Electric governor

[Jens]

Several eons ago, on the old forum, ListeroidsUSA1 was working on an inexpensive electric governor for listeroids (or anything else for that matter). The thread petered out and nothing else was heard.
I am wondering if anyone happens to know the status of this governor. Is it still being refined ? Did it turn out to not work ? Seemed like there was a LOT of interest at the time.

Jens

[dubbleUJay]

Jens, now this is a coincidence, I just navigated to this sub-forum to ask exactly the same question!

Just before the last "other forum crash", I tried to find more info on it by searching different keywords in Google, but had no luck 

I hope someone can update us on this subject.

[AdeV]

A good friend of mine has built a governer system - actually, a complete control system - for a diesel generator, which utilises an RC servo to control the throttle. The engine is an old Ford diesel unit, hooked up to an ex-army 6KVA alternator of unknown provenance. I'm not quite sure how he senses the RPM; I can find that out.

I know this system rather well, as it lives in the bus I carry my race car around in.... The control system does pretty much everything you'd want: I flick a switch in the bus cabin; the control system runs the glow plugs for a few seconds, starts the engine, lets it settle for a few seconds, then activates the alternator. It monitors for over-speed, under-speed, high temperature and low oil pressure (and maybe others, I will check). In fact, the only thing he did wrong is it doesn't turn the glow plugs off until after the engine is started - which means we keep burning glow plugs out... That, and after 10 years the throttle servo seems to have worn out, so the speed response isn't quite as rapid as it used to be.

I'll have a chat to him about making plans & software available. I'd imagine the system could be modified to start/stop a Lister or Changfa type engine with the greatest of ease.

[3cedersRnD]

some of the small import cars, for instance honda uses or used a servomotor controlled
cruise control unit, looks to be rock solid and dependable and can work with an H bridge
to contol it with a microcontroller,

nice aluminum case, no cheap plastic bits that are likely to melt

and they have the quick release to idle, should be a way to hold the setting
and drop to engine stop should the processor lose its way or a connection become
faulty

jose' research & development

[dubbleUJay]

Several eons ago, on the old forum, ListeroidsUSA1 was working on an inexpensive electric governor for listeroids (or anything else for that matter).
Jens

ListeroidsUSA1 seems to be Mike Montieth.

Does anyone know him personally that might find out about an update? If the idea was abandoned, at least we'll know were we stand and can look elsewhere.

dubbleUJay

Update:
Apparently from:
Rutherfordton,
North Carolina

[AdeV]

My first thought was to use an RC servo but the ambient temperature around the engine is about 65C and the RC servos are heavy on plastic and are not likely to stand up to this for very long.
At what time should one switch off the glow plugs ? I currently have the glow plugs activated until the engine is running at proper RPM.

I think we're seeing our first servo failure in progress, it doesn't seem to control the RPM quite as tightly as it used to. The servo is mounted quite close to the engine block, IIRC, so heat may well be its killer. It's lasted 10 years, albeit of fairly intermittent use.

As for the plugs: they should be turned off before you crank the engine... In a normal car, you'd see the plugs light go out about 10 seconds after you turn the ignition on; that means they're ready. With a big cast-iron blocked single, you may want to run them a little longer. Ultimately, you need to try it; if the engine won't start without the plugs a-glowin', then you'll have to continue using your current procedure.

[dubbleUJay]

I eventually got in contact with ListeroidsUSA1

He no longer manufacture these governors because of legal problems he encountered.
He does however claim that it worked!

So, now we know, back to the drawing board for a KISS system.   

[dubbleUJay]

He gave me an explanation of how it worked, but I'll have to ask him if I can share it Jens!

It's a little involved, but nothing over the top, simple electronics and it does make sense to me. (If that counts )

I did ask him if he would give an update in this thread though, maybe he'll post some info.
I'll ask again, but maybe there's some "forum politics" involve, I don't know.

[dubbleUJay]

OK guys, ListeroidsUSA1 cannot give any info regarding his discontinued controller.

He gave me a very basic explanation regarding his setup at that time and I cannot take any credit for it.
That said, I've been having the following problems regarding my setup: (220Vac 50hz)

"Lazy Governor"
While set to 51hz with no load, it will drop to 50hz up to about 1/3 load (1000W). Over that up to full load it would drop to 46hz. I got this partly fixed by changing the governor spring assembly around as suggested elsewhere. (It made quit a unexpected difference)
Now its between 48-51hz, but with no load when the engine is hot, it will over-speed to 56hz occasionally.

"Hunting"
While running under any constant load, the frequency varies up and down, not much, I think less than 1hz either way. I can actually see the fuel rack moving in and out, this might be normal, but it seems a bit to much!

While tinkering with the spring tension with my finger while this is happening, I thought about using a secondary spring with less tension on the governor that counteract this problem automatically, with a solenoid applying and releasing the tension of this spring.
The solenoid must be connected/operated by/to something monitoring the speed of the engine. From there the electronic circuitry, which isn't difficult but not a simple solution (KISS) as well.
I suppose one can use a over/under frequency monitor of the shelf, one will just have to shop around for the right one, ie. quick response, auto resettable, range adjustable, exec.

I'm almost finish with my WVO heating project and will come back to this when I'm done.
In the meantime, I dont know if we should open a new thread on this idea, could get interesting? (Jens )

dubbleUJay

[vdubnut62]

Hello men,
I had a neighbor that runs an auto repair business, he was always coming up with some project or other putting engines
from one thing in another etc.
He always swore by an aftermarket cruise control unit for speed control. I asked why didn't he use on of the add on belt drive
governors that were use on projects like the Farm Jeep, I saw one on a Chrysler slant six that powered a huge wood chipper,
one on a welder powered by a flathead four of some kind, any way you get the idea.
  My neighbor told me that they are just too expensive, and hard to find so he would not budge from his electronic cruise control unit
he said just glue on a magnet (or two or three if the rpm range is low) stick your pickup coil on there and wire it up. The biggest
problem that I see is a source of vacuum for the servo.
JC Whitney sells a fully electronic unit (no vacuum), but I think it's a little pricey at $300. There has to be a solution out there
that's simple and cheap,  for example, my son had a Camaro with an electric setup for the cruise control, transducers are available, I would think it's just a matter of reading wiring diagrams and doing a bunch of head scratching. I just wish I had a test bed of some kind.
Maybe someday!
Ron

[dubbleUJay]

Jens, I can probably build the electronic unit, its straight forward, but if you read my previous post, does it seem correct in the way I see things and the way you interpreted of what you read previously on the subject?

In a nutshell: (as I see it)
We will have a solenoid that is either on or off ("in or out", no in between setting), putting just a little extra tension to the existing governor to help it along if the RPM falls.
The solenoid will operate/release fast.
An electronic cct. will operate the solenoid, depending on the RPM it picks up.

If the RPM drops, the cct. will operate the low tension spring, bringing the RPM up, when it reaches the correct RPM, it will release the extra tension. This CAN happen a couple of time a second, but wont, 'cus the speed will take some time to stabilize. We could see some "hunting" with this setup, but I doubt it as the tolerances would be quit narrow.
I also think that if the cct goes faulty, it wouldn't cause runaway as the low-tension spring should only be allowed to add about 2-4hz to the overall governor. It would work like a "auto fine-tune" cct.

Now that I'm writing down my thoughts, it seems that my idea is a bit different from what I have read about the original idea.

For the pickup a speed-motor can be used, but also a magnetic pickup or a direct sensing cct from the AC gen-head.

I hope this all make sense guys, its been a long day ;-)

dubbleUJay

[vdubnut62]

OK Jens, WJ, I hereby withdraw my electronic cruise control idea, Ya'll are "way above my paygrade!
Jens, how big a universal motor would you need? Would one of the high end RC car permanent magnet ball bearing units work? If they would ,sometimes you can pick them up on E-bay for a song.
Ron

[dubbleUJay]

Hi vdubnut62, thanks for your input, it's just that we would like to keep it as simple as possible and to use regular available parts.
I'm sure a speed control can be implemented though, probably through various ways.
Regarding the motor, I recon that any continuous rated small DC motor will work. We just need it to generate a varying voltage in direct relation to the engine speed and a very small current, just to operate a op-amp or window comparator electronic cct.

Jens, the PWM idea is good, but I doubt it if one would get a readily available solenoid to do this, if one goes that way, you should use an actuator, (expensive), but I think in practice the on/off solenoid would actually work in a similar manner. It will be fully on or off, but because of the slow response of the mechanical governor and time it takes for the engine to adjust its revs, it should work by just giving it that extra "oomph" and taking it away when its up to speed. This is why I think we might get a bit of "hunting", but if we keep the frequency window narrow, it should not be a problem.

I can see why the DC motor is the best idea, to keep the electronics to a minimum.
Some more ideas on input sensors that I thought about were:
A contact on the injector pump tappet,
Some type of car points assembly on the camshaft collar by the camshaft end,
A acoustic pickup (peso-transducer or Xtal mic) for the combustion event (I think this might be an idea for a timing light conversion in the future  )
but as you pointed out, all of these would need more electronic circuitry like frequency to voltage converters.

If possible, I would like to "hide" the "pickup" DC motor in the camshaft end cover, driving it of the camshaft, so I'll see if a flat stepper motor, like in a VCR machine or old stiffy drive might work. (These can be wired to give a DC voltage out)
I think those small AC motors in rotisseries and disco mirror balls are quit flat as well and they do have PM's in them.
It can just as well be driven of the flywheels or generator, I just don't want to see it 

I'm no electronic boffin, but I think we need an op-amp (741) and a FET or transistor to drive the solenoid. Maybe a duel op-amp to make a proper window comparator.
The op-amp must be adjustable in relation to its reference voltage and we can power the circuit via a 12v regulator or adj. one like LM317, keepin' it readily available.
Guess I'll have to dust off the ol' electronic project board soon 

On the mechanical side, I think that the important thing about the solenoid will be the travel of the armature and the way it mounts. If I remember correctly, the stiffy drives had a small one in it as well, but it might be to small.
We would need to have an adjustable spring, (something like the existing governor) as well to make up for the variations in different springs we might incorporate.
Once I have these in place, I can look at a mounting bracket of some sort to attach it to the existing governor linkages.

Does these ideas seem reasonably sane Jens? 

dubbleUJay

[BruceM]

I've thought about this issue for some time and I think the simplest solution for a governor assist is an RC servo and a Picaxe 08M chip. It can sense the AC frequency via 1M ohm resistor a couple diodes to an input, and drive an RC servo. RC servos take temps well over 120F, as I used to fly them all summer in Phoenix.  Failure just means the loss of fine tuning, so there's no need for complexity.

There's nothing wrong with PWM'ing a solenoid, but why suffer.

I do have a schematic for this, if anyone would like it.  I haven't had time to work on it further.  

Bruce M

[dubbleUJay]

Hi BruceM, after reading some of your other posts on your Automation Controller, you seem to be one of the top guys here on electronics and programming.

I've been looking for an automation controller myself, but although I can make all the boards and such, I always get to the problem of programming the code into a PIC or what ever micro used, 'cus I don't have the hardware to do it as I presume most of the guys here don't either. I can get them programmed & shipped from somewhere, but I would like to do it myself 

I think using an analog IC and a few parts, this cct should be plain and simple for the ordinary bloke like me to manufacture.

If you have the time, could you maybe draw a schematic for a basic cct to operate a 12v solenoid based on the varying input voltage from a small +/-12Vdc motor, driven from an engine?
I presume an op-amp, regulator and driver for the solenoid should do it, and a pre-set pot or two for adjusting the "input signal", if I might call it that.

I'll scratch around here as well, but I only do electronics as the need arises and a basic thing like a 741 will be a learning curve for me again.
I know the principles behind it, but implementing it is another thing.
It seems that a knowledgeable fellow like yourself could draw this up in his sleep  (The honey is dripping from my fingers as I type) 

Thanks,
dubbleUJay