Turning meter backwards!

[bschwartz]

Although HORRIBLY full of losses, I am currently turning my meter backwards!!!!
I've got the listeroid 6/1 turning a 6.5KW PMG producing 120V AC.  Plugged into that is a 19V 33 amp DC power supply.  Plugged into that is an Ebay 250W micro grid tie inverter, plugged into a dedicated circuit to my breaker panel.  The Kill-A-Watt that the power supply is plugged into shows a 295 watt draw.  The Kill-A-Watt between the inverter an the breaker (YES, they work backwards too) shows 208 watts into the grid. Ugly, but for a first test, it is a HUGE success!!!! My electric meter is actually turning backwards.  So far today, I've turned it back about 1.75 kilowatts!!!

[rl71459]

Congrat's! That is Great. Did you have to install a different meter?

I was told that here... the standard meter cannot run backwards.

I would love to see my meter running backwards!

Rob

[bschwartz]

I didn't do anything to the meter.  It is a standard type with rotating pointers for total kilowatt hours, and the spinning disk in the middle.  One reason I started with the cheap 250w ebay grid-tie inverter was to see if it would work.  Our city utility company said it wouldn't work........ I guess they just never tried.  I don't have a net metering agreement with them, so they wouldn't buy back any excess i produce, but if I can just run it backwards while I have the generator running, then forward  (refrigerator, freezer etc.) when I'm not home, I can lower my bill a bit.  At a max of .25 KW/H right now, I won't cancel out my bill, but maybe reduce it slightly.  I just bought one of the 150W 24V alternators on ebay for $125.  When that comes in, I can hook it up and get some more small inverters as money permits.  It will eliminate the power supply losses I have now.  My next step is 3 more inverters, so I can turn back the meter at about 1 KW per hour.  Still spending more money than I'm saving, but having a bunch of fun in the process.

[TimSR2]

I once did it accidentally  for 4 hours with my diesel genny on a load test.  Somehow I could not get over 59.9 hz no matter what the load.....

Yes I know what you are thinking, stop yelling at me!

TimSR2

[mobile_bob]

lmao

too funny, hard to outrun the grid isn't it?

bob g

[WGB]

I once did it accidentally  for 4 hours with my diesel genny on a load test.  Somehow I could not get over 59.9 hz no matter what the load.....

Yes I know what you are thinking, stop yelling at me!

TimSR2

That is where the grid runs around here 59.9 hz.

[bschwartz]

  Ooohhhh..... lucky no smokey!!!

[rl71459]

It would be interesting to hear from more folks on this subject.... A local electrician
near me says he has done this multiple times with a 9KW genset without anything
more than a set of quick blow fuses sized for 8KW! He claims that if the utility went
down the fuses blow due to the inrush required.   

Their is also a lineman that verifies the story and says that more people also do the same.

I am not suggesting that anyone should do this or that it is legal... I'm sure it is
not.

But something tells me someone knows more than they are saying.

[TimSR2]

I guess that's another one of the many benefits of my v belt drive.....as the grid violently yanks the rotor into sync, the belt gives enough to keep from breaking my  crankshaft, coupler or flywheel key. In the case of a power outage the breakers would click out pretty instantly, as there would be heavy over current. Would I ever try it again ---- hell no!

Long ago I had a Suzuki 3000w gas generator I borrowed from a friend during a long and nasty winter power outage. I didn't know what I was doing and backfed the grid and blew the fuse. That's right it had fuses in it! Not just any fuse, but special Suzuki fuses that you had to buy from a Suzuki dealer. Not a good setup if you live 50 miles from the nearest Suzuki generator dealer. Never again!

Turning the meter backwards is AFAIK theoretically  possible everywhere; this is the basis of Guerrilla Solar, or what they are now calling 'micro grid intertie' inverters on ebay. Just as transformers work forwards and backwards....so does the CT in your meter. However the true cost of generating your own electricity is so high that in most areas that it is just not worth the risk/cost/time.

[bschwartz]

The micro grid tie inverters do have anti islanding protection built in.  You can back feed the grid only as long as the grid is connected.  If the grid goes dark, the inverters stop putting out power.  It is a built in safety.  There is no yanking anything into phase.  The inverters constantly sample the voltage and frequency of the grid and self align its output to match.  That is what makes them so simple and foolproof.  Hook up DC source to inverter and plug it into an available outlet.  I just happen to be generating my DC from a WVO powered generator instead of solar panels or wind.  I wouldn't feel comfortable risking a direct tie from my gen head output directly into the grid, even as an experiment.  As far as cost and time, cost is less than solar panels, and time..... well, its a hobby.

[LowGear]

Interesting concept.  Do you have any kind of efficiency rating on your 150 Amp – 28 Volt DC generator?  Let's see.  150 * 28 = 4200 Watts.  4200 / 250 = 16+ inverters.

I live where 85% of the electricity is generated with diesel.  So with me it's not only a hobby but also a non invasive war against the oil cartel.

Casey

[bschwartz]

Grrrr... Turns out I may not be able to use the 24 volt alt after all.  The 600w ebay grid tie inverters (2) were listed as 24 volt.  It looks like they were actually designed to run on 48 volt.  This may be stalled out till I finish the BS ST mod ( Rewire the ST to 60 volts) to run the inverters.  At least they were cheap.

[Bill]

Although HORRIBLY full of losses, I am currently turning my meter backwards!!!!
I've got the listeroid 6/1 turning a 6.5KW PMG producing 120V AC.  Plugged into that is a 19V 33 amp DC power supply.  Plugged into that is an Ebay 250W micro grid tie inverter, plugged into a dedicated circuit to my breaker panel.  The Kill-A-Watt that the power supply is plugged into shows a 295 watt draw.  The Kill-A-Watt between the inverter an the breaker (YES, they work backwards too) shows 208 watts into the grid. Ugly, but for a first test, it is a HUGE success!!!! My electric meter is actually turning backwards.  So far today, I've turned it back about 1.75 kilowatts!!!

About a year ago, the local Co-op electric company started installing new meters that are read from up to 150 feet away.  It looks like an LCD display.

  I was wondering if anyone had experience with these type of meters and what they do with a backfeed voltage from co-generation?

Thanks,
Bill

[mobile_bob]

it depends on how the utility has the meters programmed, and what parameters they are looking for and want to read
the new digital meters read power in and power out, along with a couple three hundred other parameters,

most utilities only program a few in and read maybe 2 or 3 with any regularity.

my local utility company just laughed when i asked them if they could program a test meter for me, they told me they just buy them
preprogrammed with iirc 3 metered parameters, and thats all they care to read.

might be different if they caught on one was back feeding the grid though, in which case they can read everything  you can imagine about
the power they deliver you and what you are sending back, and i do mean everything. they just have to program the head to read what they want
which is done via an optical link and takes just a few seconds.

bob g

[rbodell]

My power company won't buy power or even allow you to connect to the crid and give them free power which I wouldn't do anyhow. That is OK though, I just bought a smaller generator and only tun heavy draw things like my welder on the grid. Most months my bill is only for the meter rental.

They came out several times to find out how I was stealing electricity. One of the guys was pretty cool about it so I asked if he wanted to see how I was stealing electricity. He said yes, so I showed him my losteroid. he laughed. Now he brings me waste oil.