Here is a nice engine I would like to get.

[TimSR2]

Jens yer trying to push my buttons aren't you. Don't you be dissing my Dodges now.

Seriously it does make sense to run equipment that has commonly available parts....Brand x may be amazing, but if the parts are unobtainable what use is it in the long run? I remember working in auto repair and trying to fix a customer's MGB. It needed shocks. Best price I could find was 300 dollars each for rebuilds, this was in 1983. For a Chevy I could buy them for 16 dollars.

I like machinery that is tough, plain and common.

[cgwymp]

I remember working in auto repair and trying to fix a customer's MGB. It needed shocks. Best price I could find was 300 dollars each for rebuilds, this was in 1983. For a Chevy I could buy them for 16 dollars.

Now you can get them rebuilt to better-than-new spec (radial seals on the shafts where the originals had none) for $70 each, and they'll last 30 years or better....

(This thread was already way off topic....  ;-)

[rbodell]

Unfortunately, I don't think you will be able to get one.
Same reasons as the Listeroids.
Canada soon to be in the same boat  
I don't know, when I was sailing back and forth to Mexico I didn't have an engine in my boat, but every trip I would install a new lister as a battery charger. The head of customs used to sell them for me for double what I paid for them and all he wanted was a 12 pack of American Hershey bars for his kids. here in the USA, Hay I bought it at a yard sale. Besides, who would even come check me out looking for it in the first place. Granted, a boat isn't handy for everybody. I imagine you can buy parts with no problem like listeroids. Buy the parts and build one.

[veggie]

Henry,

This looks very much like the engine you are referring to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmvpbSJmQDY&feature=related

veggie

[AdeV]

Wow, could you sleep with that flywheel whizzing away just inches from your head - or feet?

I'm sure I couldn't...

[rbodell]

Wow, could you sleep with that flywheel whizzing away just inches from your head - or feet?

I'm sure I couldn't...

Oh thats nothing, Imagine changing the oil on it or aligning the engine to the shaft.

Space on a sailboat is precious.

[Wizard]

I'm reading lot to understand the torque and power better and was looking at industrial engines from websites and I noticed few things:

Torque is well above the kW by significant margin and does not cross.

1.9L to 2.5L tend to be between 30 to 65HP N/A  (forgot the kW range).

I also looked up on stock car tuned spec VW TDI 1.9L and they are 90HP appox 155 ft-lb and both did cross at one point.  In fact, non-turbo 1.9 DI by VW was around 65-70HP.

Why the industrial diesel had torque way above the kW and did not cross?  What did car makers who design and put in diesel engines do to make torque and power to cross?

Suppose I pick a Deutz 2009 inline 4 and use it in a 3 speed caravan (suppose).  48HP @ 3,000 RPM, while torque is 105 lb-ft at 2,000 RPM.  This is 2.2L engine for a gas 2.2L that is rated at 96HP @ screaming 5,200 RPM (I can't get up there because caravan is not built for speed.)  While torque of gas engine is respectable 119 lb-ft at 3,200 RPM (bad on acceleration due to 3 speed transmission especially if in top gear means I'm sitting at 2,000 RPM at 60Km/h and huge dip till HP climbs high enough to cross torque (already fading out fast) and I'd be in very bad spot at 100Km/h speed (freeway).

Wouldn't one of good diesel with purely torque do fine in a vehicle engine?  Regardless of HP if there one exists that is rated between 3,500 RPM to 4,000 RPM.

Comments?

Cheers, Wizard

[cgwymp]

What did car makers who design and put in diesel engines do to make torque and power to cross?

Hi Wizard,

horsepower is defined as:  hp = (torque * RPM) / 5252

So by this definition, hp and torque curves will always cross at 5252 RPM -- that's just the way the math works out.

Here's a discussion of it I found:
http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/torque.html

HTH!

[mike90045]

horsepower is defined as:  hp = (torque * RPM) / 5252
So by this definition, hp and torque curves will always cross at 5252 RPM -- that's just the way the math works out.
Here's a discussion of it I found:
http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/torque.html

If the engine ever gets to 5252 RPM !
My truck redlines at 4800 RPM, and crosses at 3100

http://www.allpar.com/images/engines/power-318.gif
I think the way you are explaining the definition "curves will always cross at 5252" is incorrect.

My wife's honda gets peak torque around 6200rpm
and listeroids aren't supposed to get close to 5252rpm !

[cgwymp]

horsepower is defined as:  hp = (torque * RPM) / 5252
So by this definition, hp and torque curves will always cross at 5252 RPM -- that's just the way the math works out.
Here's a discussion of it I found:
http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/torque.html

If the engine ever gets to 5252 RPM !
My truck redlines at 4800 RPM, and crosses at 3100

http://www.allpar.com/images/engines/power-318.gif
I think the way you are explaining the definition "curves will always cross at 5252" is incorrect.

My wife's honda gets peak torque around 6200rpm
and listeroids aren't supposed to get close to 5252rpm !

Hp is a calculated quantity, derived from torque and RPM as I stated in the formula.
Here's another explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

From the formula, what would be the hp if the RPM is 5252?

hp = (torque * RPM) / 5252
hp = (torque * 5252) / 5252
hp = torque

Thus, the lines cross.

Not sure what to tell you about your graph, other than the axes are marked corrected hp and torque.  What does "corrected" mean?  I don't know....
EDIT:  Look at the graph -- the scales are different.  If you extend the torque curve to 5252 rpm, it will land at about 220 lb-ft.  Likewise, if you extend the hp curve, it will be about 220 hp.  Therefore, if the axes were the same scale, the lines would cross at 5252 rpm.

Because of the way hp is defined, they have to.

And keep in mind that there multiple definitions of hp -- mechanical hp (which is what cars are measured in) is different from electrical is different from metric etc.

HTH!

[Wizard]

Brain-fart!  

But my basic question still remains the same and I did not mention the 5252 cross for very reason.  Just curiosity about why some engine have torque and power curves does not intersect on most industrial engines, small perkins 2 cylinder power curves still does not cross even it is rated at 3600 rpm either.

BTW, the VW TDI 1.9 does cross at one point and red line is 3750 RPM, does not have to be 5252 thing.

My question I'll repeat was suppose I take a industrial engine like Deutz 2009 inline 4 48hp type and will it work out in a vehicle on torque alone for example even this engine has pathetic HP?  The gearing for my 3 speed automatic in that caravan is somewhat geared low that I'm already at 2,000 RPM at 60KM/h speed, accelerating from stop to 60KM/h usually do not exceed 2,500rpm, harder acceleration usually see 3,000, that about all I do.  Specific RPM at 100KM/h (freeway) yet to determined.

I know that having 5 speed manual is better and I happen to have this transmission sitting in storage.  I know this transmission will allow engine to turn below 1800 RPM in 4th and even lower RPM on OD gear (5th).

Cheers, Wizard

[Cornelius]

I took a closer look at the definition of torque, and in what i can understand, is that if i (as a Norwegian) want to use kW and Nm, the constant i have to use would be approx. 9549...

So i think that the 'lines crossing at 5252' wouldn't compute.... But all that math was a bit over my head this late in the evening... )

One other interesting note: Steam engines and electric motors have their peak torque at near zero rpm...

[Crofter]

That so called "crossing" has all the significance of the clock hands being one on top of each other at five to eleven! Because the units of horsepower and foot pounds torque  are similar sized numbers on a lot of car engines and similar scale, they can be made to appear together conveniently on the same chart.

It is the shape of the individual curves that represent an engines operating characteristics and what kind of gearing it will need to make efficient use of its power. There is no such thing as a pure torque engine, or if it existed it would have Zero horsepower. I probably could point you to a forum thread with 20 pages of posts on which is more important, torque or horsepower and not much got resolved; a lot like discussing religion.

Horsepower is generally cheaper and lighter to produce at higher rpm. Diesels are harder to construct with large enough valves and good breathing to run at the rpms of a gas engine; the weight of their pistons, rods etc. also dont lend to high rpm. Because of their incremental feed of fuel into the combustion event they can produce much more torque from the same displacement than a gasoline engine whose whole fuel charge would want to start destructively detonating long before it reached the same cylinder pressures. They just cannot get down and grunt without busting a gut! The final drive reduction ratio has to be considerably different to operate at the same road speed.

[vdubnut62]

Wizard, be careful of running that Deutz with a stock caravan tranny under 1500-1800 rpm. The torque pulses of the engine will beat the transmission to pieces in overdrive. I reference an 1980 something Datsun/Nissan pickup with an SD22 diesel IIRC, I couldn't keep a tranny in that thing till I finally figured out what was happening.
Ron

[Wizard]

I do realize the pulses is much larger for diesels that potientially could beat up a transmission, good point but what happens if using SAE type (heavier flywheel used, that originally came with the diesel)?

Now I see why they "cross" the lines, just for marketing and to appeal to peoples' tastes and it happened to have be in right places due to units used?

I know diesel tend to have much lower redline due to massive construction of rotating/recipocating masses to take diesel ignition events.  In other word, massive contruction limits the redline otherwise lifespan is shorter and increased chances of throwing its' parts all over.

There are plenty of final drive gear ratios to choose from so I could lower the overall ratio for the A413 (3 speed 4 cylinder transmission.  And beefing up A413 is not a problem, this V6 transmission (3.0L is 150hp, 170 lb-ft) and gearsets had to be stronger and can be exchanged into A413 housing which is big plus, FYI.

I'll reword the question on use of a diesel, wouldn't be perfectly fine with a diesel engine that is higher torque even the HP is very low like the Deutz 2009 (105 lb-ft, 48 HP @ 3,000 RPM) provided most of acceleration and cruise is mostly 2,000-2,500 RPM max for example?

Cheers, Wizard