48V charging via ST generator and solar charge controller (no ST mod)

[mbryner]

Pity your existing AC charge capability insists on routing AC through.  I'd contact Outback and see if there is a possible mod to change this.  An AVR and governor fix might also be in order. The AVR solves most of the problem, it will keep voltage up even though frequency varies.

So, I've looked carefully through the Outback wiring diagrams, and technical documents on their website.   There doesn't seem to be any mod.   Seems reasonable, though, if an inverter is just a transformer, rectifier, and a bunch of fancy proprietary electronics:  you can't put electricity through a transformer in both directions at once.  When it's charging, there's no possible way to get clean power through the inverter, unless they put another transformer or set of transformers in the box.

Re: starters-  I wonder if there are enough guys interested that Dave (XYZ'er) might consider making a batch of 12V friction starter kits?  His design looks like winner, and except for outside sets (rain, frost) friction starters are simple and reliable. 

I like his friction starter mod.  and I'd be interested.   I've also thought of another starter mod --> has anyone bolted a ring gear onto the ST or alternator pully and then mounted a starter to that?

Marcus

[BruceM]

Yes, Marcus, I do think I've seen generator mounted starters on the LEF forum.  That makes for a more manageable sized starter ring.

[SteveU.]

Member Jens did gen head mounted "Flex plate" (because they were designed to be a flexible coupler!) ring gear starter set up.
Ask him.
JTodd on the LEF also had an earlier type remotly mounted belt drive ringgear/diesel starter set up. He changes to direct drive due to the niose of the faster spinning ring gear on the indirect.
Ask them.

Regards
SteveU.

[mobile_bob]

shipchief who is also a member here, was the first to remote mount a chevy flex plate to the st head
to make a starter for his 25/2

i have seen it operated and it works well, even on a rather large application like the big twin, it should spin
the ass off of a 6/1

bob g

[Jedon]

you can't put electricity through a transformer in both directions at once.  When it's charging, there's no possible way to get clean power through the inverter, unless they put another transformer or set of transformers in the box.

The Xantrex manual states that in the case where more watts are needed than the generator alone can provide, that it can supplement it from the batteries.

[BruceM]

Jedon, That might mean the Xantrex could be modified... I'd write to Xantrex, tell them your model number and what you'd like to do.  Who knows, they might actually have tech support. 

[Jedon]

I'll give it a shot, not expecting much though since they can't even keep spam out of their forum and it took them a month to reply to my request for a generator start module that I was just SOL.

[mbryner]

The Xantrex manual states that in the case where more watts are needed than the generator alone can provide, that it can supplement it from the batteries.

Jedon,  I think they are taking the generator power and sync'ing the inverter to it, then combining power from the generator and batteries.   Still power is only going one direction through the inverter at a time.  With a listeroid, this would cause lots of trouble, with RPM's going up and down.   I just envision a disconnect by the inverter because the 'roid can't keep up, causing an overload situation on the 'roid, tripping breakers.   On the positive side, when running on generator power you aren't limited to the ~3000 watts output of a 6/1.

Thank you all.  Very encouraging about the ring-gear on an ST head.   Deserves a bit more research.   Hey, SteveU. good to hear from you!

[Jedon]

The inverter is a bit fancier than that, you can set max passthough amps so just set it low enough not to cause the listeroid to stall. The inverter does kick stop taking power from the listeroid whenever any part of the power falls out of spec but it happens in ms so it's not noticeable. Hey maybe I can set the passthrough amps to 0?! Why didn't I think of that before. I'll give that a try today.

[Geno]

I figured I'd continue my "Smoothing Capacitor" thread here since Marcus and I are attempting to do the same thing in a somewhat different way. Any objections?

At this point I'm not smoothing the dc and as long as the Flexmax stays happy that's what I'll continue to do.

The stud mount diodes came in the other day and I mounted them to the heat sink and hooked everything up. It's been running about 6 hours today and everything's working well. The Outback puts out between 27 and 32 amps and is set at 31. The Listeroid is putting out 2000-2300 watts and there are some loads in the engine room which are not on the Outback. I'm not getting any significant heat from the UPS, batteries, rectifier heat sink, transformer or the Outback. The Outback fan does kick on for less than a minute every 5-10 minutes but is only warm to the touch. My basement where everything is located is about 50°F.

I did a load of laundry to increase the engine load above what the Listeroid would normally see. During this test the water pressure booster pump and the sump pump came on intermittently. The engine load remained constant and the needed amps were pulled off the battery bank. After the test was over the batteries came back up to voltage quickly but never went below 50vdc.

Even with this inefficient UPS and under normal winter house loads I still need to keep a 600watt space heater running in the back room to keep a good load on the engine. That's nice to see.

One funny thing. I was out in the gen shed and noticed a very low load on the engine (600 watts) by the time I got back to the basement the Outback was charging normally. The manual says it recalibrates VOC from time to time and maybe that was it.

If anyone buys stud mount diodes try to find ones with long studs. I couldn't double nut mine and I didn't even have enough room for a washer.

Listeroid/ST5/120vac---->120 to 70vac transformer---->Bridge rectifier feeds 98vdc to---->Outback Flexmax60---->48v Battery bank---->Inverter---->120vac to main panel.

Thanks, Geno

[mbryner]

Hey Geno,  good to have some more input.   I've been following your smoothing capacitor thread, too.   Welcome over here.   Looks like you don't have any electrical inspections coming up -- nothing in conduit (!), but easier for us to see what you did.   So you're not smoothing the rectified DC at all now?

[Geno]

I will certainly be cleaning up and addressing the safety issues once I'm sure everything is good to go. I do understand the power in those dc lines.

No smoothing at all, straight from the rectifier into the Outback. So far so good. I've been monitoring everything very closely all day. It's nice to be able to run an extra 1000+ watts for a little while without turning anything else off. I can't overload the engine either. It cost me a good bit but I saved a lot doing it myself and finding the right deal.

Thanks, Geno

[BruceM]

Thats great Geno! Nice full load testing. 

Keep an eye on the Flexmax "no load" times;  it's possible the Flexmax is getting confused by your "lumpy" DC, if it's doing it too frequently.  If not too frequent, hooray, you saved some bucks on  filtering.

Reminder to others trying this-  Geno did some very smart, careful testing (short runs) at low charge rates to make sure the Flexmax was functioning OK (operating normally and no excessive heating) with unfiltered (just rectified) DC.

The whole project is an impressive piece of first class DIY systems engineering with largely surplus gear.

Congratulations, Geno.

[mobile_bob]

Geno:

you get a solid 10 for persistence and a working solution to the problem, hats off to you for that.

now we need to take the next step and see how we increase the efficiency?
which may or may not be important to you or others?

good work



bob g

[mbryner]

Yes, very impressive Geno.   I wouldn't have had the cahones to pump that unfiltered power into the Flexmax.

it's possible the Flexmax is getting confused by your "lumpy" DC, if it's doing it too frequently.

Keep us updated, because if this works I may not have to put in a choke and capacitor.