Bob B's 6/1 and ST5 Project

[sailawayrb]

Hello All,

Well, I finally found the time to find and join this esteemed forum.  My 6/1 & ST5 setup is documented here:

http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=351

Looks to be a great place to hang out.  

Bob B.

[mobile_bob]

well now, very good to see you pop up in our little corner of the world

hopefully you will also find it to your liking and i know you have a lot to share
and help us to understand as well.

welcome abroard

bob g

[BruceM]

Bob B, Good to see you here, and it's fun to admire your outstanding craftsmanship.  My engine room is still quite a bit on the "laboratory prototype" side in comparison.  Your electronics/mechanical work is very impressive.

I'll have to spend some more time reviewing your photos for more ideas to steal (the sincerest form of flattery), but the use of crankcase vacuum for propane safety control is one gem I noticed on the first look, since intake manifold vacuum isn't so grand on these machines.

I hope to add propane in the future.  My crude load/propane manually metered tests also showed about 85% as a max percent propane, though I'd probably reduce compression a bit for sustained running with that high a percent of propane.

Thanks, and welcome!
BruceM

   

[sailawayrb]

Bob G., thanks and it indeed looks like you have a very nice corner and many things to my liking.  Please keep it that way!  I was very impressed with Magic Jack's homestead project.  Radiant floor heating via hot water and pex is something I need learn about as it is in my future plans as well.  I have been excessively busy at Boeing, at our new OR ranch (where I plan to have hydro power), and at home.  However, the youngest, second, and last son passed his Eagle Scout Board of Review two weeks ago, so that should free me up somewhat to spend some time around here getting ideas for future projects.

BruceM, good to see you here too and thanks for the compliments.  Please feel free to steal whatever you like and if you have any questions, please let me know and I would be happy to clarify/answer.  Yes, I originally used intake manifold vacuum for the propane safety purpose and it worked OK provided that I used plastic check valve in the line.  However, when I added the Murphy oil level switch for the emergency shutdown system, you have to vent it to the crankcase.  It became apparent that there is a significant vacuum in crankcase when the engine is running (i.e., a check valve wasn't needed to maintain adequate vacuum) and this ultimately provided a more eloquent solution for the propane safety issue as well.

Bob B.

[BruceM]

Bob B- Another of your inventions that looks interesting for folks who need emergency shut down is your CO2 emergency shut down system.  Questions:  Is it just plumbed into the intake manifold, and what do you use for valve?  What's the max pressure in the tank?

[sailawayrb]

Bob B- Another of your inventions that looks interesting for folks who need emergency shut down is your CO2 emergency shut down system.  Questions:  Is it just plumbed into the intake manifold, and what do you use for valve?  What's the max pressure in the tank?

Hi Bruce,

Yes, it is just plumbed into intake manifold like the propane system.  I used a 12VDC solenoid  air control valve (20 psi min operating pressure and 150 psi max pressure limit, McMaster-Carr P/N 6124K161).  

I don't recall the actual tank pressure of the CO2 tank (just a standard tank used for dispensing soft drinks/beer), however, the tank regulator is set for 115 psi to stay below the 150 psi air valve max pressure limit while still being high enough to generate the required CO2 flow rate to intake manifold.  I used a cryogenic relief valve (35 psi set pressure, McMaster-Carr P/N  49315K112) to achieve the required 20 psi min air valve operating threshold.  This 20 psi pressure is used in conjunction with the air valve solenoid, to drive closed the air valve when the emergency shutdown system is "armed" by first energizing air valve solenoid by pressing the latching solenoid relay located on the emergency shutdown control panel and then manually opening the CO2 tank valve.  

For emergency shutdown, the air valve opens (driven open by the 115 psi supply pressure) when power is removed from solenoid by the emergency shutdown system for any of the reasons mentioned in the description.  

I calculated the CO2 flow rate that would be necessary to ensure engine suffocation and then made sure that the regulator (which is the high flow rate type used for operating pneumatic air tools using a CO2 tank when off-roading), pneumatic valve, relief valve, and the associated plumbing would supply this required CO2 flow rate at the 115 psi supply pressure.  I think I still have the flow rate calculation if that's of any help to you.

My setup is located inside our house, so I absolutely needed an emergency system that I could depend on when not around to monitor things.

Bob B.

[BruceM]

Thanks, Bob.  That answers my questions.  I'm not looking for a new system, but plenty of guys are interested in approaches for emergency shut down. Your CO2 system is the first I've ever seen of that type.  With standard air valves, there's not a lot of mechanical fabrication.

[veggie]

Bob,

Very nice setup !
I could not quite make it out in your pictures.
Does your system have a glycol circ pump or is it a thermosyphon cooling system ?

veggie

[sailawayrb]

Thanks Veggie.  I don't have any water cooling pump...all cooling is 100% thermosyphon.  The Geo Metro radiator has 12VDC fan that cycles on when necessary...typically only necessary during hot summer days.  I don't have any oil pump either...all oil lubrication is 100% splashing from dipper...which is adequate for a TRB listeroid provided the dipper doesn't fail.

Bob B.

[sailawayrb]

My setup was fairly well documented via a photo album on the Lister Engine Forum (LEF) many years ago. In fact, it had by far the most views by perhaps a factor of 100. Unfortunately, LEF apparently didn't properly maintain their site and everyone's information was lost. So here is a synopsis (copied from another thread to explain this to Veggie) and some photos given the recent interest.

I have an auto/manual emergency engine shutdown system, an electrical disconnect system, a vegetable oil fuel system and a LPG fumigation system. All systems use simple relay switch logic to accomplish their functionality.

The auto/manual emergency engine shutdown system operates by injecting a canister of CO2 into the engine intake to suffocate the engine and shut it down. A solenoid valve is triggered and opened if engine vibration becomes excessive, smoke or CO are detected, engine RPM gets high, coolant temp gets high, oil level gets low or diesel fuel tank level gets low...or a big red button is pushed... At the time, the engine was built on resilient mount isolation stand within the attached garage of our suburban home only a couple feet away from our living room with young children...making safety the only objective.

The electrical disconnect system operates by opening the generator power lines between it and the transfer switch whenever voltage or frequency exceeds the allowed tolerances. Primary objective was to ensure that a brownout situation would not be created if engine were to shutdown while still powering the house. System just uses a voltage/frequency switch with settable thresholds and solid state power relays.

The vegetable oil fuel system just heats the oil to required temp and then switches from diesel fuel to oil when this occurs. It also switches from oil back to diesel fuel when the oil tank gets low. The system just uses oil temp sensor and an oil tank level sensor to open/close diesel/oil solenoid valve.

The LPG fumigation system is a manual system. Just a LPG tank, regulator and manual valve to inject LPG into the engine intake to remove carbon when scheduled.

The resilient mount design isolates about 98% of the hopping energy so it doesn't creep or move around.  I designed and put a calculator on my website about 15 years ago so folks could successfully design similar resilient mount stands. 

https://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Isolation_Stand_Design_Calculator.html

[sailawayrb]

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