Some manufacturers are advertising their product as "EMP proof" or able to withstand a sizable solar storm.
I am wondering what makes an EMP proof generator head and how does the "ST" head rate ?
A very strong magnetic field passing over a set of coils sounds like a recipe for significant current induction.
Does it matter if a unit is PM, or Brushless, or with-brushes?
What is the best way to protect a gen head from EMP (solar storm) type bombardment?
I have read that a unit should have it's own isolated ground and be disconnected from any system or load during a EMP moment.
I think this will become an important topic in the next year or so.
Any ideas or knowledge in this regard?
veggie
Just thinking out loud.
On an ST wouldn't removing the brushes open the circuit and limit the inductance/reactance within the genhead? by isolating the armature?
I would think disconnection from all external circuits would be a good idea. Perhaps it would help to disconnect the wires as apposed to just opening the switch or breaker to prevent arc over thru the
switchgear.
Very interesting subject!
I would think that a permanant magnet unit could be demagged or partially so.
Rob
For electrical appliances & generators to be at risk would mean being connected in to the miles-long 'antenna' that is the public utility transmission line network. A 100-foot extension cord to a table saw would not place your ST head in any danger from 99.9% of solar storms. Even a direct hit of a once-in-a-thousand year storm such as the one that hit in 1859 would not kill anything without microprocessor or embedded IC controls and having lots (100's of feet) of exposed wiring.
A geomagnetic storm is very mild compared to a weapon that produces an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) - on surviving true EMP from an advanced attacker, most basic alternators and generators would survive but their control electronics and rectifier circuits may not, especially if they were connected in to any larger circuit. But that special designed fission bomb would have to be lit off 250 miles in space, past the space station and most satellite orbits, and there are only a few nations able to pull off a stunt like that. Even a city-killer terrorist weapon would only have an EMP radius of 10's of miles, just to horizon, if that - the thick air at ground level snubs the high energy particles before they can reach the earths magnetic field and get amplified.
I've seen old timers having spares wrapped in foil and placed in closed metal ammo cans stored in a metal shed - but you can bet just as soon as someone happily repaired something there would be a repeat burst just to snuff repaired items. Having stuff well grounded and permanent lines run inside metal conduit is about the only investment that might ever pay off as far as EMP shielding goes.
Would you treat a brushless generator any different than a brush type ?
veggie
i think any of our generators will fair just fine as long as the case is grounded properly and disconnected from any long transmission lines
the st head (brush type) should be just fine, or at least easily repaired.
a pm head should also be just fine, although harder to repair
a brushless ?? depending on type, i would worry about those that use diodes on the rotor
however having spare diodes would at least make it repairable.
some spares in a metal can, in a metal shed, well grounded is about as good as most of us can manage, and probably safe
enough for damn near anything short of a direct gamma ray beam from some collapsing star. anything like that is going to
sterilize our planet to the point that none of us would be alive anyway.
thankfully the odds of that happening is probably very remote, a once in a billion year event.
bob g
Quote from: mobile_bob on March 03, 2011, 03:01:14 PM
thankfully the odds of that happening is probably very remote, a once in a billion year event.
bob g
Bob (and others)
Have a look at this....
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2009/21jan_severespaceweather/ (http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2009/21jan_severespaceweather/)
Next solar storm peak is May 2013
veggie
There is no such thing as "EMP proof", or tornado proof, or hurricane proof, or earthquake proof -
My house is tornado resistant, but one F5 tornado and it's all over!
There is EMP resistant - and that is a matter of degree. How big of EMP determines whether it survives.
Like others have said - disconnect the leads, put it in a metal box (note: its case IS a metal box).
At some point the EMP is big enough that humans don't survive, and it doesn't matter if the generator survives.
Might be better to make sure your powder is dry and barrel clean - you're going to need it. Imagine human nature at its worst as a few million people who aren't prepared head out of the city in ravenous hordes looking for food. There you sit, the only house for miles with the lights on and the noise of a generator running. Once all the cars and everything else stops, you'll be surprised at how far you can hear a lone generator running.
And yes, Iran has the ability to deliver the bomb. Just take the launchers they've got and put them on a container ship, they can launch from 50-100 mile offshore. Fortunately, they don't have the bomb, and thanks to stuxnet they may not get it this year, either.
It's my understanding that the EMP voltages induced are quite high. However, the current is low. Precision electronics are at risk but robust electrical components are at less risk. In my case, I am at high risk for direct lightning strikes, and I've lost many electrical/electronic things over the years here in South Florida.
A recent lightning strike took out all sorts of electronics in my house. But the only wires that were burned out were the small telephone wires.
I built my genset with a plug on the generator head "box". That way, it's never connected to anything unless it's in use. And, from what I can tell, that's the secret to being EMP, Solar Flare and Lightning Strike "resistant".
So far, so good.
Here is an interesting article with some good data on EMP.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1549/2
QuoteNext solar storm peak is May 2013
I'm curious if this transformer damage ever occurs when there isn't a solar storm of some sort?
Casey
Man made EMP – there is no shortage of Middle Eastern nut jobs who hate the U.S. Scud missile technology is 1960s and readily available today. Remember how in the 1980s Iraq increased the range of their missiles by cutting them in half and welding in an extra long middle section full or fuel. While structurally unsound, it did function most of the time, and increased both altitude and total down range capability.
So what if you took your modified scud missile or something similar, built a launch pad for it into the cargo hold of some tramp freighter, parked your ship off the east coast of the U.S. and launched your low yield kilo ton weapon into the atmosphere up to an altitude of a 100 miles or so, say between Washington D.C and New York? You would have made an effective EMP attack on our homeland, this is very bad. What could be worse, is having more than one missile ready to launch or deploying multiple freighters.
Building a kiloton yield nuclear weapon has probably already been done or being done either by that nut in Iran or the pot belly pig in North Korea. Personally, I believe an EMP attack presents a credible threat to our safety here in the U.S.
I can report the following has been alleged.
During the cold war the old Soviet Union made something like 700 suitcase nukes. After the union disintegrated it is reported something like 100 of these soviet made portable nuclear devices RA-115/Ra-116 (aka 'mini nukes') have gone missing and are presently unaccounted for.
It gets better. The Soviets lost their nuclear armed submarine the Kursk when it sank after a violent chemical explosion that sent the ship to the bottom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_K-141_Kursk.
Before the submarine was successfully recovered, all 22 Russian Granit (or Granite) or P-700 missiles (You can check that one in Wikipedia), a 10 meter long heavy ~7 ton heavily armored cruise missle that travels at Mach 2.5 and designed as an anti ship missile, each containing a half megaton (500 kiloton or more than 25 Hiroshimas each) warhead were stolen. The Russians undertook an elaborate ruse to deceive the world into believing the missiles had been recovered intact still in the submarine and were safely disposed of. They were not. Wikipedia says that the Russians claimed vehemently that there were no nuclear tips in these missles. What would you expect them to say?
Either one or three of these missles are accounted for as either one or three have since been flown and crashed into targets. At least one of the flown missles contained the nuke warhead but it did not go off when it crashed into it's target due to a malfunctioning detonator. That leaves 19 or 21 of the missles presently unaccounted for.
Find out all about it here. Watch all of the segments. Come to your own conclusions.
http://www.disclose.tv/forum/dimitri-khalezov-wtc-nuclear-demolition-full-playlist-t21675.html
Alternate source and more info.
http://www.dimitri-khalezov-video.com/
Sleep well my friends. If you live in an apartment in the Sears Tower in Chicago you might want to move.
I USED to think (before 9/11) that an EMP was highly unlikely - now, I think that is only a matter of time until some nut-case gets enough $$$ in one pile to make it happen . . .
Which brings me to my question: How is a solar-panel/battery/generator set-up that is wired to sell excess power back to the power company going to fare when this happens?
I THINK i have one thing going for me, in that I will only use the generator for 12 hours a week for 25 weeks a year and when it isn't being used, I will pull the disconnect that hoooks it to the sytem - but will induced voltage from an EMP "jump-the-gap" in my little disconnect, or should I use something like a set of cartridge fuses and physially pull them out of the system when it is down - thus leavijng a gap of a couple of inches in the circuit instead of a couple of tenths of an inch???
I think it is a forgone conclusion that the inverter/battery charger will be smoked history, especially since it is hooked to the grid - though in the winter, when I don't have any power to sell, I suppose it could have a cartridge fuse setup, too. But I'm not sure that will help for an EMP that can get into the system through the solar panels / wiring . . . .
Also, what effect/affect does an EMP have on a set of solar panels, other then frying any back-current limiting diodes in the system???
On third thought, I am not sure I want to be sitting there with the lights on when the rest of the country is black!!! Can you say: Invitation for foul play???
Input is appreciated.
Regardz,
Wayne Stayton
things connected to long cables, are going to die. Long depends on how close to the event you are. 2 feet underground, may help, if the ground is damp. Dry is useless. A disconnected genset will likely survive. 30' feeders from PV to controller - Long depends on how close to the event you are!
Increasing the air spacing from the mains terminals and your private dwelling circuit with an appropriate disconnect sounds like a good idea to me. I would not stop at disconnecting the two power conductors however. Neutral conductor will also be your enemy in a conducted EMP scenario and must also be isolated. One of those fused pull-outs for 3-phase with the neutral fuse in the pullout defeated so no fuse, just copper link in the pullout ought to be a better solution than a regular disconnect switch from a flashover potential perspective.
Code may not permit disconnecting oneself from the neutral. You might risk becoming a criminal in order to better protect yourself.
"Solar storms" adhere to a predictable 11 year cycle. Ham radio operators look forward to these 11 year cyclical solar storm peaks because we can communicate around the world using HF radios (skipping our RF energy off the ionosphere) using only a few micro watts of RF energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionosphere
The concern is with "geomagnetic storms" which are not predictable (at least not yet), but which fortunately have an extremely low probability of occurrence. Nuclear weapon induced EMP is an entirely different matter which is also not predictable but perhaps not low probability either. However, I truly pity the fool that tries to make a go of this on the US. We now have much higher energy surgical weapons that make nuclear weapons look like stone clubs. I hope I live long enough to enjoy the entertainment value if this happens.
Bob B.
rcavictim:
Good, no ECELLENT point about the neutral disconnect!
I've got to get NYSEG out to look at the whole mess before they will turn it on, so I can ask, in a round about way, if I can disconnet the nuetral when I'm not hooked to the net . . . but I have been known to be a criminal before, so a negative answer doesn't necessarily rule it out!! <grin>
If I have the 3/4" (5/8", something like that!) copper bar driven in the ground 48" like they specify for grounding, that should satisfy everything IF I'm completely disconnected from the power company, no???
sailawayrb:
You say: " I truly pity the fool that tries to make a go of this on the US. . . "
I agree that they will probably make Osama look hale and hearty when we get done with them . . . BUT, these terrorist types seem to think that it is an "honor" to be splattered by the US military, so I don't think that will do much to stop them when/if they get a big enough pile of $$ to buy a cheap, tired ship and put an EMP weapon aboard . . . I imagine that we "look" for this type of stuff that is wending its way towards us, but I don't think that you need a real big ship to launch a rocket from near the coast to high enough to make a BIG EMP "splash". I'm pretty sure that the only things that have protected us, so far, is that most of the nut jobs are relatively poor and technologically challenged - the latter being easy to understand, if you have spent your life leading a camel across places we wouldn't pee on! <grin>
I hope that our technology keeps advancing enough to keep us one jump ahead of any "nuts with money" but I am afraid that, sooner or later, its gonna happen.
That's my opinion, which is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it!
Regardz,
Wayne Stayton
Quote from: WStayton on May 06, 2011, 07:32:03 PM
sailawayrb:
You say: " I truly pity the fool that tries to make a go of this on the US. . . "
I agree that they will probably make Osama look hale and hearty when we get done with them . . . BUT, these terrorist types seem to think that it is an "honor" to be splattered by the US military, so I don't think that will do much to stop them when/if they get a big enough pile of $$ to buy a cheap, tired ship and put an EMP weapon aboard . . . I imagine that we "look" for this type of stuff that is wending its way towards us, but I don't think that you need a real big ship to launch a rocket from near the coast to high enough to make a BIG EMP "splash". I'm pretty sure that the only things that have protected us, so far, is that most of the nut jobs are relatively poor and technologically challenged - the latter being easy to understand, if you have spent your life leading a camel across places we wouldn't pee on! <grin>
I hope that our technology keeps advancing enough to keep us one jump ahead of any "nuts with money" but I am afraid that, sooner or later, its gonna happen.
That's my opinion, which is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it!
Regardz,
Wayne Stayton
I kind of view the camel jockey terrorists as horse fly's...more of a nuisance than a significant threat. Sure, if you are personally affected, it is certainly a personal tragedy and worthy of a national reckoning. However, we lose more people as a nation to drunk driving than we lost in 9/11 or the subsequent war casualties combined. Sure, there is little doubt that some religious fanatic or similar nut job will eventually cause nuclear events (likely dirty bombs) in some of our cities. However, in the big picture, that's not really all that significant either. Japan recovered from our WW2 nuclear reckoning and they will recover from their recent earthquake/tsunami/nuclear misfortune too. In some ways, 9/11 was one of the best things to happen to us...like Pearl Harbor, it woke us up. Our military technology and weaponry has advanced more in the past 5 years than in the previous 50 years combined...wish I could share more. I suspect that the smart money has already figured this out and may be responsible for some of the political changes sweeping this planet. I really do pity the nut job that places the wrong bet...but I sort of look forward to it too. At some point the camel jockeys will also experience a woman's liberation movement and that will certainly curtail their jihadist adventures. :)
Bob B.
rm /
deeiche:
Um, I thought that the Chinese had a program to obtain out technology now . . . called "THEFT", no? <smile>
Why pay for it when they can steal it, or least most of it, for nothing more than a few bowls of rice a day for their agents - and they just write them off when they get caught!!!
They do seem willing to buy/lease small pieces of our technology, but maybe that's just to keep us coming to the trough???
As you can tell, I would be a miserable failure as an international diplomat, in that I pretty much subscribe to the Curtis-LeMay/Barry-Goldwater school which says "Nuke 'em till they glow!" <grin> (Truthfully, I'm a little more moderate than that, but only a little!)
sailawayrb:
If the terrorists stick to their present methodology of taking out small targets in an ugly and bloody way, I agree that, in the larger scheme of things, they are more of a nusiance than a credible national threat. The danger lies in them "upscaling" to something like a EMP bomb that could take out everything electric in half of the country in one whack. I am sure that they have to be planning on this, at some point, when they have enough money and technology to make that happen - fortunately they don't have enough money yet and I doubt that they have the technology, either, but you can bet that somebody, somewhere is working on it!
If they reduced everything east of the MIssippi back to horses and buggies, it would be a mess that would make WWII look like playing in the sand box, and I think it behooves all of us, and more especially those of us with some alternative means of power generation, to be advised of the threat and to act accordingly, as in be prepared for a long black out and the lack of social order that would follow. Maybe I'm an extremeist, in fact, I hope that I am, but I would rather be prepared and not need it than the other way around! <grin>
I sort of look at the preparedness situation as needing a little "insurance" which is one of the few things that you buy and hope that you never need! <smile>
Do I believe that we are all going to be bombed back to the stone age? - No, not even remotely. Have I stocked up with two years of special long storage food like the preppers? No, but I do can some of my own produce/jams/etc. Do I have evrything in a faraday cage? No - but I do have a few hard to replace extra solid state things salted away, wrapped in foil and in an ammo can just in case! And I do have a garden and am getting things together to have a few rabbits and chickens and goats, at least partly, so that if everything crashed, I would have something to start with and build upon and not be starting from scratch - but then, I am retired and it is a "hobby" which keeps me from getting in worse trouble with my spare time!! <grin>
So, on balance, are terrorists a real threat this minute? Nope! Could they be? You becha!! Should we do things to prepare? That's everybody's own call - personally I think a little preparation and fore thought is good but living your life around the expection that something terrible is going to happen is bad - but that's me . . . everybody has to make up their own mind on where in the preparedness-unperpared continum they are going to be.
That's my opinion, YMMV! <grin>
Regardz,
Wayne Stayton
rm /
deeiche:
You said: "Just keep reminding anyone you know that every time our US Gov't announces another "job creating program" or "tax reduction bill" or anything else that keeps our national debt rising . . . "
How'd the US thieves, err, um, . . . government get in this? <grin>
We'd probably all be better off if we lined up the total govermnment cadre, State and Federal, and summarily shot two out of three of them! I'll even chip in for the shells! <grin>
I can't see where the US Government has done much, except hurt me, one way or another, lately. I paid into Social Security for about forty years and now they tell me that I'm a drag on the economy because they have to pay some of it back to me! I wish I could get a deal like that where I collected a percentage of somebody's hard earned wages, in a "savings" account, no less, for forty years and then, when they came to get some of it back, I could just write them off as a drag on the federal government and keep their money in my pocket - but, maybe, I am unique in taking issue with being stolen from?
As for the NY group of State thieves and robbers, a/k/a legislators, they seem to take delight in stuffing the taxpayer's money in their pockets and then they cry big crocodile tears when they get caught (regularly) and spend a few years in Sing-Sing or one of the Federal Houses of Corrections(?). (? added because I have never seen any evidence of them "correcting" anything!)
A joke for you: How do they define job security for "lawmakers" in NY? Give up? Prison!! That is ONE thing that the feds do for the citizens of NY; they put a few legislators in the pokey every year, so I guess the are not ALL, as in 100%, bad!
Ok, I'll get down off of my high horse now, before I blow a blood vessel and have ANOTHER stroke! <grin> Government is a BAD-WORD, though, at least as far as I'm concerned!
Thanx for putting up with my drivel!
Regardz,
Wayne Stayton
Wayne, YOU don't need that money you put into SS. Obviously you've lived without that money this long, it should be given to the big oil companies to 'encourage' them to invest in research......
rm /
Hi Guys,
As moderator it's my duty to help keep the topic on track.
In this case ... "EMP proof generator heads and the ST models".
Politics and finance in the "General" section please. ;)
veggie:
Sorry about the drift/rant but sometime, most of the time actually, I just can't help myself! <grin>
I'll make an effort to stay closer to the subject line hereafter!
Thanx for steering us, or least me, back on track!
Regardz,
Wayne Stayton