Done for the season ?

[Chris]

No way as good as a parts washer, but the original Lister manuals recommend washing parts with parafin oil AKA kerosene. Kerosene used to be easy to get here in Abaco years ago for lamps, stoves and refidgerators. Harder to find now in bulk. I assume jet A fuel would be close. The kerosene works quite well in cutting through the black goo. On my last partial tear down I used lamp oil.

Chris

[Apogee]

Jens,

Diesel fuel is a good parts cleaner that is safe to use.  

Buy a box of Nitrile gloves to keep your hands clean.  Cheap and they make cleanup much quicker.

Check the inside of the sleeves for scoring.  If you run your fingernail over any scoring marks and your nail catches, replace the sleeves.  This is where your oil was going.

I'd also have the heads professionally done if it were me.  DON'T lap them when you get them back from the shop.  

Agreed on having the machine shop clean the block.  Much, much better dealing with clean parts.

I also agree about considering having the rotating parts all balanced.  She will live longer that way.

Now all you need is one of John F's new camshafts while it's apart!

Finally, when you remove the flywheels, make sure you keep track of which one went on which end of the crank.  I doubt it will make any difference, but you want to keep the balance as close to original if you don't re-balance it.  I would stamp or punch the end of the crank and it's corresponding flywheel hub as a way to keep them straight.

Bummer that this happened, but I agree that Thumper #2 will be a much better engine.  By the time you finish, if all of the work is done correctly, there is no reason that this engine won't be every bit as good as an original Lister.

Hang in there!

Regards,

Steve

[mike90045]

  I would stamp or punch the end of the crank and it's corresponding flywheel hub as a way to keep them straight.

Stamp or punch, a indian cast flywheel hub ??

[Diesel Guy]

Jens,

I totally understand where your coming from, the quality of the Indian engines are very low and inconsistent.

That is the exact reasoning behind me abandoning the Listoriods and making my 14/1 as a backup unit only and my CD Witte is going to my full time power unit.

My CD engine is fully rebuilt and already had low hours on it since new. It runs perfect and I can't explain why, it gives you the
"Feeling and Confidence" it will last a long life when operating.

In the back of my head, the 6/1's and 14/1 always left me wondering when or if something would break. If they where real Listers that would be another story.

Good luck with your decision/s,
Diesel Guy

[AdeV]

This would presumably all but eliminate my maintenance requirements.

Sorry, but unless you're buying "disposables" (throw the genny away when it breaks, throw the boiler away when it breaks), then you will never escape maintenance requirements. Even a regular, modern gas boiler is recommended to be serviced every year, and there's almost nothing to them. You're looking to put oil of unknown quality through, presumably, a boiler designed to run on kerosene, and you want near-zero maintenance? Ain't going to happen my friend.

All the above said, I'm sure that you'd have less pain than thumper's given you over the past 8 months.

[mobile_bob]

i am thinking that the so called "free" fuels such as waste veggie need to be factored in
with the "true" maintenance costs of operation of the plant whether it is engine based heat production
or boiler based.

i wonder if in the final analysis that "free" fuels don't end up being more costly than just buying clean pump diesel
to start with, for most applications anyway?

not to say that i am kicking sand at the use of waste oils as fuel, but i am rethinking their use myself based on the
experience of others.

maybe it works out that running straight (albeit well filtered/heated/processed) waste veggie is not cost effective
with all things considered, but
perhaps it works out a 50/50 blend with pump diesel is a good balance between the cost of operation vs btu's produced?
or some other blend? or other metric?

probably time for a good analysis?

bob g

[billswan]

Jens

I know what you mean about he engine taking more of your time and money than you like.

But will you be able to buy or build a boiler that is as efficient as what you had with thumper.

I looked at some of the utube vids that were put up about guys burning veg in boilers and boiler conversions.
I bet those boilers have a lot of heat going out the stack.  The way you were using a heat exchanger on the exhaust of thumper made it lots more efficient. My guess is you will use lots more veg oil with a boiler.

If your electric power went out you would be glad to have the gen.

Billswan

[Chris]

That has been my concern as well. One of the local road contractors here in Abaco was using kerosine/Jet a fuel with added oil to run some of their equipment. I asked him one day how much oil were they adding to the diesel. His comment was don't do it. They have stopped using Kero. He is not sure if the problems they were having, worn out injectors, fuel pump etc were a directly do to using Kero or if the drivers FORGOT to add oil. Said it cost them a bundle and are back to diesel.

Chris

[Geno]

Speaking for myself only I believe my use of WVO as engine fuel gives a significant positive result over diesel. My waste heat recovery counts a lot in this estimate. I had to work out many bugs in the beginning and they still come up from time to time. I did get a good engine from the folks at Utterpower. I'm just about to tick over 3000 hours. That's a minimum of 6 MWH (1300 grid dollars) and unknown 1000's of gallons of hot water. I have no idea if I've broken even yet but I gotta be close. I can't put a price on the peace of mind and sense of independence it gives me. My cogen setup is only one piece of "the plan"

Hopefully by the end of the year I'll be posting pics of my "Po Boys Thermal Storage" scheme, which will increase my "profit" significantly much of the year.

Thanks, Geno

[BruceM]

An IC engine is a LOT of moving parts to maintain if heating water is the only purpose, and you're on grid like Jens.  Even  6/1's for that purpose seems a hard road.  I think Jen's idea of looking into alternative fuel capable boilers is a good one. It's not easy to step back and consider a whole new approach, so I applaud Jens for doing so.

Geno's situation is far different- he needs the AC power, for battery charging and big AC current times, having too many tall trees, cloudy days and being too far north for cost effective solar power.  The hot water he can also use, a significant side benefit.  It's no secret I'm a big fan of Geno's thoughtful, practical, off grid living projects.

Bruce M

[mobile_bob]

Jens:

let me take a stab at answering your questions

scoring of the liners, how much is too much?  in my opinion any scoring is too much, but
the reality is you can deal with some scoring. what you will need to do is hone the liners to restore
a crosshatch pattern and see how much of the scoring can be removed. a few light scratches is
not going to hurt here.

you can use std rings, no need to go to oversize because you will not be able to hone out .010"
that is a job best done with a bore job, but isn't done with liners anyway.

piston scoring?  take a scotch brite pad and by hand scrub off the score as best you can, if the
scratches are deeper take some emery and work down the high spots. the most important attribute
is the ring land integrity, the rings need to fit their grooves without binding and without undue sloppiness.

don't worry about hot spots on the skirt of the pistons, just scrub it off or lightly sand it down with emery
will work just fine.

i have successfully reused pistons and liners in much higher power density engines than a lister/oid
without issues, sometimes a bit extra clearance is a good thing.

use the cylinder casting to hold the liner while honing, and  i would recommend one of the bead hones
rather than the flat stone types, use a slow speed drill (500rpm is about right) lots of lubricant like ATF
and when you are done, clean the liner with ATF and white paper towels until the paper comes out without
any signs of gray color, only ATF red color will indicate the dirt, grit, grime and abrasive is gone.
follow this with hot soapy water and dry well, relube with whatever oil you like for assembly.

clean the ring grooves with a groove cleaner if you have one, or a piece of broken ring will work well for getting
all the carbon out of the grooves.

wrist pin/grudgeon pin bushings?  lots of folks get all anal about fit here, i don't,, a bit of extra clearance will cause no
problems, and may even be beneficial in this engine to allow for positive oil intake into the bushing/pin interface.

hope this helps

bob g

[billswan]

Jens

Long distance diagnosis is a bitch without some up close exam time. I have found that sometimes the owner of a unit that has problems will some times think he knows what he needs but when I have finally got to work on the unit in question many times I find things are not as it was related over a phone call. Can go both ways better and worse.

If you could put up a pix of your pistons in question it would be much better for the forum, both you and us guys answering will have a better feel for the right answer.

Also you must be wondering what that crank grind will cost in your locality, I think if you just wipe some of those dirty parts in question and toss them in your car or truck and make the rounds of the local auto-truck machine shops the machinists there will be more than happy to take a look at what you have and give you there opinion.

Find a good pix of the motor to take with in case the shop is unfamiliar with them might help, but not necessary.
If the machinist Is the slightest bit SMART about reusing pistons and sleeves thank him for his time and move on, some guys are just that way and they seem to think the customer should just pay - pay - pay. They are also worried that if the job turns out poorly there reputation with you will be hurt. New parts out of a box that fail can then be blamed onto others. If you have a shop in the area that  work an agricultural engines I would start there.

I think the way you describe things, and with the spares you have on the shelf you might not have to spend too very much money to get thumper going. Of course you cannot put any value on your time, if you do then just give up now and sell the remains for what you can get. May be someone the forum would trade you a single for what you have. At least make a good list of what the costs of recovery and let the forum help.

Billswan

[veggie]

It looks like I will start my cleanup soon and I will post some pictures at that time. At this point I am 90% certain that I will plod along and clean up everything and rebuild although I will not put myself under the artificial time limit of fall for completion. It will be done when it is done and if this means I have to revert to regular electricity for heat and hot water than so be it. I expect/hope that this will make the entire thing a fun hobby experience as compared to a chore.

Yeahhhhh baby ! That's the spirit.
I was getting a bit worried that there would be one less Lister(oid) user in the world.
I assume we will all go through the same thought process as you have at one time or another.
It's partially the fear of the unknown, and once you get into a rebuild, it can be a lot of fun (if there's no time pressure of course). After it's done... future repairs are a lot easier and less stressful.

veggie

PS: Look on the bright side....this could have happened 1/2 through the heating season!
Instead, you have the whole summer to fiddle with it.

[Apogee]

Jens,

I'd just drop the heads and crank at a local machine shop and be done with it.  It won't be very expensive for them to grind the valves and they will be able to check the heads for flatness while they're at it.  Further, you won't have to do the cleanup, they will!

Ask them to polish the crank first to see if it cleans up.  If it does, problem solved and it'll be cheap!

Liners are ~ $80 each and you already have one.  Buy the second one and just replace them.  Make sure to put new o-rings on them and use lube on them when installing.

Re-use your pistons unless they are badly scored.

New rings and bearings and gaskets go without saying.

If it were me, I'd also have all of the rotating parts balanced (including flywheels).  But that's me...  No need to do it if you were pleased with how she ran before.

That's what I'd do.

I bet you get off under $500 for the whole project (plus your time of course).

Steve

[vdubnut62]

Jens, I'm gonna get kicked in the head for this, probably multiple times, but I've seen it too many time for me to change my mind.
Get the rods and crank PERFECT. The rest can be pretty sloppy and work flawlessly.
You would not believe the condition I've seen large bore, slow speed engines in that run perfectly. Even if it's a myth that a lister will run 20,000 hours plus
can you imagine the wear after even 10,000 hours?
IMHO get the bottom end right and do the best you can with the rest.
Ron