Last night my stc quit generating at a time where both washer and dryer where on.
I ran down tho the engine and found it roaring at about 1100 RPM (6/1)!!!!!!!!
That was scaring!!!! Mostly because I have to go past it in order to kill it!!!
Does anyone know where to find an electronic govenor, "a ready to fit one"?
I have tryed to find one here, but had no luck so far.
Just a thought....
Perhaps one way to protect from over revving is to rig two voltage sensing relays to the output of the ST.
One opens if the voltage goes above the threshold (over revving)
One opens if the voltage falls below a threshold (ST quits, voltage falls to zero and the engine revs up).
This assumes one would want to kill the engine anytime the ST quits operating.
Both relays are wired in series to a solenoid which allows the rack to work while energized.
If either relay opens, the solenoid releases and a return spring closes the rack.
Something like this (voltage and current sensing relays)...
http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?FamilyId=225&TrailType=Sub&Trail=907 (http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?FamilyId=225&TrailType=Sub&Trail=907)
Others on the forum are much more knowledgeable in electronics. Maybe someone can elaborate on such a system?
veggie
Thanks both of you. I'll look closer into these Murpy gauges , and get myself a decent governor.
The most important thing will be an emergency shutdown, or this engine will cost me my life......
Oiler
So what happened, when the gen quit why did not the governor on the engine hold it at about 650 rpm +or-?
Did the belt come off?
On my 10/1 I had a circuit breaker open because the wire on it was lose causing it to heat up. That caused the load to drop and my 10/1 ran up in rpm, I had to run 100 feet to get to it :P :P
Turned out my governor would control the engine ok under load but when the load completely left unexpectedly it had a hard time because it could not completely close the rack. The vertical linkage was just a little to long If i remember right.
Billswan
Quote from: oiler on August 08, 2010, 01:50:02 AM
I ran down tho the engine and found it roaring at about 1100 RPM (6/1)!!!!!!!!
On the bright side....you now know your flywheels are good. :)
veggie
Quote from: veggie on August 11, 2010, 07:49:59 AM
Quote from: oiler on August 08, 2010, 01:50:02 AM
I ran down tho the engine and found it roaring at about 1100 RPM (6/1)!!!!!!!!
On the bright side....you now know your flywheels are good. :)
veggie
Man!! What a pucker factor that must have been. Just how tight is pucker cubed? I would have freaked.
Ron
Billswan. What happened was the soldered connection on the positive slipring failed.
The last month or so, the governor has become more and more lazy. This is the main reason foe me to find an electronic one, not an easy task here though >:(
Veggie. Yes they are indeed good, but it was a scary way of finding out.....
Ron. I did freak out, but there was no alternatives but to reach behind the flywheel :o :o
Everything is up and running again :) Still no emergency stop though :-\
QuoteJust how tight is pucker cubed?
I'd say enough to bite nails in half!!! :o
Ralph
[/quote]
Man!! What a pucker factor that must have been. Just how tight is pucker cubed? I would have freaked.
Ron
[/quote]
All the 2 seaters I learned to fly in had both left and right seats chewed up right down the middle between your checks.
When asked what happened here, the instructor simply said "you'll see". ;D
Randall
All the 2 seaters I learned to fly in had both left and right seats chewed up right down the middle between your checks.
When asked what happened here, the instructor simply said "you'll see". ;D
Randall
[/quote]
Too funny! I laughed till I cried.
Oiler, If I thought it would happen again I'll be damned if I didn't rig a string to the compression release or a ball valve on the intake with a rope tied to it or something. I would have tried to choke it to death with a from a distance with a water hose or ...... I don't think that I have the stones to walk up to it an do a manual shutdown.
I'm not too bright though...you never really know what you are capable of till it comes right down to it.
I'm really glad that everything worked out and nobody was injured. Underwear can be replaced.
Ron
Well. It all happend so fast. No time to think, just act..... :o
It is my plan to rig a co2 bottltle up with a hose to the intake, and a second one to fight fire in the engine room.
Quote from: oiler on August 16, 2010, 05:51:58 AM
It is my plan to rig a co2 bottltle up with a hose to the intake, and a second one to fight fire the engine room.
I'll bet the bottle will empty before the flywheels coast down.
Any treatments for cast iron ? Heat and slow cool down? Cryogenic - Liquid Nitrogen, and then slow (5 day) warm up ? They use cryo treatments for other metals ...
I can confirm that CO2 works very well for emergency shutdown. I can't imagine another approach that would so ensure shutdown. You do need to size regulator, hose, and all fittings to ensure that you achieve adequate gasoeus CO2 flow rate at engine intake to starve engine of O2. I reckon a standard CO2 bottle would be adequate for several emergency shutdowns. I designed my system so as to not be dependent on having any electrical power or human intervention to accomplish the task.
http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=351
Safety Precaution: Since CO2 displaces O2, in a confined space it can also starve you of O2 and kill you! :o
Bob B.
Veggie,
Your B&B electronics post started me thinking and searching the web. I would love to find a reasonable commercially available over / under voltage relay that I could use for an over speed or under speed ST generator failure (I.e. Broken belt). However, I just cannot find one anywhere. I know there are people on the forum who have built very complex systems but I do not have the electronics background to replicate these systems. I am sure there are people on the forum that know what I am looking for and can direct me to a source. This is what I seek:
An over / under AC voltage sensing relay (230 VAC), with an adjustable time delay, and powered by 12 VDC is what I seek. The 12 VDC is critical because if my generator system fails, I want to use the 12 VDC system to trip and power the shut down process. In a perfect world, a high / low frequency sensor would be nice, but the one I found was over $300 and not affordable.
Anyone with a commercially available AC voltage-sensing relay with this criteria please post a link so I can buy a couple and integrate them into my Listeroid systems.
Bruce
Horsepoor.....Howbout something along these lines http://www.dhgate.com/speed-control-unit-esd5500e/r-ff8080812af6d550012af7cf5fc11a5a.html (http://www.dhgate.com/speed-control-unit-esd5500e/r-ff8080812af6d550012af7cf5fc11a5a.html)
Also check their other offerings. http://stores.ebay.com/sparkerinstruments/category363297119-/_i.html?_fsub=363297119&_sid=778701669&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
(http://stores.ebay.com/sparkerinstruments/category363297119-/_i.html?_fsub=363297119&_sid=778701669&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322)
Lloyd
Perhaps something like this....
http://www.wescodirect.com/direct/Products/ProductListDetail.aspx?pik=37494&productId=37494 (http://www.wescodirect.com/direct/Products/ProductListDetail.aspx?pik=37494&productId=37494)
If the voltage from the Gen head drops below the preset 70-120 range, the relay opens (or closes ?)
veggie
Ooops ! I just noticed that they are $1300 each :(
BINGO !
Monitors single phase voltage between 20 - 240 (user adjustable).
N/O and N/C relays.
Good price !
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ICM-Line-Voltage-Monitor-5KPX9?Pid=search (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ICM-Line-Voltage-Monitor-5KPX9?Pid=search)
veggie
Use a automatic gencontrol unit w/ overspeed protection. Use a solenoid that holds the fuel rack open when activated, but is spring loaded so fuel supply is cut when not activated. No power or fault or overspeed shuts engine down.
I tried Monicon controllers, but the starter relay output was faulty on 2 of them. Now I'm ordering a controller from these guys: http://www.gencontrol.co.uk/
Marcus
Marcus,
Regarding the controller you ordered....
How does the controller sense an overspeed situation ?
Do you need to add magnetic pick-ups to the flywheel ?
veggie
veggie,
It senses off the frequency from the 120/240 VAC from the ST head. Overspeed or underspeed will change the frequency and release the fuel solenoid. It also means that if a belt breaks, the generator will shut down, too. You can request specific over-/under-frequency setpoints (i.e. their recommended is 69 Hz and 45 Hz for US electrical systems). I haven't quite ordered from them yet; still picking the options. Don't know if it would work w/ just a magnetic flywheel pickup, but it might since it appears the electronics are just sensing the frequency. I like the sensing off the ST head better anyway because your engine will shutdown if there is a fault anywhere between the flywheel and AC output. Plug in a coolant sensor and oil pressure sensor and you have the whole thing taken care of for less than $200.
Marcus
Wait, correction: it would work fine, but NOT w/ just a flywheel magnetic sensor. The flywheel is rotating at 650 Hz (for a listeroid). So you'd have to convert that to a number the engine controller could deal with, since it's expecting AC freq range not flywheel freq. My bad. Surely you all caught that already..... :)
Gentlemen,
Thank you all for you prompt and interesting replies. I think I found the less than $10 solution for under voltage (broken belt).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400165010788&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400165010788&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT)
And this plugs into an 11 pin socket (27E123)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230561905984&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230561905984&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT)
I can set this relay to lock open when receiving 120 - 240 VAC. If / when it looses VAC, the relay will close, thus activating my 12 VDC rack pulling shut down system. Now, this doesn't provide a solution for over voltage, but for $10 I take it for an engine shut down due to broken belt, rectifier burn out, AVR failure, etc. What I really like is this will sense no power to the water pump (120 VAC Grundfos Brute home hot water circulating pump) which should prevent most over heat situations.
Thank you for your posts, I am looking hard at the Grainer $79 sensor also.
Bruce
Just wondering....
When we overspeed an ST5 generator head, does it make more voltage? or just a higher frequency ? or both ?
If it make a higher voltage, then we can use the Grainger module.
veggie.
Veggie,
It might depend if an AVR is included in the circuit. I suspect that if the AVR were involved, the device will try to raise or lower the voltage depending upon what the sensor sees. With a broken belt, the AVR will eventually not be able to maintain any voltage and the system will stop.
Now I wonder, if an engine is over speeding in the 1200-rpm area, might the AVR be able to hold the voltage down to a level, lower or below the upper trip limit. If the acceleration continues and the RPMs increase, something is going have a catastrophic failure (i.e. 2000 rpm), and the whole thing will come to a stop.
It would be nice to have an inexpensive frequency upper / lower limit trip device. I have looked but cannot find one cheap enough for my meager funds: Installing a flywheel sensor for rpm is one option, but the expense has held me back.
Sure would like to find a reasonably priced frequency meter, that can measure frequency from the generator head and trip on 65 Hz or 55 Hz. Found one on the web in Sweden with trips at 45 Hz and 55 Hz but they don't make a 60 Hz version. Anyone know of a reasonably priced trip meter source please advise.
Bruce
You know, after some time spent scratching me head, I think I will incorporate some sort of deadman switch that can be activated from some distance away. Just in case Mr. Murphy makes an unscheduled appearance. It may be only a small nylon rope, but at least I won't have to get within grabbin' distance.
Ron
veggie,
Both, unless AVR involved, then AVR will fail above a certain point. Try running slow: you'll get both low voltage and low freq. Since a standard ST head has just a simple bridge rectifier and multiple coils, so there's nothing to stop voltage from increasing.
Quote from: mbryner on June 05, 2011, 09:51:57 PM
veggie,
Both, unless AVR involved, then AVR will fail above a certain point. Try running slow: you'll get both low voltage and low freq. Since a standard ST head has just a simple bridge rectifier and multiple coils, so there's nothing to stop voltage from increasing.
Thanks Marcus
Good to know the grainger item will probably work for applications using ST heads (without AVRs).
Veggie
Quote from: Horsepoor on June 04, 2011, 03:01:17 AM
An over / under AC voltage sensing relay (230 VAC), with an adjustable time delay, and powered by 12 VDC is what I seek. The 12 VDC is critical because if my generator system fails, I want to use the 12 VDC system to trip and power the shut down process. In a perfect world, a high / low frequency sensor would be nice, but the one I found was over $300 and not affordable.
Anyone with a commercially available AC voltage-sensing relay with this criteria please post a link so I can buy a couple and integrate them into my Listeroid systems.
Bruce
Bruce, what is your budget? This link is $99.00 http://cgi.ebay.com/Deep-Sea-Controller-Manual-and-Auto-Start-Module-DSE701-/300555320245?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fa7e3bb5 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Deep-Sea-Controller-Manual-and-Auto-Start-Module-DSE701-/300555320245?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fa7e3bb5)
OVERSPEED PROTECTION
The engine over speed trip setting can be calibrated at the rear of the module for 50Hz or 60Hz nominal operation (57Hz or 68Hz trip respectively).
During engine cranking and for the first 10 seconds after the engine starts running, all alarm conditions are suspended (overspeed is enabled) to allow the engine to reach its optimum running speed.
And it uses 12 volt control voltage.
Lloyd
Lloyd,
Thank you. That is in my budget = 2 1/2 bails of "special" hay for wives arabian horse.
If the only features needed are over-speed and under-speed, you might consider something like this from Time-Mark controls.
If you contact them and get a price, please post it for us to see. There may be others who are interested in this.
Spec sheet below......
veggie
Here's what I did:
http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=351
See CO2 Emergency Shutdown System photos and system description. I don't need or use AVR, so if one does use one, that would certainly need to be addressed.
Here's what I used for the tripping:
http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?FamilyId=225&TrailType=Sub&Trail=907
One will likely need the time delay function to avoid nuisance trips.
Here's the solid state relay I used for the disconnect:
http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?FamilyId=224&TrailType=Sub&Trail=907
One can occasionally find both of these on ebay for less than $20 each.
Bob B.
Lloyd,
I've been very busy since your June 6th 2011 post and I am still thinking about your comments on the "Deep Sea Controller DSE701AS". Updates:
I've cleaned up my generator control panel, detais posted on another thread. Then using $10 worth of old relays, I now have a simple and functional no voltage, broken belt, generator componet failure, etc, shut down system fully operational.
I am just about finished with my bridge rectifer VDC filtering circuits on all my listeroids. The posts under http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=1833.45 (http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=1833.45) (Ronmar May 4th 2011 post) was extremely helpful. Ordered and received my $75 O-Scope (DSO Nano) so I can do quick and dirty basic checks.
Now, I need to make a decision on the DSE701AS. It looks like this controller monitors frequency from the ST generator head, and I can program user defined trips for low and high frequency (I.e. 55 Hz & 65 Hz). I do not want a controller that requires installation of a sensor in the flywheel to determine frequency, I am looking for a controller that will monitor VAC from the generator head and thus frequency. I believe this unit will do that and it operates on 12 VDC which is just what I want. But - yes but, I am having trouble finding an online user manual to ensure these features. If you are familar with the unit can you advise.
Bruce
HoresPoor
Good job. Here is the link to the manual http://www.deepseaplc.com/support/product-downloads/dse-genset/manual-start-controllers/dse701 (http://www.deepseaplc.com/support/product-downloads/dse-genset/manual-start-controllers/dse701)
Won't be long and you'll have what you want.
A job never gets finished unless it gets started.
Lloyd
Lloyd,
Thank you, and I've been busy today getting ready for what I thought might be a hurricane in south Florida, but now it appears unlikely. Just finished experimenting on my ST 15 gen head loaded at 40 amp and 230 VAC. Used 8000 uF off of the bridge rectifier which raised my output ST voltage to 238 VAC and a better overall wave form. I am pleased with the results for what it is.
My ST VAC was always a little low and now the AVR has something to regulate. Photos made using my $5 volt meter and $75 pocket O-Scope, nothing but the best for my ST & listeroid. Also, ignor the units on the O-Scope, I am still learning how to use the device but the wave form is valid.
I will made a decision on the controller very soon, thank you.
Bruce
oiler, you said that your gov was getting a little lasy. check and see if your injecter is getting gummy and sticking.
you may need to pull it and clean it. this will help.
just my 2cents.
Getterdone..
You are right. I replaced the injection pump with a cheap one from India, id made a LOT of difference.
Sadly the engine hasn't been used since the wife kicked me out but i hope to be able to install it before winter......