Hi,
I have some conflicting information about the orientation of the oil dipper on the big-end of a 6/1 connecting rod.
My manual states that the dipper should be positioned with the narrow part hitting the oil so that it "knifes" through the lubricant.
However, I have seen many pictures of the dipper positioned with the wide part hitting the oil "broadside".
My own engine arrived "broadside" despite the manual that came with it.
At the moment, I have repositioned it to knife the oil.
Can anyone clarify this issue before I do a final bolt-up and start the engine.?
Thanks,
Veggie
First picture "Knife Edge"
Second Picture "Broadside"
Mine is Knife edge and everything I have read indicates that knife edge is the correct orientation.
carl.
All positions have been tried and I have not heard of problems either way. One observation I happened across was when I installed a oil slinger on a basic 6/1 that pressure fed oil to the rod bearing. It never would stop the slobber or using oil. I never got it to break in like my other splash type 6/1's. It usually takes 8-25 hours with a good load on it before they settle down. The 6/1 with the oil slinger just would not break in so I disconnected the supply and walla it settled down and the rings seated. I am thinking (OH OH) to much oil on the initial break in will prevent or stall the rings from seating in...maybe maybe not.....Now that it has settled down I'm going to start supplying oil to the slinger again and see what it does. The slinger will supply lots of fresh filtered to the rod main which will sling off to the piston and cylinder walls and maybe too much oil.... So....maybe knife edge for break in and flat after....???!
FWIW, the Indians set mine up knife-edge on at the factory. I'm going with a XYZER dipper, so orientation becomes pretty obvious...
Does someone have a link for the XYZER dipper with pictures somewhere?
Other things I'm battling to find "original" posts about is: The Mr.X Balancing Method
On my wish-list: One place were all "known to work" modifications, old and new, were documented like in the white paper area! ;)
I am out of dippers and if the there is a demand increase may make more......
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/alldippers2.jpg)
Quote from: XYZER on November 13, 2009, 07:21:00 AM
I am out of dippers and if the there is a demand increase may make more......
If you have a waiting list, please add my name!
I'll sign on for a dipper too ! Not sure which size yet, for a Metro. Any reason I would want a spare?
So, do these go in with threadloc, or what keep them from backing out ? Indian thread pitch?
Thank you very much XYZER, 1st time I see them up close!
You should put this picture in the White Paper section so new guys can find it in the future, I'm sure you'll get more orders that way.
Which one would you recommend, or have been ordered by people before, for an original Lister CS Single if I may ask ???
I presume they wont be $16.50 to South Africa though! :'(
Dave,
Seems like this would be a good time to beat the drum. They'd make a great stocking stuffer for Christmas. Mebbe a not-too-discrete hint to the wife or S.O. . . .
Quinn
Quote from: cgwymp on November 13, 2009, 08:08:19 AM
If you have a waiting list, please add my name!
I'm taking a half day of vacation to get caught up on some chores, but I decided to see how my dipper was oriented. I had recalled it being round, but thought, "Nah, that can't be right."
Turns out
is round -- because it's a tube! The bottom of it is angle-cut, facing the direction of rotation. Certainly not as elegant as xyzer's, but looks like someone ran with the idea.
I'd still like to stay on the list, though. ;-)
Yep, sign me up for one.
It sounds like a cheap way to improve the big end bearing life.
Daryl
I'll take one also and an offset idler bolt.
carl
Quote from: dubbleUJay on November 13, 2009, 10:30:53 AM
Which one would you recommend, or have been ordered by people before, for an original Lister CS Single if I may ask ???
I presume they wont be $16.50 to South Africa though! :'(
dubbleUJay,
If your Lister has no oil pump and is splash it take a 3" if it has a oil pump and front sump it takes a 2". I think I might have a 3" laying around.
guys, If I remember correctly you will also need the un-groved rod bearings from JohnF to make these work, but very worth the effort !
Scott R.
We really need to get all of this info in one place where a newcomer like me can find it all !!!
I know there's been some effort on that line already...
So, OK - I need a 3" dipper since my Metro doesn't have an oil pump.
And given the reasonable price of the new dipper, I'll take an offset idler bolt too, if they're still available.
And where do you get the solid upper bearing set ?
(Daryl waves his pitiful supply of cash in the air...)
Thanks !
Daryl
Daryl, send a personal message to JohnF for the bearings. he's listed in the members section.
Scott R.
Quote from: lowspeedlife on November 13, 2009, 03:35:37 PM
guys, If I remember correctly you will also need the un-groved rod bearings from JohnF to make these work, but very worth the effort !
Scott R.
Scott
Not true....This design engine has been pounding dirt for a long time with no dipper or solid upper bearing. The dipper with either tupe bearing will enhance the oil supply to the rod bearing. Add an upper solid bearing and maybe more life.
Now if I had 40 or so 2" made! But alas I have six 3" dippers here. If you want one follow the instruction in the picture I posted. A possable offset Idler and 2" dipper may happen soon.
Dave
Quote from: lowspeedlife on November 13, 2009, 03:35:37 PM
guys, If I remember correctly you will also need the un-groved rod bearings from JohnF to make these work, but very worth the effort !
Scott R.
Can someone verify this please, its no use ordering the one without the other then.
XYZER, I've got a Dursley Lister and it does have a pump, I'll have to open to see what type of bearing is in it though, but I don't understand why that would be an issue, I would've thought that the grooved on would work better ???
I remember seeing hollow dippers on the Petter A&AP's, but not on any Lister's yet.
dubbleUJay
Seems like everyone is on the same thread at the same time posting! Got my answer while I posted, thanks!
The plain upper bearing shuts off the lube holes on the top of the rod and I dont think that combination would fly without either the hollow dipper or the centrifugal slinger with drilled crank. I cant see any harm though in using the hollow dipper together with the original upper. The plain upper though, like John sells, with more bearing area intact should last longer .
I had the experience once of absentmindedly installing a pair of main bearing shells without the oil hole to the supply it wiped the babbit in a few minutes. Got lucky and didnt ruin the crank. The replacement bearings had both shell drilled! They sure got wise to me quick!
Quote from: Crofter on November 14, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
The plain upper bearing shuts off the lube holes on the top of the rod and I dont think that combination would fly without either the hollow dipper or the centrifugal slinger with drilled crank. I cant see any harm though in using the hollow dipper together with the original upper. The plain upper though, like John sells, with more bearing area intact should last longer .
I agree...........
Ideally I would drill the solid upper so the oil supply holes were still functional. That is just me....on a oil slinger engine with a solid upper bearing if the oil pump fails with no hollow dipper you die! With the oil supply holes on type you survive, add the dipper and it is like nothing happened!
Dave
So when I buy a new engine, (metro 6/1) it comes with a solid dipper, and what sort of upper bearing bushing ?
IS it something that has to be replaced immediately, or replace with a hollow dipper somewhere down the line?
If the Metro does not have an oil pump, how does oil get to the upper part of the engine & cam, or is that all hand oil 2x daily?
Does the spray from the solid factory dipper get any oil to the upper rod bearing? How can a hollow dipper get more oil to the upper rod ?
Lets see if I can help Mike......
Quote from: mike90045 on November 15, 2009, 12:02:04 PM
So when I buy a new engine, (metro 6/1) it comes with a solid dipper, and what sort of upper bearing bushing ?
It will come with oil groves and open lube holes on the upper bearing shells, and most likely a solid splash type dipper.
Quote from: mike90045 on November 15, 2009, 12:02:04 PM
IS it something that has to be replaced immediately, or replace with a hollow dipper somewhere down the line?
At the minimum clean the crankcase and get rid of all signs of sand. Check the rod bearing for dirty oil test run, check rod clearance If it looks good you are ready to go. The hollow dipper is not a must have
I believe most rod bearing failures are due to an Indian supplied dirty enviroment. The hollow dipper adds a little more oil to an already proven method on true Listers (some Listers had a hollow dipper).
Quote from: mike90045 on November 15, 2009, 12:02:04 PM
If the Metro does not have an oil pump, how does oil get to the upper part of the engine & cam, or is that all hand oil 2x daily?
Splash....unless the 6/1 has a slinger (rare) to lube the rod bearing all 6/1's engines are splash even if it has a pump. The pump on the 6/1 without the slinger is only good for allowing you to filter the oil. They do supply oil to the TRB's but they really don't need it. The bushing type mains did!
Quote from: mike90045 on November 15, 2009, 12:02:04 PM
Does the spray from the solid factory dipper get any oil to the upper rod bearing? How can a hollow dipper get more oil to the upper rod ?
The hollow dipper adds oil to the bottom of the bearing to enhance the oil supply from the top. Oil anywhere in the rod bearing is a good thing IMO!
Quote from: XYZER on November 13, 2009, 09:25:23 PM
Quote from: lowspeedlife on November 13, 2009, 03:35:37 PM
guys, If I remember correctly you will also need the un-groved rod bearings from JohnF to make these work, but very worth the effort !
Scott R.
Scott
Not true....This design engine has been pounding dirt for a long time with no dipper or solid upper bearing. The dipper with either tupe bearing will enhance the oil supply to the rod bearing. Add an upper solid bearing and maybe more life.
Now if I had 40 or so 2" made! But alas I have six 3" dippers here. If you want one follow the instruction in the picture I posted. A possable offset Idler and 2" dipper may happen soon.
Dave
Thanks Dave,
I thought that this was a "both or neither" situation. Nice to know I don't need the solid upper shell (in case of a failure & not having them on hand), but I still think I want them.
Scott R.