Build a Lego home

[Henry W]

Now this is very interesting. Build a home like using Lego blocks. I would like to see one in person.

https://youtu.be/MIKJG-iMKwY

[Tom Reed]

The comments there are a crackup. Our house has a daylight basement that we did with insulated concrete forms. I would build with them again.

[Henry W]

I'm still curious about the product. I'm not an architect or engineer but for making a 400 sqft single level home I would think it would be pretty strong. I'm wondering what the R factor of the walls would be. On locking the blocks together I would think long lengths of pointed rebar can be slammed through the foam to lock everything together not only that, firing strips can be fastened on inside and outside walls.

I think it's pretty interesting. How long will a home built with this product will last? Time will tell. One thing that concerns me is the toxicity of the chemicals that are used. They had to use some type of preservative on the OSB. And what's in the foam? Did they use formaldehyde? If they did, is the amount used at safe levels for people with asthma or other autoimmune disorders?

[LowGear]

Thanks for the video.  A couple of finished product moments would have been nice.

I wonder how these would do in a hurricane?  I also keep wondering how the outside walls were going to be wired?

Neat idea.  To be 13 and build one of these?  Heaven.  Simply Heaven.

[sailawayrb]

Wow, that's an absolutely terrible construction approach...  Very expensive, electrical/plumbing nightmare, lots of tiny crappy OSB sections to fail, rot and warp,  and very weak structurally.  I didn't think it was possible to get worse than Structural Insulated Panels (SIPs), but I guess it is...and another illustration of how clueless and ignorant people can be.  Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF) is really the only way to accomplish construction these days IMHO.

[Henry W]

Actually, Plumbing would be no problem. I'm thinking a concrete slab would be the easiest.  So all plumbing would be under the slab. Wet and/or dry venting is easy, the walls need to be fir'd to accept up to 3" sch 40 dwv pvc pipe in certain areas. A water heated slab for the cold days. Electrical, the walls need to be fir'd anyways. A 16x28 inside structure of 448 sqft. that can be sectioned off with one bedroom with walk in closet, bath with washer and dryer and kitchen/Living room would be be very easy to do. Nothing fancy.

About OSB rot. Yes I agree this could be a huge problem. Unless they came up with some new type of resin impregnated OSB we don't know about. Then what about toxic fumes gassing out of the materials? One thing for sure I won't be the first one to try it out.

[sailawayrb]

I suspect the reason there isn't anything showing the finished building is because when they received the quote for the electrical/plumbing they had to significantly delay or abandon the project...

Plumbing is way more work even with ICF where at least you have the option to hot knife the interior EPS insulation to create the required horizontal and vertical plumbing channels.  However, you don't have that option with this Lego construction method because similar to SIPs, the OSB is the primary structural element and similar to roof trusses, you can't cut them...  And similar to SIPs, if the adhesive fails over time for any reason (usually because of bad product quality control, heat or moisture issues), the structural integrity of the building is completely lost and it becomes a tear down.  So yes, you would have to place horizontal and vertical fir strips to create the required exterior wall electrical/plumbing channels...and steel plate everyplace the electrical/plumbing lines are less than 1.5" from the drywall...  

If you don't have any exterior hose bibs, you could reduce the number of required exterior wall plumbing channels by just bringing the main cold water line up the interior side of wall and into the ceiling cavity to accomplish the required cold/hot water line runs.  Except for kitchen islands and some other exceptions, most State building codes don't allow running cold/hot water lines under a slab...and when you are allowed, they need to be placed in conduit just like under slab electrical lines.  Waste lines are fine under a slab but they need to have chases wherever they pass through concrete (e.g., footings).

If I were building a 400ish SF place, I would consider using steel SIPs.  This would cost way less, go up way faster and be way more structurally sound than this Lego construction method.  And for a place this small, the risk of adhesive failure can be reasonably accepted and steel doesn't rot or warp.  Most SIP manufactures will pre-cut doors/windows and create the electrical/plumbing channels to your spec for little additional cost.  There have been many OSB SIP failures in recent years and I would strongly recommend avoiding that product for any project needing a 20 year or longer life.  Using SIPs for roofs is less risky because they can be removed and replaced if they fail.

Yes, OSB outgassing is a huge issue and another reason to not use anything that contains OSB within the interior of a building.  I imagine the insulation is EPS and that is relatively inert and a much greener product unlike XPS which does outgas and eventually becomes the same R-value as EPS.  I also imagine this Lego wall has a R-value well in excess of R60 which is well beyond the point of insulation diminishing returns in 95% of where construction is accomplished.

[Henry W]

Most State building codes don't allow running cold/hot water lines under a slab...and when you are allowed, they need to be placed in conduit just like under slab electrical lines.  Waste lines are fine under a slab but they need to have chases wherever they pass through concrete (e.g., footings).

Most upstate  N.Y. Counties near Rensselaer county and north always allowed hot/cold water lines under a slab. If running K copper in general the only place sleeving is recommended is where the piping comes through the concrete slab. Direct contact with concrete will erode the copper over time. It's not required but some plumbing contractors do sleeve complete lengths of K copper that are under slabs. There were times that when another length had to be attached  underground code called for the joint to be silver soldered (brazed). When done properly the joint is stronger than the pipe.

Used to sweat, silver solder, braze (or what ever you want to call call the technique) 1-1/2" and 2" water mains all the time back in the late 70's to early 80's near at Lake George, New York and to this day the joints buried 4-6 ft under had no ruptures. I would of heard about it from my Uncle since he was the plumbing contractor that did much of the work there. And he's still there living in one of the condos. My worst critic, yet he was my best teacher.

Most contractors are switching over to plastic and sleeving is recommended where piping comes through the slab.

Most State codes might state that they don't allow hot/cold water under slabs. But, city and county codes override state and federal. Thank goodness we still have a voice in some Cities, Towns and Counties on what we would like. Yes, plumbing contractor meetings in areas are vital. Let your voice be heard. It's best to be heard instead of having politicians come up with worthless ideas. And lots of those ideas mostly benefit them instead of the people.

[sailawayrb]

Yes, there are still even places that don't have any building codes at all, but building codes will for the most part keep you from doing something dumb.  Sort of like Mil Specs.  No one really likes them because they can be a PIA to comply, but you can usually find the names of people who were killed or injured that motivated the creation of these regulations.  I recognize some people will never appreciate that reality and they will feel slighted by any regulations because they see this as a restriction of their freedom.  But I see those people as simply ignorant or self serving.  As George Carlin expressed so well, there are no freedoms or rights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9-R8T1SuG4

I don't think many plumbers use copper anymore except maybe for repairing old copper plumbing systems.  PEX is really the only way to go these days and specifically PEX Type A that allows using ProPEX expansion fittings which are far superior to PEX crimp fittings.  This is how I plumbed our place and I would highly recommend it over copper, PVC and CPVC having done those methods years ago too.  PEX Type A doesn't burst if it freezes multiple times and as long as it isn't exposed to UV, it will likely last forever.  The primary advantage of PEX is that it can be easily routed where needed with minimal or no fittings.  My creek/well water system panel shows an example of PEX using ProPEX expansion fittings:

http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=3702.0

[Henry W]

Been brought up with copper. Personally, I don't like anything else. All this plastic has not been around that long. Give it time. Something will happen.

Ive read someplace that Bacteria grows faster in plastic. One of my concerns with plastic is we don't know what full effects it has on the human body.


Very nice job on the water system. I like it.

[mike90045]

PEX has a design life of ~50 years.   Chlorine in the water reduces that.


https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/jana-report-chlorine-testing-pex-materials.pdf
The extrapolated test lifetime for the PEX material tested based on these conditions is 93 years with a 95% lower confidence limit of 52 years.
   Chlorine, therefore, even at relatively low levels is found to significantly reduce pipe lifetime. A more
detailed examination of the influence of water quality (studying the impact of chlorine level, pH and
ORP) on the performance of materials in potable water applications will be published in detail
elsewhere (6).

[Henry W]

That's it, about 50 years? Oh, I don't know. On a positive note, new installs should be around longer than me.

Getting back to a Lego home:

Rob, after reading over what you wrote, OSB does have a horrible life span. Not a good material to use for people with lung conditions.
So I feel this Lego home is a bust.

Tom, LowGear, Rob and Mike, thanks for your input. What else can we get into?

[sailawayrb]

I think using OSB in wall primary structure or where it can significantly outgas into a building is a bad idea.  However, OSB does utilize wood scraps in a productive way and using it as exterior wall sheathing makes sense.

PEX has a 25 year warranty, a 50 year design life and a 200-300 year potential actual life if not degraded by chlorine or UV.  As such, it is the perfect solution for slab hydronic radiant floor heating.  It has been used extensively in Europe for about 60 years, but it has only been used in the US for about 30 years.  It was only approved for use in California about 10 years ago.  So it will be a while before we will know if a 200-300 year life is actually achievable, but there are many slabs in Europe that are still being heated with PEX that is now at least 60 years old.

I would say that if you have chlorine in your water, you have a much larger health risk issue than by using PEX.  And while people may debate the health benefits/risks of using chlorine versus the risk waterborne disease from not using it, chlorine has been conclusively shown to convert organic material in water in carcinogenetic substances.  So it is better to completely eliminate chlorine from your water and use UV to eliminate the waterborne disease risk.

The study on the effect of human ingestion of plastic has been well underway for at least 40 years now.  There are micro plastic fibers in all water supplies and in all food sources.  It has been estimated that the average person consumes something like the equivalent of a couple plastic credit cards every week.  Like fossil fuel generated global warming and the associated companies that have concealed it for decades because they financially benefit, I suspect the consequences of human plastic ingestion are already well known and will be successfully concealed from the public for a long time by the companies that financially benefit.  As long as there are clueless and ignorant people, these companies will rule to the detriment of public welfare.  Look at how tobacco companies have successfully evolved to vaping and continue to poison and kill many people.  In any event, don't be afraid of PEX because you are already ingesting way more potentially toxic forms of plastic than you will ever get from PEX.

What else to discuss?  How about quantum entanglement...something that keeps me awake many nights...  Or perhaps more germane to this forum, how about helping me build some software that will optimize and kick out all the required design parameters to build PMGs suitable for hydroelectric or wind power at any given site.  I chatted with Bob G about this not too long ago, but haven't found the time to do much about it.

Happy New Year to one and all!

[Tom Reed]

That's it, about 50 years? Oh, I don't know. On a positive note, new installs should be around longer than me.

Getting back to a Lego home:

Rob, after reading over what you wrote, OSB does have a horrible life span. Not a good material to use for people with lung conditions.
So I feel this Lego home is a bust.

Tom, LowGear, Rob and Mike, thanks for your input. What else can we get into?

Henry, I used a local guy to purchase my ICF system and he was very helpful from purchase to finishing. My basement walls ate R40.

[sailawayrb]

If you are interested in green construction, this is good forum when it isn't being overrun by spammers and AHs:

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums.aspx

My wife Gayle frequently tries to help folks there.