but from memory the engineering allows for both alternators to be driven to near capacity with this single cylinder diesel engine.
in testing i drive one alternator to provide for 12volt charging of the starting battery and provide for 12volt bus needs, the other i have pulled in excess of 5 kwatts without any signs of undue slippage or much in the way of heat gain... they will run at about 105 degree F on a 70 degree day, and they run this warm pretty much regardless of load, so flexing probably is responsible for the lions share of the warming of the belts. i also run them no tighter than is necessary to keep down belt whip, which is remarkably loose in this application, far looser than i have ever been able to run belts on a mid or heavy truck application.
so i would expect twin A drive using good quality notched belts would do every bit as good as twin AA section belts and in reality they should do better than mine.
as for the diodes, i think for a leece neville jb series running at 55-60vdc and around 100amps, i would probably seriously consider using external mount rectifiers.
also on your regulator/controller design, you might want to consider embedding a temp sensor into the stator and monitor the temperature under heavy load. i would be a good thing to keep an eye on that with software so that on a very hot day, under a heavy charge that might go on for hours, you could avoid damage to the alternator by tapering back the charge rate if things got too hot.
you would probably have to check with leece neville for the max stator temps, however most modern alternators are made to handle underhood temps of 205 degree's plus and the newest ones are rated for 225 degree F underhood temps. now this is underhood air that is used for cooling so stator temps are probably allowed to be substantially over that? how much more i don't know, but i would check!
as to resolution of your adc, you might consider two sets of code, one for standard charge range, and another used only for equalization. a single line set high or low could then switch the code between the two? you probably already have considered that? just a thought.
fwiw
bob g
Hi Jonathan
Your pulleys you propose are way too small for a reliable, efficient V belt system.
Take a belt in hand and squeeze it down to that radius and feel the rubber and cord compressing. Now imagine this compression/decompression happening continuously all along the belt under a load. Makes heat. Degrades and softens the belt. Heat is lost energy.
I like belts. Good way to have effective ratio changes. Have a slippable "Make smoke!" easily replaceable weak link to protect both the driving and the driven sides.
I think this pixilation with direct drive for efficiency is just plain dumb goes against decades of in field experiences and $$$ wasteful.
Only valid reasons for this are to reduce manufacturing costs and user dumbing down maintenance awareness. NOT valid reasons for DO IT YOURSELF goals.
We WANT to be more aware of the process! Using readily available parts and systems.
So on this unit set up with V belts do not go below a millions of hours experience proven 3 1/2" alt head pulley. Correspondently larger driving end pulley for the ratio you want.
For ideal V belt life and the highest energy transfer you would really want to go 3X these diameters and drop down and with the greater "stick-tion" surface areas back to a single V belt. Compress/bend the belt less for the lowest heating, longest life and high drive efficiency - lawn mower deck proven. Spendy and specialized for the pulleys though to fit your set up. You'll know when your pulleys and belt are not heating anymore after a loaded RPM running usage.
Want due to installation space concerns smaller pulleys than this is where you then go to a polygroove belt system. Even more expensive for the pulleys. Force your self into much tighter alignment setting up. AND when coupled to a push/accelerated for 60-90 degrees then pulling-back/decelerating for 660-630 degrees in a single cylinder IC engine then you really do want to have an oscillation dampened spring arm belt tensioner. Otherwise you will get per cycle micro slipping flat spotting of the face of the belt. Then with your over tensioning to combat this along with the now rough running flat spotted belt you will hammer out whichever bearing or bearing pocket is the weakest. Ford and GM had to 1950's re-learn this in thier late 80's trasuition period. "Arm Strong" tightening was killing their unit bearings.
This acceleration/deceleration in small single cylinder IC engine cycling is also why cogged/timing belts or a chain drive system would be dumb also.
Yes I spent the money and time to have bought and set up to try in one form or another all of these with small IC engines.
Go V Belts! (using experienced learned good pulleying)
Regards
Steve Unruh
Quote from: SteveU. on October 15, 2012, 11:29:17 AM
I think this pixilation with direct drive for efficiency is just plain dumb goes against decades of in field experiences and $$$ wasteful.
Only valid reasons for this are to reduce manufacturing costs and user dumbing down maintenance awareness. NOT valid reasons for DO IT YOURSELF goals.
We WANT to be more aware of the process! Using readily available parts and systems.
Steve Unruh
Wow... Had I known that diesels and belt drives were a prerequisite to joining this form, I would've gone elsewhere... posthaste. I guess I was just too "dumb" to realize it before I stabbed the 'join' button.
Bent
what happened to all your pics?
hopefully you haven't decided to take your ball and go away?
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on October 15, 2012, 06:05:20 PM
Bent
hopefully you haven't decided to take your ball and go away?
bob g
Is that the way you see it?
Reality is, my "ball" was rejected from the onset - akin to bringing a bowling ball to a football game.
You repeatedly ask what my intentions are, yet you consistently reject my chosen format. It's as though everyone attempting to charge battering needs to embrace YOUR alternator configured YOUR way.
* Spin the gen head at 4k - even when I expressed a firm decision not to.
* The criticism of Mosfet rectification.
* Criticism of using a 24v stator - even when it was revealed that, apparently, no one here even knew it existed... let alone knew it was readily available.
* And members recklessly criticizing direct drives, labeling individuals who do, as "dumb".
Hey Bent,
Do get so bent.
Being new here what you may not have realized it, people were trying to help you based on experience. That experience includes results of known failures, it's not just their opinion
against your own.
But one thing I know there is always room to go against the grain, but knowing the risk decrease failed attempts.
LLoyd
Quote from: bentcrafter on October 16, 2012, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: mobile_bob on October 15, 2012, 06:05:20 PM
Bent
hopefully you haven't decided to take your ball and go away?
bob g
Is that the way you see it?
Reality is, my "ball" was rejected from the onset - akin to bringing a bowling ball to a football game.
You repeatedly ask what my intentions are, yet you consistently reject my chosen format. It's as though everyone attempting to charge battering needs to embrace YOUR alternator configured YOUR way.
* Spin the gen head at 4k - even when I expressed a firm decision not to.
* The criticism of Mosfet rectification.
* Criticism of using a 24v stator - even when it was revealed that, apparently, no one here even knew it existed... let alone knew it was readily available.
* And members recklessly criticizing direct drives, labeling individuals who do, as "dumb".
Bent
with all due respect, yes that is the way i see it!
how else are we to see it? when all your pictures have been removed?
now lets address your concerns, and then i will layout mine
fair enough?
"You repeatedly ask what my intentions are, yet you consistently reject my chosen format."
yes i have asked you what your goals are, and i think that is fair enough given the amount of help given to you by this forum. without having some idea what your goals are, we are left to explain all possible outcomes and make all sorts of recommendations, some of which are not appropriate for your use, maybe? so when i ask you what your goals are, it is so that we all can have an understanding of what specifically you are trying to accomplish so that we don't have to go down all sorts of paths that are unnecessary, our time is worth something too you know! we are only trying to help as best we can, but we need you to help us help you!
"It's as though everyone attempting to charge battering needs to embrace YOUR alternator configured YOUR way."
quite frankly i could care the less how you go about charging batteries, and i would strongly support you trying other methods, it is likely you or someone else will find a better way, or at least another way that is equally as good, however...
you are here asking questions, and i am answering them with info based on over 30 years of rewinding, repurposing, and researching these machines. "my way" as you refer to it is only one possible way, that i have proven works. it is a way that i have invested several hundreds of hours in R&D, and at least a couple grand in parts to arrive at, so yes i get very particular in the explanation of how it is done, because...
if you choose to adapt my method and end up toasting an expensive controller, i do not want, nor would i deserve the blame for your misapplication. it is a two way street, i don't want anyone to torch good equipment, and i don't want the bad press for someone doing something other than what i describe.
again, i am all for other methods, just do it, prove it, write a white paper and publish it, and if it is legit, i for one will promote it!
"* Spin the gen head at 4k - even when I expressed a firm decision not to."
you can spin it any speed you like, i am only trying to relate to you what you are likely to get as a result, i have no attachment to any particular rpm, i just know what works for a 555 alternator used as i described it in the paper.
" The criticism of Mosfet rectification."
the only criticism is this, complexity, cost, and reliability. yes the mosfet is far more efficient, but at what cost? and if overall efficiency is the end goal, there are other more effective and simpler means to that end. again it all depends on what your goals are? what are you goals?
"* Criticism of using a 24v stator - even when it was revealed that, apparently, no one here even knew it existed... let alone knew it was readily available. "
now you are trying even my patience, what ever gave you the idea that know one here knew of a 24volt stator for these alternators or specifically the 555 type alternator? i for one have known of such being available for as long as this unit type has been in production, about 20 odd years now! i also knew it was available in both wye and delta configuration, even though both may not be currently in production, i don't know that, and could care the less... again if efficiency is your goal, using either for a 24volt charger is not the way to go, sorry but it is a fact as inconvenient as that might be.
"* And members recklessly criticizing direct drives, labeling individuals who do, as "dumb"."
i can only suspect there are those that are getting a bit tired of offering help and guidance only to have it ignored? the use of a lovejoy is nothing new here, and the use of belts are nothing new either... many folks here have tried both and know the pitfalls each presents to specific applications, again without knowing specifically the goals of the project it is hard to support the use of a lovejoy because it locks you into a very narrow rpm range. most folks don't want to be locked into a specific rpm range until such time that they know what the requisite rpm needed will be.
you come alone with the story of a converted 200cc engine, modified by yourself and estimated to produce over 10hp, however when asked you offer no specific's.
now i understand it might be fair for you not to want to release info about your engine just yet, but it is incumbent upon you to state that up front! you could easily state, that you have significant time and money invested in it, and are not ready to release specific's about the unit, that would be fair, but quite another to simply ignore requests for info.
there is one thing you will find here that will get you into a lot of heat very quickly, that is if you are trying to use this forums resources to develop a commercial product without stepping up and stating your purpose to start with. many here would gladly help with the development of a product, however none are keen on being used.
i am not saying that you are guilty of this, but if the shoe fits?
so there you have it.
bob g
Well put Bob,
I wish Bentcrafter listed some profile info, his argument style reminds me of someone I used to work for.
Anyway, hope he see's the light.
Terry
Edit: my bad, I confused Bentcrafter with the OP (sorry about that)
Bent (and anyone else that is interested)
having given this issue more thought, it occurred to me that maybe a bit more explanation is in order.
you seem to have an issue with me or think i am only concerned with my method of charging batteries, using only this method, to the exclusion of anything you might have to say or do on the subject.
let me tell you straight up front,
the white paper was not only the result of a lot of work, but perhaps more so a vindication of my dogheaded belief in some ways.
you think you are the first one to run into opposition, (not saying you have, but only acknowledging you feelings) i can tell you that i ran into serious opposition not only from the diy'er community but also more than a few ME and EE!
rather than getting all wadded up about their being less than supportive (to put it mildly) i used their critiques as motivation and took what i could from that exchange.
rather than getting pissed off, i did my best to understand their concerns, did more research to see if their positions had validity and why. i always made note of what the oppositions concerns were so that i could revisit them later.
sometimes later i would be confronted with an "aha" moment, and realize then what the critique was all about, learned from it and integrated it into my research and learning. sometimes i would also have a similar "aha" moment and learn that what i was being led to believe was not based on fact but rather on popular belief.
it might have been easier to just gotten pissed off and refused to at least listen to what the nay sayers had to say, however i would have shorted myself a lot of good information that led me to a more successful outcome.
reinventing the wheel really is a lot of work, and i got better things to do.
sometimes the nay sayers know what they are talking about, often times even when they are wrong it isn't because of a fault of theirs but more likely i didn't phrase my question properly or misunderstood what they had to say, particularly when those nay sayers were ME and EE.
bottom line is this, if you feel strongly about something, by all means proceed with all earnest, don't let me or anyone else dissuade you in any way. take all critiques for what they can do to help you with your goals, and realize that you might have to thicken your skin a bit in the process.
remember anything of value does not come easy, if it did it would already have been done!
bottom line, get out in the shop (if you are at that stage yet) build your project, document it, do the testing, report the results and make alterations until you get the result you are after. learn what you can from the process, from every other possible source, and from those that support and those that would be less than supportive.
in the end that is all that is really important, that being learning something you didn't know before you started.
anyway that is the way i see it.
ymmv
bob g
Bob, your such a rabble rouser, face it the world is flat. ;D Actually you are a gentleman and a scholar!
I think one of the high points in my software developer carrier was when I delivered a complicated piece of software to client, we went through the testing and after proving that it worked the client remarked that they were told by a major player in the industry that what I just delivered could not be done.
Any comments on my Miller 1e update post?
Hi All,
Just back form my 48 hour shift.
So Steve, how about a 3.55" pully on the alt and a 4.95" on the motor? That gives me 5kRPM and is much larger.
And Bob, I did mean AX belts, not just A belts.
Bent, I do wish I could remain beltless, I love my current direct drive. Simple and nice looking and I didn't have to build a cage around the belts for safety and it keeps the foot print as small as possible. However in this case belts are going to be easier (I think) than rewinding an alt. I might still buy a 555 core from you to experiment with.
Thanks folks!
Jonathan
Sounds good Jonathan
Advantage of going smaller pulley is certainly the price. I have purchased larger up to 12" triples for long service life applications transferring 3X your power. Spendy.
Expanded metal makes a nice ventilated guard material. Realize you this alternator needs to suck cool air in the backside and expel it out the front at the fan edge.
I know you want to stay compact and will using as short of belts as possible. Too short of V bets shortens life. Micro tearing of the cords from the shock absorption and I think not enough cool down off of the pulley time. Too long of belts shortens life. They bounce and flap again micro tearing the cords. Ha! Ha! Best compromise I've found is to use an in local supplier stocked matched belt pair. Not something that has to be special ordered in.
Another basic factor in generating is the rotating feild/armature to stationary poles passing speeds. For truely optimized engineereing this is optimized by going larger with larger diameters to increase this this speed at the determined operating RPM. This is how many of the good DIY wind people do this with their PM hand mades. Same with the larger diameter pancake multi-pole PM direct bolt on units been pictured being used here by others. Very spaecial units. This is how the big boy Inverter unit manufacturers do this.
The low RPM direct drive transit bus units were the Delco type 50 DN's alternators and theirs and others earlier big generator units. You CAN acquire these.
Then have to step up to 3-4X in weight, size and base pricing. Even some specialty high efficiency alternator manufacturers catering to the Emergency vehicle market in Electrodyne, Niehoff and a third I cannot now recall that would down speed direct drive put out better to these expectations. Now into $$$$ new. OK used, but hard to find and high repair costs.
Price, availabilty and operating costs are ALWAYS factors we are all juggling.
With the 555 Motorola/Prestolite/Leece-Neville units you are as inexpensive into it as you will get with a readliavaible buy off the shelf new as a base to work with.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Steve,
What is a reccomended length or rule of thumb for determining it? While foot print is important to me, belt life is more important.
Jonathan
Hey.
Mr Lloyd was going to put up a link to the Gates belt engineering guide on another thread. Best answer would be in there or the Dayco equivalent.
From field service work I'd say minimum of 4 times average pulley diameter spacing shaft center to center. Very much longer is where you then benefit from the expensive top banded belts. Not recommending this as you must then for sure be using the proper depth of pulley V's. DIY you want to be able to substitute as needed.
Regards
Steve Unruh
Thanks Steve! Out of curiosity, what is the gen beaing run in the second picture above? Looks like a beast.
Jonathan
Why not use two, 24 V alternators and split charge the batteries? This would use off the shelf equipment. I did this years ago on a boat with 12 V alternators to get 24 V. Back then it met isolating the second alternator above ground. Mike