I have transformer and am looking for info on it's suitability to to use as a balancing transformer with a ST-5 powered by a 6/1. It is a HS12F2AS 2KVA transformer MFG by Sola Hevi Duty. Here is a link to the MFG's page http://www.newark.com/sola-hevi-duty/hs12f2as/auto-transformer/dp/52M9859 (http://www.newark.com/sola-hevi-duty/hs12f2as/auto-transformer/dp/52M9859)
If this is a suitable transformer, any suggestions how to wire it?
Here is a schematic:
Temperature Rise 115 Deg C on that model... mount it carefully.
Some light reading here: http://64.90.169.191/applications/electrical/energy/trans_efficiency.html (http://64.90.169.191/applications/electrical/energy/trans_efficiency.html) (cant find smaller xfmr notes, sorry)
Anyhow, I know its probably a little late but searching for a used copper-core 1:2 up/down transformer would be my choice, over sized too...
Well, you have a 5Kw generator, and a 2"kw" balancer. You won't be able to completely pull full load off a single 120V leg, but you should be able to come close.
Check out the diagrams in the Xantrex/Trace T220/T240 Transformer manual. That should help.
http://www.altestore.com/store/Enclosures-Electrical-Safety/Miscellaneous-Electrical-Parts/Transformers/Xantrex-Trace-T240-Transformer/p2259/
http://www.altestore.com/store/Enclosures-Electrical-Safety/Miscellaneous-Electrical-Parts/Transformers/Xantrex-Trace-T240-Transformer/p2259/pdfs/xantrex/T240%20Autotransformer%20User%20Guide.pdf
I need to be careful with my 240V - 24V sprinkler timer transformer, that it does not attempt to work as a balance transformer.
Ok realizing that only 2 kw of of the 2.5 theoretically available kw, but we are engine limited to 3 kw so that doesn't seem an issue. The next issue I see is which set of windings to use if using the secondary windings it would be neutrals to x2 & x3 with the 120v hots going to x1 and x4.
Any thought about using the primary vs. secondary windings?
Tom,
I would use the secondary windings. Use the '120-0-120' configuration. Hook the neutral to the X2-X3 connection and the 120V legs go to X1 and X4, and do not connect X2 to ground. You will then have a big auto-transformer. I have a 4KW torrid hooked up this way and it works great to even out the current between the 120V legs.
Greg
PS: You could also possibly hook up the primary as well for more copper but I would be concerned about winding imbalance. You probably would just saturate the iron anyway.
"neutrals to x2 & x3 with the 120v hots going to x1 and x4"
That is how I have mine hooked up.
Ok thanks for the confirmations! I'll try not to let the magic smoke out.
Do you have the number for 911?
Or know of any firefighters in the area?
;)
It works, but not well enough. It seems I'm power limited due to lack of HP on the listeroid. The acid test is running the microwave on full power, which it will now do, but just barely. Voltage on the microwave leg goes to 105 and the other managed to stay around 115. The fundamental problem is that the inverter on the microwave leg will back off on it's charge rate to 0 how ever the other leg is still chugging along at a full 13 amps. This does not free up enough power to run the extra load. The microwave is about 16 amps and who knows what the power factor is.
So on to plan B. Unfortunately this transformer is probably not big enough. If the generator is wired for 120vac only and it's run through the 240vac primary windings, the 120 vac taps on the secondary winding should have 60 vac and having gone through the transformer might be clean enough to rectify and send to an MX60?
Tom,
Do you have any 220v loads on your system?
It might be easier to wire everything to 110v and change your outback stacking setup.
I could loan you my auto-xformer to try but it does sound like you are power limited with 1 outback using that much charge current.
Greg
No 240v loads at this time, but a good wire feed welder is in the plans, also might change the pump for the water system to 240v.
I really think I'd like to make a good 48vdc charger for the battery bank. That way the generator can be run at optimal load no matter what the demand for the system is. Are there any good reasons not to go this way?
Charge control is the biggest difficulty with a ST head (but you knew that already).
I hear you can just hook up a rheostat and you are good to go ::)
If anyone knows of a source for a big 48VDC alternator, or one that can be modded to 48V I would also be interested.
-Greg
Something like this http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/22081 (http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/22081) might be a good way to go.
Wide voltage range input and regulated output. Hook it up directly to the 220v windings and no imbalance!
I remember someone documented what bins to jumper to power it up. I will try to find the information.
-Greg
Greg, if you find that info, ill buy you a bunch of beer!!!!
I bought one of those a year ago, and never got it working.
The seller was no help.
@Tom:
QuoteAre there any good reasons not to go this way?
Quotethe 120 vac taps on the secondary winding should have 60 vac and having gone through the transformer might be clean enough to rectify and send to an MX60?
Nope, that's what I do. You'll need a bigger transformer, though. Mine's a just a surplus 5kva 2:1 transformer. Price to ship was more than what it cost me on ebay, but I couldn't find one locally. You'll also need to put the rectified power through a big choke to smooth out the ripple before feeding it into a MX60/MX80. There are a couple threads on this when I was building it last year and spring this year.
@gregger2k:
QuoteIf anyone knows of a source for a big 48VDC alternator, or one that can be modded to 48V I would also be interested.
ha, I just asked that same question a few minutes ago on a different thread.
And gregger2k, with that rectifier you linked, the output is 48 V regulated. How do you charge a battery bank w/ 48 V? You have to get it up to 60V. Also, what Brett just wrote...
bschwartz: here is a link to the data sheet of that particular unit:
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/408744/LINEAGEPOWER/CAR3010L1NH-1A.html (http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/408744/LINEAGEPOWER/CAR3010L1NH-1A.html)
Look it over and let's see if we can figure this thing out.
mbryner: the output is adjustable by pot to 43.2 to 58.2 volts. Some of the other other rectifiers in this family type
http://www.datasheetking.com/DSA00383318-datasheet.html (http://www.datasheetking.com/DSA00383318-datasheet.html) have a 'V Program' terminal to set the output to between 40 to 58 volts" One might even to program a micro-controller to make a 3-stage charger out of it!
'For -48 V version, output voltage is -40 V with 2 V applied to Pin 10 WRT Pin 14. For each additional 1 V applied to Pin 10 the output voltage
increases by -2.375 V.'
Not high enough for equalize though. I don't know how much the voltage sense pin can compensate. You might be able to drop the sense voltage by a volt or 2 to get a boost on the output.
-Greg
Found a data sheet on that but alas it says "Output Voltage Range • +43.2 to +52.8 VDC via trim pot" which is not even enough for floating the batts.
Looks like DC into a charge controller is your best bet. Or the elusive 48VDC alternator.
http://otherpower.com/listeraxialflux.shtml
and
http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=50.0
hi all,
There are a number of alternator builder that build a 48v alternator on the Leece Neville 4900 carcus, the problem is i don't know any one who makes a 3-step regulator for the beast.
I think there are a couple of options, but they would need to be tested.
1. 48v alternator(as mentioned here), and a Balmar 624(24v) regulator, using a voltage divider on the bat sense wire, and a 48 to 24v 2-1 linear dc dc power supply on the field wire.
2. using 2 Leece Neville 24 volt alternator with isolated ground, then either series the outputs or use each alternator to charge half each of the 48 bank at 24v, using the Balmar 624 bat. sense off the middle 24 volt of the bank.
I think it might be done...but BobG...would have a better handle...on the alligators of such a convoluted rig.
The next best thing to do might just be to call/email Balmar tech support, and ask if they could serve the market in any way.
Lloyd
i am a bit late to the party fella's so bare with me if i repeat something already stated
yes leece neville makes at least 2 units capable of 48volt nominal, however one is designed to do
48volts at 85amps continuous and not really made to be a battery charger, the other is a 54volt AC
unit 3 phase with AC outputs made to drive a special inverter for service trucks.
to my knowledge they are both hard to get, and/or discontinued by leece neville, and when available are very expensive
often well over a grand each.
i have one of each in my collection, and in my opinion neither is capable of the efficiency we need
both being connected star in the stator leads to higher resistance, and being built on the fat core leece
neville means there already is too much copper to keep the resistance down even connected in wye.
my white paper describes running the 555 jho prestolite at 24volts using a mc612balmar which is a 12volt regulator
there is now reason that the 555 could not be pressed into doing 48 volts charging using the same scheme
however one would need to turn the alternator upwards of 6500rpm to do so. efficiency should exceed 80% and longevity should
be pretty good if you limit to less than 100amps max output.
now before anyone starts moaning about 12volt excitation for a 48volt alternator, bare in mind that both of the leece neville alternators
(48 and 54volt) versions use 12volt rotors! so there is no reason we can't do the same.
before the move i have been working with a leece neville doing 48volt nominal charging running at 57.6volts dc and 100amps, the machine had to be fitted with a water cooled stator (designed, built and installed by me) in order to run at that level for protracted periods of time. while it works it is too complex for general use in my opinion.
sometime this winter i hope to do more work using the 555 on a 48volt system, which is something i need for my exceltech 48volt inverters anyway. i will be building and testing using the r175 changfa which is about 6hp so it should be close to what a 6/1 listeroid could do.
bob g
Gregger2k THANKS!!!! I don't know what it means, but that is more information than I've seen before.
If anyone knows what any of that means, please let me know. ie.... put 240v AC across pins X and Y, and you will get DC voltage from pins Z and J. Put Q resistance across pins D and F for output of L.......
That was fun... ;D
let me digest the datasheet a while and I'll get back to you..
QuoteIf anyone knows of a source for a big 48VDC alternator
Define big? Direct drive?
This looks like a viable solution http://www.alten-dc.com/products/item/142-48-volt-100-amp.html (http://www.alten-dc.com/products/item/142-48-volt-100-amp.html). All that it will take is $$$.
Note how that website says "call for price". $$$$$ Muuuhhhaaaahhaaaaahaaaa. (Evil laugh.) ;)
RCAvictim has talked about having a big old honking 50 some odd volt dc generator head. IIRC he spoke about being willing to maybe part with it?
Quote from: bschwartz on October 05, 2011, 02:09:18 PM
Greg, if you find that info, ill buy you a bunch of beer!!!!
I bought one of those a year ago, and never got it working.
The seller was no help.
I've been using a couple of these for a year now. I have a PDF spec. sheet if it helps which I'm happy to share. Pins 1-4 are +V1, pins 5-8 are V1 RETURN for the DC output and to get the unit to turn on I've jumpered pin 12 (module enable) to pin 16 (another V1 RETURN).
I forget the sense of +V1 and V1 RETURN but I have a recollection that its is reversed; a quick check with a meter will sort that out.
In case it is of interest, I have 2 of these with the DC outputs wired in series (since they appear to be floating). This gives me 96V to feed to my charge controller; handy if you need to get the voltage up there to do more than a bulk charge. The spec. sheet suggests the trim pot can bump the output to ~53V but that's not enough for me to absorb/equalize.
Quote from: mbryner on October 06, 2011, 11:45:26 AM
Note how that website says "call for price". $$$$$ Muuuhhhaaaahhaaaaahaaaa. (Evil laugh.) ;)
I found the PRICE on another site. $6k for a stripper to around $$$$$$$10k for the whole shebang. It wasn't clear if the unit does a 3 stage charge or not. And since they didn't say, I'd assume it doesn't.
On a side note. During a generator run this AM the water pump kicked on, it draws about 14a 120vac and will drag the voltage on that leg down quite a bit. The transformer did it's job and voltages stayed fairly balanced, it did get a bit warm though (95F).
Gregger2k and Yellowhead,
YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME!!! It made power!! The key was connecting pin 12 to pin 16.
Glad I didn't junk this thing.
It made 47.9V.
So, next question. What do I adjust to bring the voltage up?
I think if I directly connect it to the battery bank at 52.5 volts, the Outback will invert it and turn my meter backwards at night (like it normally does with the solar panels during the day).
After answering that question, please give me a mailing address to send the beer ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: bschwartz on October 06, 2011, 06:02:46 PM
...After answering that question, please give me a mailing address to send the beer ;D ;D ;D
Can't you just pour it into the intertubes ?
I found the trimmer pot. it is inside the case about 1/2" to the left of the positronic connector.
Easily adjusted the voltage up to 52.5.
Now I just need to figure a way to safely connect everything to test. This may take some more time, but I think this has the potential to convert listeroid 240V AC power to a clean stable input for my grid tie outback. It may not be the most efficient, but it will be an interesting experiment for anyone wanting to safely (with the anti-islanding grid tie inverter) turn their electric meter backwards. Legality is between you and your power company ::) ::)
I'm glad to hear you got it working. I might have to pick one of these up for myself, the power factor correction should be kind to the generator and keep the winding losses down.
You might try to add 1 or 2 small forward biased diodes between the output and the sense terminal. This should simulate a voltage drop in the wiring and raise the output .7 volts per diode. I don't know how much correction the unit is able to provide but you must stay below the over voltage protection set point or it will shut down. Might be worth a try anyway.