Engine Break-In and Synthetics

[veggie]

Can you break-in your engine on synthetic lubricants?
See what Mobil has to say.....
"Myths About Synthetic Oils"

https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Myths.aspx

Veggie

[cgwymp]

The key sentence is this:

The fact is, current engine manufacturing technology does not require this break-in period.

I doubt that applies to the home engine builder....

[vdubnut62]

Well, that would apply to today's modern engines, but the key here is we are working with, for the most part 60 to 80 year old engine technology.
I wonder, if someone asked Exxon-Mobile about what we are doing here with what are basically "new antiques" what their response would be?
Ron

[mike90045]

I wonder how the Load & Idle sequence will work on a diesel with no vacuum to "suck particles out of the rings" to be blown out the exhaust ?  But I'd use a conventional oil, not synthetic, till rings are seated.

Are listieroid rings beveled to capture the combustion gas, and wedge them to the cylinder walls ?

--
metro in < 7 days and waiting...

[veggie]

metro in < 7 days and waiting...

Finally !.... congrats. How long has it been since you dreamed of this ?

Veggie

[cognos]

I haven't read the Mobil One boilerplate yet, but I know that they screw around with the formulation enough to know that there is no single answer to that question.

The original formulation of Mobil One back in the 70's bears little resemblance to today's formulation. It's different today than what it was 5 years ago. The base stock is different. The additives have changed.

The formulation of what is called "first fill" crankcase oil for vehicles - what they put in the crankcase at the factory the first time - is often different than the oil purchased by the consumer for subsequent changes, even though it may say that there is "Mobil One 10W30", it might have a different formulation than what you can buy. Why do they do this? For break-in! Not all the time, but it happens - with all manufacturers of vehicles and oils! Oil companies bid on "first fill" contracts, based on specs provided by the engine builder...

I'm not picking on Mobil One, they all do it. You pay a big premium for synthetics, and often, they don't provide the lubrication performance increase that they convince you you are paying for.

I don't think anyone ever lost any money by breaking in an engine (whether it is "required today or not...) on conventional oil... switch to synthetic later, if you so desire...

[wormshoe]

" I don't think anyone ever lost any money by breaking in an engine (whether it is "required today or not...) on conventional oil... switch to synthetic later, if you so desire... "


I agree with the use of conventional oil for the initial operating period.

Breaking in an auto-engine used to be (maybe not anymore) event-related as opposed to time-related.  Certain changes had to take place before it was considered fit for service. It was not uncommon to put four of your biggest friends in a car....then alternately load and unload (moderately)....finishing with one moderately-loaded run-up, all in about 30 minutes or so.  Change the oil and then put the boots to it. It was ready. The rings would always seat and all of the other machined surfaces would be happy.

If I were still doing rebuilds today, I would initially run a conventional oil and then drain it.  These synthetic oils appear to be just the ticket for extending the life of a properly broken-in engine, especially effective during a cold start warm-up. All hell breaks loose during the first few minutes of a frigid start (reminds me of someone I used to know...) and it seems to me that's where the synthetic stuff pays off in a big way.

I have driven the same pickup for twenty years so I have gotten to know her pretty well.  It ran conventional oil for the first 30k miles and then I switched to synthetic. The only difference that was immediately evident was the speed at which the starter would crank her over on first start-up in the morning.  It spun over noticeably faster...almost as if the oil had hung around all night just waiting for the daily grind to begin. It impressed me. It has run synthetic ever since.

Just my two cents....

[Henry W]

You can run synthetic while breaking in an engine. But the best thing to do is use dino oil and frequent oil changes. Why waste money on synthetic during break in.

Henry

[vdubnut62]

Probably ten years ago (or longer they say memory is the first thing to go, I forgot the second thing) I had a Massey Ferguson riding mower
with an 8 hp Kohler engine, splash lubed and I used straight 30wt non-detergent oil in it for a couple of years, and everything was good.
One day I decided it was time for an oil change, and since I had heard all about the wonders of synthetic oil, and I happened to have a couple
quarts of Mobil One lying around, I made use of it. The engine was warm, I had been mowing and it was running topnotch, I drained and refilled the engine with my Mobil One, carefully checked the level, and fired her up. Within 60 seconds, just running with no load at fast idle, the engine seized.
I mean locked up tight! I ended up having to rebore the scarred cylinder and turn the crankshaft where the rod seized to it. Looked like I had run it with no oil at all. Thus ended my trials of synthetic oil in a splash lubed engine. I know this was just one instance, and I really don't know what to make of the experience, but it did convince me.

Now on the other hand, I currently own  a 2004 Toyota Camry with well over 200k miles on that I would use nothing else but Mobile One in.
The car still runs like new, uses no oil and still has the original timing chain. I was concerned and did call Toyota about recommended timing chain
service intervals, and they told me they didn't know they had never had to change one in that particular engine. So draw your own conclusions from that, I guess.
Just my two cents worth.
Ron

[cognos]

Hey guys - synthetic oil is dino oil - it's not magic, it's just a very pure product made a slightly different way than just regular old lube feedstock, both of which are distilled from crude oil.

It has a different distillation curve, and it takes different additives.

That's it, that's all. I know for a fact that regular lube oil in an engine will perform equally as well as synthetic oil - the qualifier here is not for as long and/or  under severe conditions.

If you change your oil regularly, regular oil will do. Trust me...

Now - if you regularly run your engine under severe conditions or use non-standard fuels,  go ahead, use the syn - it'll give you some extra protection. Likewise if you like to let your oil stay in the engine a little longer than the owner's manual recommends...

If you have a high-dollar car that runs up in the higher RPMS, or you track it - syn it is for me. Turbocharger? Supercharger? Syn, syn, syn. Won't coke your bearings on shutdown after a high-temperature run. Recommended or required for warranty? Definitely, especially if you have one of those "oil life" algorithms that tells you when to change your oil (like all modern  BMWs - even the ones without dipsticks not behind the wheel ) - the algorithm is based on the known qualities of the recommended oil versus measured driving conditions. Use a different oil, all bets are off, because there are currently no oil "goodness" sensors in your engine that actually test it for anything other than level...

I should mention that those oil-life algorithms in "high end" vehicles make me laugh... no one in North America will ever legally run those vehicles hard enough to require the protection that syn gives... it's a marketing ploy that bestows some kind of percieved exclusivity to the right kind of customer...

Me? I buy syn - for my wifes car - it's a Honda Fit. Since I don't drive it every day, and I'm not responsible for making sure the oil is changed on schedule (oh wait, I am... ), plus, it has one of those damned oil life indicators.

I don't use syn in anything else I own. And I could, I get it cheap... I change my vehicle engine oil every 3500-5000 kms. Everything else, I do what the manual tells me.

Now - synthetic for turbines, compressors, hydraulics.... completely different animal than just engine oil. Much more expensive, and in my opinion, worth it.

As far as I know - there is no reason that the situation described by vdubnut with his MF mower could have been caused by the synthetic oil alone. Syn is compatible with regular, it is perfectly OK to mix them as long as they are the same type (mix 10W40 with 10W40, ND with ND, for example). It has to be - for a very strange reason - if it isn't, the Department of National Defense won't buy it. And since the Department of National Defense is the largest single purchaser of lube oil in my country (and I have no reason to doubt the same applies for wherever you might live), great care is taken in this "compatablity" regard by the major suppliers or lube oils...

Although it doesn't sound possible - I'd be willing to bet that in vdub's case, the syn "shook something loose" in some dark crevasse of the engine. It does have the ability to do that, it's detergents can be pretty agressive.

Just my experience...

[vdubnut62]

Cognos, thanks for the information. That particular episode has bothered me for years, I have wracked my brain trying to figure out just what could have possibly gone wrong.
Ron

[Henry W]

Hey guys - synthetic oil is dino oil - it's not magic, it's just a very pure product made a slightly different way than just regular old lube feedstock, both of which are distilled from crude oil.

It has a different distillation curve, and it takes different additives.

That's it, thats's all. I know for a fact that regular lube oil in an engine will perform equally as well as synthetic oil - the qualifier here is not for as long and/or  under severe conditions.

If you change your oil regularly, regular oil will do. Trust me...

Now - if you regularly run your engine under severe conditions or use non-standard fuels,  go ahead, use the syn - it'll give you some extra protection. Likewise if you like to let your oil stay in the engine a little longer than the owner's manual recommends...

If you have a high-dollar car that runs up in the higher RPMS, or you track it - syn it is for me. Turbocharger? Supercharger? Syn, syn, syn. Won't coke your bearings on shutdown after a high-temperature run. Recommended or required for warranty? Definitely, especially if you have one of those "oil life" algorithms that tells you when to change your oil (like all modern  BMWs - even the ones without dipsticks not behind the wheel ) - the algorithm is based on the known qualities of the recommended oil versus measured driving conditions. Use a different oil, all bets are off, because there are currently no oil "goodness" sensors in your engine that actually test it for anything other than level...

I should mention that those oil-life algorithms in "high end" vehicles make me laugh... no one in North America will ever legally run those vehicles hard enough to require the protection that syn gives... it's a marketing ploy that bestows some kind of percieved exclusivity to the right kind of customer...

Me? I buy syn - for my wifes car - it's a Honda Fit. Since I don't drive it every day, and I'm not responsible for making sure the oil is changed on schedule (oh wait, I am... ), plus, it has one of those damned oil life indicators.

I don't use syn in anything else I own. And I could, I get it cheap... I change my vehicle engine oil every 3500-5000 kms. Everything else, I do what the manual tells me.

Now - synthetic for turbines, compressors, hydraulics.... completely different animal than just engine oil. Much more expensive, and in my opinion, worth it.

As far as I know - there is no reason that the situation described by vdubnut with his MF mower could have been caused by the synthetic oil alone. Syn is compatible with regular, it is perfectly OK to mix them as long as they are the same type (mix 10W40 with 10W40, ND with ND, for example). It has to be - for a very strange reason - if it isn't, the Department of National Defense won't buy it. And since the Department of National Defense is the largest single purchaser of lube oil in my country (and I have no reason to doubt the same applies for wherever you might live), great care is taken in this "compatablity" regard by the major suppliers or lube oils...

Although it doesn't sound possible - I'd be willing to bet that in vdub's case, the syn "shook something loose" in some dark crevasse of the engine. It does have the ability to do that, it's detergents can be pretty agressive.

Just my experience...

Hello cognos,

Here is a brief summary of different grades of oil.

Motor oils are derived from base stocks. That is, a generic oil base is modified with additives to produce a lubricant with the desired properties. A base stock oil with no additives would not perform very well at all. Base stocks are classified by the American Petroleum Institute (API) and fall into one of five categories.

Group I and II - these are mineral oils derived from crude oil
Group III - this is a highly refined mineral oil made through a process called hydrocracking. In North America this group is considered a synthetic oil, for marketing purposes.
Group IV - these are true synthetic oils, known as Polyalphaolefin (PAO).
Group V - these are synthetic stocks other than PAO's and include esters and other compounds.

As you see there are different Grades of synthetic oils. The synthetic oil you are talking about is a Group III oil.


Cogno wrote:
I know for a fact that regular lube oil in an engine will perform equally as well as synthetic oil - the qualifier here is not for as long and/or  under severe conditions.

I agree with you a 100% on this. Most dino oil will perform equally on most applications but not as long. And under servere conditions this would be the time to look at a good synthetic oil.
In most cases frequent oil changes will keep you covered.

I have a mowing buisness as an extra income and the Kawasaki air cooled engines see 3600 RPM's at full load quite often in very hot weather. This is one application where I use a GOOD full synthetic oil. These engines run HOT and I still do 50 hr. oil changes.

I believe running a synthetic oil in a Listeroid in most cases is a wast of money. These engines have lots of mass and are slow running and the oil has a hard time to get to temperature at times. These engines just don't make much heat.

We can get into this deeply but I see where this could lead if people do not research it some first. It seems like you have a good understanding what is going on but with all the hype on running synthetics from the oil companies I can see where this will get some people confused.

Here is a good site: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

Well here we go. The never ending debate on oil.

Henry

[cognos]

I'm familiar with the 3 "grades" of syn.

In many plants, all lubes are hydrotreated, plants have done this for many years to increase the stability of lube oil. We never called it synthetic - the Ad Men called it synthetic. Now, hydrotreated lubes are sold as "synthetics." For many years, hydrotreated lubes were sold along side "regular' oils, and most motor oil contain some hydrotreated blendstock to this day - it became a marketing tool to make a distinction. No question, fully hydrotreated oils are very, very good.

Even grade 4 and 5 are still made from crude oil, or in some cases, natural gas (rare, seriously expensive). I suppose one could take any manner of precursor feedstock, and chemically design the molecule you wanted... but in the end, it would still resemble something distilled, cracked, or made form crude... These synthetics are "assembled" rather than straight distilled or blended. But the difference between the 3 grades is small, they all fit the specifications of regular lube feedstocks for a stated purpose.

In the refinery, we like olefins - like butylene or propylene, any thing with an "ene" on it - these are byproducts of gasoline production, and are products of refinery units that "crack" longer-chain feeds into more usable molecules. Propylene and butylene are taken to other refinery units and reacted to form gasoline, plastic monomers, and polyalphaolefinic feeds... PAO "synthetic" oils. Which are sent to lube blending. They have just taken a slightly longer path 'round the plant to arrive at the same place as the other lube feedstocks...

No question, it is easier to assemble a grade 4 or 5 oil for a specialized application - like turbine or hydraulic oils. They can be designed to accept different additives or perform under specialized conditions. But really, with a bit of extra processing, regular lube feedstock can be made to perform almost exactly like syns...

[BruceM]

An off topic question about oils, for Cognos;

I had a heck of a time finding an oil for my air compressor that didn't make me ill when using air tools-  after my chemical injury, oil vapors and even oil on my hands give me whopping headaches. (Better now than it once was, but I still have to wear gloves and be careful.)  The compressor and tank is 50 feet from the shop here at my on-grid home.   I had no luck until trying white mineral oil.  That I can get away with, and for 15 years have run that in my 2 stage compressor.  I know it's crap for lubrication, but I a mans gotta do...

I wondered what's different about white mineral oil, and what, if anything, I could try that might be better, or if something could be added to improve the lube properties?

On my new off grid setup, the distance to the compressor is so long (over 450 feet of 1" pipe to the 500 gallon receiver tank), that I don't notice any oil fumes from my air motor driven tools, using the recommended synthetic compressor oil. 

[cognos]

White mineral oil, if it's the same stuff you're using - same stuff you can buy at the drug store for rubbing on sore muscles?

Very clear, viscous, low odor oil distilled from crude oil. I don't have any specs on it, and I've never been anywhere they make the stuff, so I don't know any more about it than you do... I'll see what I can dig up...

I needed some to refill an old ship's compass - only time I've ever uded the stuff. Bought it at the local drug store. Seemed pretty slippery to me!

As far as a decent low-tox oil - I would recommend synthetic Non-Detergent - what you are already using.

Now - there are some non-toxic, hypo-allergenic, low volatility, very specialised oil for use in hospital equipment. I know they're out there, but I know nothing about them...

I have an allergy to amines. Amine allergy is very common in the industry. There's amines in almost every consumer-grade oil product - lubes and fuels. One in particular is very common - phenylene diamine, is used as an anti-oxidant. It's everywhere. I used to deal with the pure product diluted 50% with naphtha. For years, you're not allergic to it, then one day your body says Enough! I can't get near the stuff now - it causes contact dermatitis and can give you a nasty headache, and can irritate your lungs... all kinds of other stuff...

First rule of refineries and chemical plants - if you wouldn't be comfortable drinking a glass of something, then don't breathe it or let it touch your skin!

My allergy isn't serious enough to bother me - I just have to stay away from areas where there may be high concentrations of the stuff. But since I'm aware of it, I stay away from all amines, wherever possible.