I am starting to turn my thoughts to a bigger alternator for my boat. I have a Kubota M35B engine in there and at my cruising speed of around 2300 engine RPM I get a measly 30 amps of charge into my batteries. I haven't yet figured out what the current alternator is but it could be as small as a 60 amp rated unit. At this point I am not sure why I see only 30 amps max charge even with the batteries down to 50% SOC but all will be revealed in time ... I hope.
Anyway, the marine alternators from Balmer as sold through Defender Marine are VERY dear and can be well over $1k once you approach 100A units. I imagine that this is because they are rated to be ignition proof? Since I run a diesel engine, do I need to be concerned with that or can I run something much cheaper? Casual browsing shows new alternators between $200 and $300 on ebay which seems much more reasonable.
Anyhow, I am wondering if there is any reason to spend a fortune on a marine rated unit or will an automotive unit give me similar reliability (key is reliability). Which alternators are considered the best as far as reliability is concerned ?
Thanks !
Bob or Lloyd should be able to help. I wonder if a automotive alternator can be marinized.
Henry
Learned something new.
Here it is: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/marine-or-automotive-alternator-52508.html
It looks like Automotive alternators can be used with diesels. Never knew about screened alternators.
Henry
Thanks! Good thread pointer.
Let's say I currently have a 60 amp alternator that only pushes 30 amps into the batteries when they are roughly 50% charged.
How much of that reduced charge rate could be related to the fact that the batteries are getting a bit iffy and how much can be explained by the built-in regulator rather than a fancy external regulator such as the Balmer 614?
In other words, would it be a good idea to hang on to the old alternator for now and try an external regulator first ?
What would be a good source for a Balmer 614 regulator ... ebay ?
Quote from: Jens on November 02, 2013, 05:55:08 PM
I am starting to turn my thoughts to a bigger alternator for my boat. I have a Kubota M35B engine in there and at my cruising speed of around 2300 engine RPM I get a measly 30 amps of charge into my batteries. I haven't yet figured out what the current alternator is but it could be as small as a 60 amp rated unit. At this point I am not sure why I see only 30 amps max charge even with the batteries down to 50% SOC but all will be revealed in time ... I hope.
Anyway, the marine alternators from Balmer as sold through Defender Marine are VERY dear and can be well over $1k once you approach 100A units. I imagine that this is because they are rated to be ignition proof? Since I run a diesel engine, do I need to be concerned with that or can I run something much cheaper? Casual browsing shows new alternators between $200 and $300 on ebay which seems much more reasonable.
Anyhow, I am wondering if there is any reason to spend a fortune on a marine rated unit or will an automotive unit give me similar reliability (key is reliability). Which alternators are considered the best as far as reliability is concerned ?
Thanks !
Jens,
I'll help you work through what ya need. First how big is your bat bank=amphr size? How do you use the boat, is it power or sail, how much motor time?, and how long to you anchor out? Finally what is your total amp hrs used per 24 hr when unplugged from shore charger? Do you have any SOLAR.
By the way you never contacted me about the trojans, can I ssume you have replaced your bats with new?
Llloyd
Quote from: Jens on November 02, 2013, 07:56:57 PM
Thanks! Good thread pointer.
Let's say I currently have a 60 amp alternator that only pushes 30 amps into the batteries when they are roughly 50% charged.
How much of that reduced charge rate could be related to the fact that the batteries are getting a bit iffy and how much can be explained by the built-in regulator rather than a fancy external regulator such as the Balmer 614?
In other words, would it be a good idea to hang on to the old alternator for now and try an external regulator first ?
What would be a good source for a Balmer 614 regulator ... ebay ?
It could be bats, highly sulfated bats come up to voltage very fast. They also drop voltage very fast, the 2 go hand in hand. Use a good hydrometer after a full charge and 24 hour resting voltage.
Bob's favorite triple nickel is a good bet for an alternator, along side an Balmar controller.
Also the new square wire hair pin alternators from Denso, and Remy are excellent, both of these alts can run 75-80% efficiency, and they're a wound field alternator
Lloyd
Quote from: Lloyd on November 02, 2013, 07:58:26 PM
Jens,
I'll help you work through what ya need. First how big is your bat bank=amphr size? How do you use the boat, is it power or sail, how much motor time?, and how long to you anchor out? Finally what is your total amp hrs used per 24 hr when unplugged from shore charger? Do you have any SOLAR.
By the way you never contacted me about the trojans, can I ssume you have replaced your bats with new?
Llloyd
Thanks for jumping in here Lloyd!
I currently still have my 2 old 4D's (they are actually not that old, probably 3 years or so). I tried buying golf cart batteries from Costco about a month back but apparently they pack up this kind of stuff for the winter so no luck. I have a Catalina 36 sail boat and no solar (Solar is something else to look at but not until well into next year at the earliest). I am guessing here but I think the 2 4D 's add up to around 320 AH total capacity when new. I am operating under the assumption that I can pull about 100AH before I start to get worried. In the summer this isn't much of an issue but I run into problems when it gets cold. The diesel hot water heater on the boat takes a fair chunk of current to run and I like running it during the entire night (it of course modulates output based on interior temperature). It is not unusual for me to see a 10 amp current drain and I can be down 100 AH by the time I get going in the morning after anchoring out. When in my home port I hook to shore power and fully charge my batteries.
So far my excursions have been short ones with fall sailing limited to one night at anchor. I am concerned what things would look like with 3 or 4 days at anchor. With a charge rate of 30 amps (and it doesn't take long before that drops), I can't really do meaningful recharging of the house bank. Also, being a sail boat, I prefer not running the engine (or minimizing run time) when there is sufficient breeze to move under sail.
What I am doing at the moment is trying to figure out how to go about enabling me to stay out for multiple days without going paranoid about battery condition. I do not have enough room to install a dedicated DC generator.
Replacing the 2 4D's with 4 6V golf cart batteries is one thing I can do but I am not sure if this will help out if I can't recharge the batteries reasonably quick. Trying to figure out what my charging system is doing and if it needs to be upgraded is the other end of the puzzle. Until such time as I figure out how the overall system should look like, I am flying kinda blind.
Although I am likely to stay with flooded lead acid for now, there is the possibility of going with lithium cells in a few years when the technology has matured a bit.
As you can see, I have not made much progress in regards to power since we last talked batteries. I have replaced some of my lights with LED's to reduce current draw, I am waiting on a boost dc-dc converter to allow running my laptop directly from the battery instead of powering the big inverter for 120V and then using a wall wart to feed the laptop (I use the laptop for anchor watch so it's on for the entire night). Babysteps here and there.
I really don't like the idea of getting a small Honda generator which was another thought I briefly entertained.
Wind power is probably marginal in the PNW and solar is of little help in the winter when I have the big current draw of the diesel heater.
I can count on one or two hours of motoring on a lot of days but try to avoid motoring much more than that.
Hopefully this gives you a reasonable picture of where I am coming from
Jens
Quote from: Lloyd on November 02, 2013, 08:04:27 PM
It could be bats, highly sulfated bats come up to voltage very fast. They also drop voltage very fast, the 2 go hand in hand. Use a good hydrometer after a full charge and 24 hour resting voltage.
Bob's favorite triple nickel is a good bet for an alternator, along side an Balmar controller.
Also the new square wire hair pin alternators from Denso, and Remy are excellent, both of these alts can run 75-80% efficiency, and they're a wound field alternator
Lloyd
I don't recall for sure but I think I amat around 12.2 or so volts in the morning after having pulled between 80 and 100 AH's during the night. I have to run a few tests and also measure the specific gravity of the cells.
"Triple Nickel" ????
Jens
what to look for - explosive atmosphere rated, if those conditions exist in the compartment. But I think, all the mucking around with regulators, is for naught, if your pulley ratios are not right. Set pulley size for charging at your commonly used RPM, but below where the alternator will grenade if you redline the engine.
the triple nickel
110-555jho, and i believe it is also marine capable, as it has a sealed brush set so that no sparking to ignite fumes if they exist.
priced at about 180 bucks or so and available from any heavy truck dealer
they are rated at 160amps and will deliver ~120 amps continuous for a very long time.
there are many marine aux power units using this alternator.
bob g
ps. watch out for knock offs of this alternator on ebay for maybe 20-40 bucks cheaper, i am not at all sure they are as good as the real deal which is marketed by leece neville/prestolite.
Cool! Thanks for clarifying Bob!
A couple of related question if I may ...
Besides some windage losses on a larger alternator, am I going to loose anything else by going to an oversized alternator compared to let's say a 100 amp rated unit? Would there be a significant difference if I charge at 50 amps in the power to run a 100 amp rated alternator compared to a 160 amp rated alternator?
Balmer claims that marine rated units have better bearings and fans to put up with the extra demands of marine applications. Is that marketing speak or is there any truth to it? I hear that Leece-Neville actually makes the alternators for Balmer but do they modify the design for them or does Balmer take a standard unit and powdercoat it white and sell it as theirs ?
I think automotive applications are tougher than marine. Alternators next to radiators and under the hood with turbo's and exhaust in summer days get very hot. I could be wrong but my guess it gets hotter than lots of marine applications.
Henry
Quote from: Jens on November 03, 2013, 12:17:50 PM
Cool! Thanks for clarifying Bob!
A couple of related question if I may ...
Besides some windage losses on a larger alternator, am I going to loose anything else by going to an oversized alternator compared to let's say a 100 amp rated unit? Would there be a significant difference if I charge at 50 amps in the power to run a 100 amp rated alternator compared to a 160 amp rated alternator?
Balmer claims that marine rated units have better bearings and fans to put up with the extra demands of marine applications. Is that marketing speak or is there any truth to it? I hear that Leece-Neville actually makes the alternators for Balmer but do they modify the design for them or does Balmer take a standard unit and powdercoat it white and sell it as theirs ?
Most alternators are going to operating most efficiently at about 2500 alternator rpm and about 50-60% loaded. This doesn't mean that the engine is going to operating most efficiently, especially if its a large engine/small alt..
On a sail boat we typically see 9 to 20 hp auxiliaries. This make a perfect solution, with no gen required. Size the alt and battery bank to 2-3 days load, make sure you consider Peukert, and bat temps. If your bats are cold they won't have near the voltage of warm bats, nor the amp hr availability. In the NW fall to spring period I find it's not uncommon for the bat temps to be low 50's to low 60's. This really effects voltage and amp hr., so you need to size the bank to the loads at temp.
With a small sailboat auxiliary, it can be both a generator and drive motor. Setup with a Balmar MC controller when at anchor you can run a large alternator that closely matches the available engine HP. Like a dc generator, then when you need to motor, setup a toggle switch and just flip it into small engine mode. You need to be mindful of the power take off requirements of the engine drive pulley/crank loads, and make sure you have an proper sized drive belt.
Lloyd
Did a fact finding mission to the boat:
On trickle charge the batteries are resting at 13.45 Volt. After turning charger off and about 30 minutes voltage was at 13.3V. I will let it sit overnight and check voltage and specific gravity tomorrow afternoon.
The engine has a 50 amp alternator (Westerbeke 41017) and a 3/8 " belt.
Any increase in alternator capacity would require a new water pump pulley, crankshaft pulley and alternator pulley in order to accommodate a wider belt. I am assuming these are available but I need to figure out costs.
Physically, the alternator can't be bigger than the stock size unless I want to do major surgery. The biggest limitation seems to be depth which can't be more than about 6" from the inside edge of the pulley flange to the end of the electrical studs at the back of the alternator.
Mounting is via a 2" boss on the bottom of the alternator.
Quote from: Lloyd on November 03, 2013, 01:36:42 PM
Most alternators are going to operating most efficiently at about 2500 alternator rpm and about 50-60% loaded. This doesn't mean that the engine is going to operating most efficiently, especially if its a large engine/small alt..
On a sail boat we typically see 9 to 20 hp auxiliaries. This make a perfect solution, with no gen required. Size the alt and battery bank to 2-3 days load, make sure you consider Peukert, and bat temps. If your bats are cold they won't have near the voltage of warm bats, nor the amp hr availability. In the NW fall to spring period I find it's not uncommon for the bat temps to be low 50's to low 60's. This really effects voltage and amp hr., so you need to size the bank to the loads at temp.
With a small sailboat auxiliary, it can be both a generator and drive motor. Setup with a Balmar MC controller when at anchor you can run a large alternator that closely matches the available engine HP. Like a dc generator, then when you need to motor, setup a toggle switch and just flip it into small engine mode. You need to be mindful of the power take off requirements of the engine drive pulley/crank loads, and make sure you have an proper sized drive belt.
Lloyd
The engine is a 35 Hp unit, cruise RPM is between 2000 and 2300 RPM, engine pulley is 4 1/8 " diameter, Alternator pulley is 2 7/8" diameter so we are looking good there. The downside is the tiny 3/8" belt. Yes the batteries will be cold, probably in the 50-60 degree range you mentioned. Without major surgery, there is no room for additional batteries so I am stuck with 4 golf cart 6 volt units.
I actually have plenty power to operate the alternator when cruising but I like the idea of 'down shifting' (presumably via the temperature probe wire on the Balmer 614 regulator).
Are there good aftermarket sources for the bigger pulleys required or would they best be ordered through Westerbeke or Kubota ?
Quote from: Jens on November 03, 2013, 01:50:32 PM
Quote from: Lloyd on November 03, 2013, 01:36:42 PM
Most alternators are going to operating most efficiently at about 2500 alternator rpm and about 50-60% loaded. This doesn't mean that the engine is going to operating most efficiently, especially if its a large engine/small alt..
On a sail boat we typically see 9 to 20 hp auxiliaries. This make a perfect solution, with no gen required. Size the alt and battery bank to 2-3 days load, make sure you consider Peukert, and bat temps. If your bats are cold they won't have near the voltage of warm bats, nor the amp hr availability. In the NW fall to spring period I find it's not uncommon for the bat temps to be low 50's to low 60's. This really effects voltage and amp hr., so you need to size the bank to the loads at temp.
With a small sailboat auxiliary, it can be both a generator and drive motor. Setup with a Balmar MC controller when at anchor you can run a large alternator that closely matches the available engine HP. Like a dc generator, then when you need to motor, setup a toggle switch and just flip it into small engine mode. You need to be mindful of the power take off requirements of the engine drive pulley/crank loads, and make sure you have an proper sized drive belt.
Lloyd
The engine is a 35 Hp unit, cruise RPM is between 2000 and 2300 RPM, engine pulley is 4 1/8 " diameter, Alternator pulley is 2 7/8" diameter so we are looking good there. The downside is the tiny 3/8" belt. Yes the batteries will be cold, probably in the 50-60 degree range you mentioned. Without major surgery, there is no room for additional batteries so I am stuck with 4 golf cart 6 volt units.
I actually have plenty power to operate the alternator when cruising but I like the idea of 'down shifting' (presumably via the temperature probe wire on the Balmer 614 regulator).
Are there good aftermarket sources for the bigger pulleys required or would they best be ordered through Westerbeke or Kubota ?
Here's a pdf for your engine http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CE0QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westerbeke.com%2FproductBrochures%2Fw107.pdf&ei=ocF2UqOeMcSYiAK_wYCIBQ&usg=AFQjCNGuOWfA6H1ih6AjjQs-vSL5AeONtg&bvm=bv.55819444,d.cGE (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CE0QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westerbeke.com%2FproductBrochures%2Fw107.pdf&ei=ocF2UqOeMcSYiAK_wYCIBQ&usg=AFQjCNGuOWfA6H1ih6AjjQs-vSL5AeONtg&bvm=bv.55819444,d.cGE) it makes 20 hp at 2000 rpm, probably a little less in the real world.
Options
One or two extra Vee pulleys.
5", 6" or 7" diameter.
Adjustable flezible mounts.
Extra 40. 60. or 100 ampere alternator
mounted.
40 ampere alternator mounted in place
of standard generator.
That would be the way to go, the the existing alt and mount a new 2nd alt with proper belts. We know that it can at least drive a 100 amp alt on the power take off, I'm sure it can handle the "triple nickel" at rated 160 it needs about 4.8 hp.
lloyd
My engine is a Kubota/Universal/Westerbeke M35B and is quite different.
A second alternator would be a preferred setup for redundancy but I am not sure if an appropriate mounting arrangement is available for the Kubota engine.
After resting for 12 hours, the voltage of my 2 4D batteries in parallel was 12.8V. The specific gravity readings are as follows:
Battery 1: 1.285, 1.285, 1.275, 1.275, 1.275, 1.285
Battery 2: 1.280, 1.275, 1.270, 1.275, 1.250, 1.220
Both batteries were new July 27, 2010
I am in the process of equalizing now to see if Battery 2 Cell 6 can be 'fixed'.
Quote from: Jens on November 04, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
After resting for 12 hours, the voltage of my 2 4D batteries in parallel was 12.8V. The specific gravity readings are as follows:
Battery 1: 1.285, 1.285, 1.275, 1.275, 1.275, 1.285
Battery 2: 1.280, 1.275, 1.270, 1.275, 1.250, 1.220
Both batteries were new July 27, 2010
I am in the process of equalizing now to see if Battery 2 Cell 6 can be 'fixed'.
Jens,
Make sure you equalize each bat separately, Not In Parallel.
When you said Westerbeke 4107, I just assumed it was the Perkins. Kubotas, and Yanmars don't like much side loading the crank. If you mount a second alternator opposite side it will help. Denso also makes a 100 & 130 amp hairpin alt. That would be my choice for your setup.
Lloyd
Quote from: Lloyd on November 04, 2013, 05:45:11 PM
Jens,
Make sure you equalize each bat separately, Not In Parallel.
When you said Westerbeke 4107, I just assumed it was the Perkins. Kubotas, and Yanmars don't like much side loading the crank. If you mount a second alternator opposite side it will help. Denso also makes a 100 & 130 amp hairpin alt. That would be my choice for your setup.
Lloyd
Thanks Lloyd! I had all three batteries hooked up in parallel (the two house batteries and a small start battery). I don't recall ever seeing anything about separating the batteries but will do so tomorrow. I only had time for about an hour of equalizing today. Tomorrow I should be able to do a full 4 hour cycle though (my charger switches back to normal charge mode after 4 hours).
Question .... the charger has 3 outputs for three batteries. Could I equalize all batteries at the same time if I hook up a separate output to each positive terminal of each battery and keep a common negative ? The charger is a ProNautic 1250.
I am confused re the Westerbeke bit - I mentioned that the alternator is a Westerbeke 41017 (note the extra '1' in the number).
Based on the engine being a Kubota M35B, could you clarify for me what your suggestion is for a replacement alternator keeping in mind that the current unit is a very tight fit. Have you seen any mounting kits to mount a second alternator on this engine? Mounting does not seem to be straight forward for a second alternator. What would be your suggestion re the belt - would you leave the 3/8 belt (and all the pulleys) for the original alternator and would you run a second belt for the second (new) alternator ? .... or would you replace the current alternator and replace all pulleys for a larger belt ?
Thanks!
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't 30A charging close to ideal to your 320Ah bank? (C/10)
I think a good external regulator with an external temperature compensation (since your batteries are around 50-60F) would do your batteries good. :)
Quote from: Cornelius on November 05, 2013, 12:17:42 AM
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't 30A charging close to ideal to your 320Ah bank? (C/10)
I think a good external regulator with an external temperature compensation (since your batteries are around 50-60F) would do your batteries good. :)
<sheepish look> Good point! Yes, you are correct .... but it just takes too long to bring the charge up at that rate and also the charge rate falls back fairly quickly from 30A (although I have never timed or graphed the charge rate vs time curve). The other aspect to my desire for a higher charge rate is my thought of moving to Lithium technology within a few years.
How much damage would a 60 A rate cause for a 320 AH bank? I would gladly accept a somewhat reduced battery life if I could cut engine run time in half.
Quote from: Jens on November 04, 2013, 06:18:32 PM
Quote from: Lloyd on November 04, 2013, 05:45:11 PM
Jens,
Make sure you equalize each bat separately, Not In Parallel.
When you said Westerbeke 4107, I just assumed it was the Perkins. Kubotas, and Yanmars don't like much side loading the crank. If you mount a second alternator opposite side it will help. Denso also makes a 100 & 130 amp hairpin alt. That would be my choice for your setup.
Lloyd
Quote
Thanks Lloyd! I had all three batteries hooked up in parallel (the two house batteries and a small start battery). I don't recall ever seeing anything about separating the batteries but will do so tomorrow. I only had time for about an hour of equalizing today. Tomorrow I should be able to do a full 4 hour cycle though (my charger switches back to normal charge mode after 4 hours).
Question .... the charger has 3 outputs for three batteries. Could I equalize all batteries at the same time if I hook up a separate output to each positive terminal of each battery and keep a common negative ? The charger is a ProNautic 1250.
Yes each bat must be measured by it's own resting voltage, in parallel the weaker bats will cause current to flow between the big and little sisters.
No a 3 terminal charger charges at the rate of the Primary#1 bat/terminal, it would require separate sense leads and separate logic, Xantrex had such a charger but it only lasted about 1 year in the market place, and couldn't do separate equalize.
It appears that bat 1-4d doesn't need an equalize, but bat2-4d has a large discrepancy between the last 2 cells, and I didn't see note of bat 3.
I am suspect of any resting voltage and SPG readings if all 3 bats were in parallel. SO to be accurate you must start over one bat at a time. This means fully charge, let rest for 24 hrs, bleed of any surface charge, then take a resting Voltage/SPG.
Quote
I am confused re the Westerbeke bit - I mentioned that the alternator is a Westerbeke 41017 (note the extra '1' in the number).
Yea, it was my error, I saw Wester....4107 and not 41017.
QuoteBased on the engine being a Kubota M35B, could you clarify for me what your suggestion is for a replacement alternator keeping in mind that the current unit is a very tight fit. Have you seen any mounting kits to mount a second alternator on this engine? Mounting does not seem to be straight forward for a second alternator. What would be your suggestion re the belt - would you leave the 3/8 belt (and all the pulleys) for the original alternator and would you run a second belt for the second (new) alternator ? .... or would you replace the current alternator and replace all pulleys for a larger belt ?
Thanks!
Yep, I am saying add a second alt, there is a factory add on pulley that bolts to the 3-bolt on the original pulley. There is also a factory bracket to mount the 2nd alt. But I think that is a non issue for someone with welding skills to fabricate there own. A 1/2 belt will drive the Denso 100-130 amp alt, because it's so much more efficient do to the hair pin stator design. And with the Balmar Controller you can dial it in with the belt manager, if it make dust.
Lloyd
Quote from: Cornelius on November 05, 2013, 12:17:42 AM
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't 30A charging close to ideal to your 320Ah bank? (C/10)
I think a good external regulator with an external temperature compensation (since your batteries are around 50-60F) would do your batteries good. :)
No
A healthy well built FLA, can take 25-30% of C/20 in charge rate especially if cold.
For a charger working as a charger/power supply I speck 40-50% depending on house loads. A good three step chrarger that is temp compensated can never over charge a good battery. The terminal voltage controls the amperage by the voltage control.
But an undersized charger could under charge bats, while acting as charger/power supply for house loads and charging at the same time.
A battery can only accept as much current as it internal resistance allows, with a smart 3-stage/temp compensated it must drop current to maintain voltage control.
Lloyd
My meager experience with car/engine alternators are that the charging curve are all wrong. They usually are full(ish) throttle until the batteries hit around 14.2-14.4V, then they cut the voltage abruptly to 13.4-13.6V instead of keeping the voltage and dropping the amp - therefore, the batteries takes ages to top up.
A good 3-stage external controller would do better i think. Also, at 50-60F, the charging voltage should be higher. (14.6-14.7V?)
I fully support your decision to move to Lithium batteries. :) I've already swapped my 110Ah LA battery in my caravan with a 55Ah LiFePO4 battery, which has integrated bms, so i can charge the battery with whatever i have around; a standard LA charger, alternator, or even direct from a solar panel, since the bms cut the charging to the cells when full. And since one can discharge these batteries over 90%, i have no loss in practical capacity. It also support charging at C/1. :)
Quote from: Cornelius on November 05, 2013, 01:37:37 AM
I fully support your decision to move to Lithium batteries. :) I've already swapped my 110Ah LA battery in my caravan with a 55Ah LiFePO4 battery, which has integrated bms, so i can charge the battery with whatever i have around
Not to cause thread drift but what is the make of the batteries you use ?
Quote from: Lloyd on November 05, 2013, 01:17:09 AM
Yes each bat must be measured by it's own resting voltage, in parallel the weaker bats will cause current to flow between the big and little sisters.
No a 3 terminal charger charges at the rate of the Primary#1 bat/terminal, it would require separate sense leads and separate logic, Xantrex had such a charger but it only lasted about 1 year in the market place, and couldn't do separate equalize.
It appears that bat 1-4d doesn't need an equalize, but bat2-4d has a large discrepancy between the last 2 cells, and I didn't see note of bat 3.
I am suspect of any resting voltage and SPG readings if all 3 bats were in parallel. SO to be accurate you must start over one bat at a time. This means fully charge, let rest for 24 hrs, bleed of any surface charge, then take a resting Voltage/SPG.
Ok, I will start from scratch <sigh> :)
Quote
Yep, I am saying add a second alt, there is a factory add on pulley that bolts to the 3-bolt on the original pulley. There is also a factory bracket to mount the 2nd alt. But I think that is a non issue for someone with welding skills to fabricate there own. A 1/2 belt will drive the Denso 100-130 amp alt, because it's so much more efficient do to the hair pin stator design. And with the Balmar Controller you can dial it in with the belt manager, if it make dust.
Lloyd
The problem with my welding skills is that they require a lot of trial and error type of fitting procedures :( Not a good thing when the boat is one place and the shop another. I would gladly pay for a commercial 'bolt it on' kind of an upgrade. I will talk to my local Kubota dealer to see if he can fix me up with the bracket and pulley.
Thanks again !
Oh, also thanks for confirming that a higher charge rate is viable!
Quote from: Jens on November 05, 2013, 10:07:56 AM
Quote from: Cornelius on November 05, 2013, 01:37:37 AM
I fully support your decision to move to Lithium batteries. :) I've already swapped my 110Ah LA battery in my caravan with a 55Ah LiFePO4 battery, which has integrated bms, so i can charge the battery with whatever i have around
Not to cause thread drift but what is the make of the batteries you use ?
Not easy to say, since there's no makers name and it's probably made in China. ;) But i bought it here (https://www.finn.no/finn/torget/annonse?finnkode=43971458&searchQuery=alternativ+energi) in Norway... The supplier i bought it from, have mainly cells from Chinese manufacturer "Heter"
(I also have a smaller battery from the same supplier; a 12V, 30Ah, used as an all-round battery, because of it's weight - 4.4kg, and 24pc 3.3V, 10Ah cells in series-parallel to make 36V, 20Ah for my E-bike, also from Heter...)
It sure takes a long time to equalize multiple batteries, especially if you don't trust the system to run unattended.
I have now done one 4 hour cycle on the good house battery and it measures very even across all cells. I have done two equalize cycles on the other house battery and will test specific gravity tomorrow (after 12 hours of resting). I can't wait to see how that one weak cell is coming along. Equalizing current seemed very low at less than an amp for most of the equalization time (at 15.8V!).
I have contacted Electromaax to see if they make a serpentine pulley set for the M35B engine and they seem to have enough requests to make it worthwhile to produce a kit. Should be interesting to see what pricing is like ....
I have not been able to locate a pre-made kit for a second alternator bracket so I guess I will have to see what I can cobble up myself (and if it is feasible at all). A second alternator is definitively the preferred way to go.
Good news, the house battery with the bad cell came up just fine!
I must say I am surprised at how good a shape the batteries appear to be in. I was under the impression the house bank was well down in terms of life.
On the down side, I looked at possible mounting options for a second alternator but it doesn't look like anything would fit in the allowed space (short of modifying the engine cover). It looks like increasing the capacity of the existing alternator and installing serpentine pulleys will be the way to go.
Edit: to clarify, the mounting bracket doesn't seem to be the big issue but rather the space required for the second alternator is the issue.
It's been a while of doing nothing with this issue but I have picked it up again. It turns out that the tripple nickle alternator will not physically fit as a replacement for my current alternator. Apparently the Balmar 614 series does but at a VERY steep price. Does anybody know who makes those alternators for Balmar?
The biggest issue is the depth of the alternator - the distance between the top of the input shaft and the top of the output studs on the back. The Balmar 614 has a full range from 70 to 160 amps in a case that actually fits into that small space. I currently have only a single 3/8 belt so my intention would be to run a Balmar equivalent 160 amp alternator with a 614 external regulator in the small engine mode at half power until I get around to changing to a serpentine belt.
The Balmar alternator seems to be in the $900 range which is a tad steep in my opinion.
Good Morning Jens
I just downloaded and looked through a Balmer products catalog.
This small 60's series alternator is either a Delphi ot Hitatchi base manufactured.
At least one, two other differetn base manufactuters on thier larger cased unit series.
"I think" you are a GM diesel truck driver? Go look out under your hood and compare cases, alt fans and rear case electrinics coveres to your Delphi unit. Then look at the dramatically differet alt mounting style. ~25% of the base price.
Balmer lists as having these custom sact up in a minimum od four differet case capabible mounting style in this small case series.
You already specified you wanted a no modification bolt on. So . . . .
I assume you do have insurance on your boat, eh? So . . . .
Balmer had paid the price to have these rated and listed to four differerent world wide marine safety standards. A 555 Leece Nevinve or an automovtive take off will not have this assurance for your insurance inspector come the need to ever make a claim. ~25% of the base price.
Balmer has taked the addtional measures to have as much as possible on this unit "marinized" with powder coating of the raw aluminim cases and additons dipping of the windings and post overstray sealing of the electrinics and internal connections. I've retro'ed converted auto units up to this standard - real paintaking PITA. Another ~25% addtional of the base price.
So . . . . You will not get that in a 555 Leece Neville or an automotive take out unit either.
Just answering your topic lead of, "what should I look for?"
Regard
Steve Unruh
Steve, no need to insult me by accusing me of driving a GMC truck :) I am a Ford truck guy !
Although it is somewhat worrying that the lack of marinizing could create issues, I am not quite sure what these issues might be as this is a diesel engine which is located inside the cabin area of a sail boat (not exposed to any weather or flammable fuel etc). The epoxy coating looks nice but the current alternator is not coated and shows no sign of corrosion after many years of service. Considering that the 555 sells for let's say around the $200 mark and the equivalent Balmar sells for around $900 mark, I would call this excessive. I would go further and say that Balmar is praying on the uninformed (not calling you uninformed though) to create an illusion of 'special' that is pure money in the bank for them.
Thank you for the hint for Delphi/Hitachi - I will see what I can find on their products!
Do other people think that the lack of marinization are likely to cause issues ? Maybe I am getting value for the $900 and not realizing it .... additional opinions greatly appreciated.
i understand the marine issues brought up by Steve, however i see folks like amplepower building marine
apu's that use the 555 style alternator, and there are others that do as well.
now maybe they get around the issues because the apu's are contained in nice cabinets? i dunno
the 555 does have a sealed brush set, which should be agreeable with marine concerns for spark/ignition sources?
in any event i would be looking for whichever small case alternator like the bosch or hitachi that has an enclosed brush set or brushless design, so as to limit the exposure of a possible ignition source... even though diesel is the fuel used, probably best to at least make an attempt to limit this exposure?
bob g
It appears that I have done an injustice to Balmar when I said that I thought they were overpriced for what they are. It would appear that they are not just re-branded regular alternators but highly customized units that although pricey, give value for the money. In addition to better insulation they have better bearings, closer tolerance, square wire etc etc.
I will have to figure out if I want to pay the premium that goes with a small frame alternator that puts out as much power as a large frame unit or if I want to live with lower power output.
Remind me Jens;
The reason for wanting more power, was to be able to charge an upcoming Lithium bank as fast as possible? If so; i'd get the Lithium bank first; then worry about charging noise... The Lithium batteries wouldn't mind sitting at 40% DOD for a couple of days, but FLA/SLA would start to gag... :D
Quote from: Cornelius on December 06, 2013, 04:57:29 AM
Remind me Jens;
The reason for wanting more power, was to be able to charge an upcoming Lithium bank as fast as possible? If so; i'd get the Lithium bank first; then worry about charging noise... The Lithium batteries wouldn't mind sitting at 40% DOD for a couple of days, but FLA/SLA would start to gag... :D
Yes, that is correct. I will be upgrading both charging and storage systems. I have to start somewhere and tossing a coin gave me my starting point :) Actually the current house batteries are in pretty good shape but take forever to charge because my alternator cuts down to somewhere below 20 amps pretty quickly. There is a good chance that a quicker charging system can get me to an acceptable power situation pretty quickly even if I start out without serpentine belts at half power output.
What about looking at a 24V truck (or marine) alternator, and feeding that to a capacitor and a MPPT wind charge controller, to charge the batteries with?
The MPPT takes the "high" voltage and drops it down to battery charging voltage. Morningstar and Midnight make a decent unit, that handles up to 60 amps. (but they are pricey $$) They could be located in a "dry" area to reduce explosive situations (but they are for charging large, gassing battery banks and have no sparking relays inside)
My experience with 12V Lithium battery packs (LiFePO4) are, when given charge from a 'standard' 12V charger for FLA, they take whatever they can get, until they reach 95% SOC, then the internal bms ease up... So - maybe your alternator isn't too bad for that purpose...
I guess you wouldn't be able to 'try-before-buy', would you? ;) That would have given you the best idea on what to do first... :)
You could borrow one from me, but i'm a little bit long away, i guess...
Thanks for the offer but in the great scheme of things the batteries will probably come fairly soon after the charging system is sorted out so I don't think it will make all that much of a difference as to what is upgraded first.
I've just re-read the first posts here; just to re-focus on what you really need, and that would be - More charging amp when you're living on board. :)
It's a sailboat, which means you're using it often when it's windy...
Have you considered a wind generator to supply your charging?
The wind almost always blows along the coast, and are usually nice and steady over water... A windgenerator, like the AirBreeze, would give you a steady 5-10A in a good breeze.
I actually don't live on the boat and wind in our area can be very spotty. Right now we are having plenty of wind and a ghastly wind chill factor (-20 C) but for most of the fall up till now we had unusually light winds. Summer can be very frustrating in a sail boat over here.
I will eventually add some solar power but this is a ways down the list and only if it is needed after the alternator and batteries have been upgraded.
I have placed an order for a Balmar AT-200 alternator, a remote charge controller and a serpentine pulley system. The Balmar will be set up with a switch to de-rate when I need power to move the boat or at full power when I don't need a lot of power to move the boat. It should be the cat's meow and provide all the power needed (and then some). Add 400 to 600 Ahr lithium down the road and I will never want for electric power ever again!
It am looking forward to the first stage of the upgrade (alternator)!
I would like to thank everybody that chimed in on the discussion. You all helped to clear my mind and decide which way I was going to proceed on this upgrade!!!