Forcing Xantrex inverters to give me clean power

[dubbleUJay]

HELL Bruce, as you know, there's nothing I can say about you misfortune that will make you feel any better, but rest assured in knowing that me/we take stuff for granted way to easy!!

From reading between the lines here on the forum, there's a lot of the regular guys with some serious health problems all over. I've got health issues for about 5 years now, but nowhere near the stuff your having and I thought I was bad and felt sorry for myself in the beginning, until I started looking around.

Anyway, all the best and "hats off" to you with the computer setup you created for yourself. That must be something to see though!

dubbleUJay
PS-Please sent me the document you referred to, I would love to read more about a subject I didn't even know existed until today. You should still have my email address I presume.

[cujet]

I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of flicker and high voltages in my setup. 
-Jedon

Jedon,

I have been struggling with my ST head and Listeroid power for many years now. The 11HZ voltage change caused by the engines combustion event is only addressable by flywheel mass. Either on the engine and/or gen head. There is literally no way to electrically "adjust" this. The flicker will remain.

Your setup begs for the engine to only charge the batteries. Yes, it seems a charger/controller that would work with the PV's and the engine is in order. From an efficiency standpoint, I am not sure this is the greatest, however, the bottom line may be OK.

I guess the simple way would be to use the ST head to power your charger. Rather than converting to a DC generator.

[Jedon]

I/We seem to have at least 4 options:
1. Use a 48V truck alternator instead of the ST-5 to charge the batteries directly. Disadvantage: No 3 stage charging, Advantage: simple(ish), easy, cheap, retain ST-5 for ?
2. Modify the ST-5 to put out ~60V DC into a solar charge controller to charge the batteries. Disadvantage: $ for charge controller, complexity and efficiency issues with converting the ST-55
3. Use one of my 2 inverter/chargers strictly as a charger. Advantage: no $, pretty easy. Disadvantage: lose 5500W of inverting power ( except the well and perhaps a few other non-flicker sensitive things ).
4. Use some other charger like a 48V golf cart charger hooked to the ST-5. Advantage: really simple, Disadvantage: Those chargers aren't cheap.

[mobile_bob]

not sure i agree with your option list

1. where are you going to find a 48volt truck alternator?  12 or 24, but to my knowlege there are no 48 volt units
save for a couple exceedingly specialized units one of which is paired with a special inverter, the other which is set
for 48.0 vdc which will not charge a 48 volt battery.

   of course there is a way around this as outlined in a certain white paper, which btw allows for programmable
3 stage charging and at a higher efficiency than is afforded by any other means you are thinking of.

2. the st head could be modified by simply splitting the coil groups, which would result in ~60vac output at full kwatt capacity
but when rectified the voltage would be 1.414 higher so you would need a purpose built regulator to control the field, which would
be more efficient than feeding the product of rectification through an mx60 or similar.
btw, this is not a bad option from a theoretical standpoint, but as no one has done it yet, we don't know what the result might be.

3. i suppose you could use the inverter chargers, and deal with another layer of conversion and its attendant losses?

4. use of a 48volt golf cart charger plugged into your st5?  my bet is you would take a serious hit in efficiency unless you are prepared
to spend max dollars on a high efficiency charger, getting one with 3 step control, pf correction, and high efficiency is likely going to be
quite expensive,, likely the most expensive option and it will still not rank at the top in efficiency in my opinion.

options 1 and 2 will likely result in higher efficiency at the cost of a more complex system that you will have to build for the most part yourself,
options 3 and 4 will likely result in lower efficiency, with the benefit of being more or less plug and play, but at likely a much higher price
unless you already have the inverter/charger bought and paid for?

in my opinion there is no one right answer, it all depends on various factors, such as how deep are your pockets, how handy are you,
and how much effort to you want to expend...factored against overall cost and what your efficiency expectations are.

bob g

[cujet]

In real world practice, there is no difference between a ST head rectified to achieve DC and the 48V truck alternator (which is just a high voltage AC generator with a diode pack). The voltage regulation is simply varying voltage to the field.

Without getting too complex, I am fairly certain you could "convert" the ST head into a battery charger with good voltage regulation and all. Some simple control electronics and yes a transformer/rectifier would do the trick. I am not convinced that any re-wiring of the ST would get you close enough. But, you never know. Why not vary the field voltage?

To complicate the matter, engine RPM could be used as the voltage regulator, in part or.....

My friend at work has a highly modified GEM electric car with a 3500w Honda generator mounted on the back. He is doing exactly what I suggest you do. Charging the batteries and letting the batteries do the work. Using a heavy duty GEM car charger plugged right in to the Honda 115v outlet. MPG in gas only mode is about 90.


I clearly understand that each time we manipulate power, there is a substantial loss of efficiency. However, it's the overall system performance that really matters. Sure, the optimization of each component is important. But not at the expense of crummy power. What I think is that the overall system performance with the gen charging the batts can also be optimized and therefore result in the performance you are looking for. PMG's and the like alone, are not likely to result in better efficiency. But, running the enigne at higher and lower RPM depending on load is. Much more so than the slight percentage loss of power conversion.

As you can see, I am really liking the idea of a variable speed listeroid, maybe 400-800 RPM. A 400 RPM idle won't consume much fuel and 800RPM will provide a full 4500 watts easy without smoke. I think you can do it with an ST.

[BruceM]

Bob said:

"rectified the voltage would be 1.414 higher"

True for a capacitor only-filter on a transformer-linear supply, which is also very rude, PF wise. 

If an inductor is used as the primary filter (bulky expensive, but can be cobbled with a large surplus transformer), then DC volts=AC volts.

[Jedon]

1. where are you going to find a 48volt truck alternator?

Hey I got the idea from you by reading your white paper!

this is not a bad option from a theoretical standpoint, but as no one has done it yet

I'm not knowledgeable enough to be a guinea pig.

3. i suppose you could use the inverter chargers, and deal with another layer of conversion and its attendant losses?

No more so than any other option using a charger right? I do already have the inverter, I got two Xantrex 5548's used and have them both hooked up, I really only need the 2nd to run the well though for 240V since the house doesn't use all that much power. I could just move wires around in the breaker panel so that it's not used for flicker sensitive items.

One issue with this is that my ST-6 groans if I use just one leg so I would want to modify it to bridge the poles or use a buck transformer.

As you can see, I am really liking the idea of a variable speed listeroid

I like this idea also but it's far more involved than I want to get into right now, I have a lot of other projects to do trying to get the house done.

Another thing to consider is that I have about 300W of hydro capacity that I will install in the next year or two that will probably provide just about all our power when combined with the 780W of PV I already have so the generators will be run less in the long run and thus spending a lot of time and money making them perfect isn't appealing right now, although perhaps after I get other stuff going it would be a fun project.

can be cobbled with a large surplus transformer

Big old transformers seem useful, I start keeping my eye out at swap meets and such.

[WGB]

There is slow but growing acknowledgment that about 3% of the population have serious adverse reactions to EMFs, a larger group are affected but not acutely.  An article by in the Jan. issue of Prevention magazine is co-written by a researcher friend of mine, Dr. Sam Milton (MD), perhaps I can forward that to you if you are interested.  

I have MS and Epilepsy following a chemical injury in a new sick building which had aircraft composites being baked in the same closed space as my office, with the exhaust located less than 10 feet and upwind of the building "fresh air intake. Testing showed profound short and long term memory loss, and the  pattern of cognitive impairment that comes with toxic exposure; still genius level in some areas, while functionally retarded in others. It has not improved my mood or personality.

My epilepsy is aggravated profoundly around electronics.  This after a career in R&D of computers, software and electronics.  I can't use a normal computer, or even have one in the house.  I had to develop my own shielded projector, designed for low EMFs and using a line voltage halogen lamp.  I designed an optically isolated, remoted processor,  "passive matrix" keyboard as matrix strobed keyboards have me floored in minutes. The keyboard project was the most difficult, as it must be right in your lap. I developed an analog fiber link for video, audio and fiber keyboard/trackball (also custom), so the computer can reside in my shop while I'm working at my rear projection workstation.  With this work that took me several years, I have had computer access for the last 7 years or so.  I have vision problems which still make it stressful, but I manage.

I can't be in normal buildings for long at all now that fluorescent lights, computers and wireless systems are everywhere.  I like going out but pay later dearly. I can only drive safely for short trips and with a specially modified diesel car (no electronic injection) with a solar panel in the roof to keep the battery topped off.  Until a new cell tower was put in, I could go sailing on a local pond.

My MS gets "turned on" by very low level magnetic fields, so now all my shop tools are air powered.  

What makes me angry besides for the impact on my life quality, is that it is readily technically solvable; we don't have to give up our technology, just learn to use it more wisely.

More than you wanted to know, but yes, I'm biased.

Best Wishes,
Bruce

It sure didn't seem to harm your mental capacity!

I have Hairy Cell Leukemia.
https://health.google.com/health/ref/Hairy+cell+leukemia
My red blood cells looked like they had a magnetic flux around them!
My Dr told me to stay away from welders, transformers, electric motors, etc.
He gave a pamphlet on the subject of EMI / magnetic flux.
LOL I thought the experts said this was all BS!

[Apogee]

I'm sorry that you have the challenges that you do.  No fun!

So here's a stupid question for you guys:

Have you considered shielding yourself rather than all of the stuff around you?

I'm thinking clothing that perhaps has a foil layer sandwiched between two layers of fabric...  Essentially a faraday cage for the body.  I envision each piece of clothing being grounded together with inconspicuous alligator clips that would eventually connect to a strap or plate on the bottom of the shoes for grounding.

I wonder if it'd work.

Just a thought...

Steve

PS - On a lighter note, you could even make a cone shaped foil hat and there most definitely would be no golfing on rainy days...   

[BruceM]

Ah yes, Steve, the tin hat, I knew that would come up. 

My MS is turned on by power line magnetic fields (h-fields)- they can't be shielded except by massive ferrous materials,  silicon steel (transformer lamination material) or exotic hydrogen anneal nickel alloys like Conetic alloy. (They don't reflect like e-fields, the magnetic flux lines can only be re-directed through the more attractive path of the alloy.)  I have worked with these materials for 20 years, but getting a 60 percent reduction is typically about the best you can expect.  (A simple wrap of silicon steel around a typical induction motor will cut the field in half,)  Distance and better design are more effective. 

Electric (e-fields) are easily reflected by conductive materials, such as aluminum foil, screen,  even very thin layers such as used in Low-E glass or UV films and there are metalized fabrics

Problems with shielding, for say driving by cell towers are that you'd like to be able to see, and microwave wavelengths are so tiny that tiny slits leak too much. I can barely notice a 30 decibel improvement, 60db feels like 50% better. (60db is one millionth)  For some sort of suit, you'd be lucky to get 20 or 30dB, for the price of looking like a freak.  I'd rather suffer in silence and presenting the illusion of normalcy.

Dr Sam Milham visited me recently, a brave researcher and a man truly concerned about the public health situation re: increasing dirty power.  This AM he asked me to talk to one of the other leading researchers, Dr Magdas Havas in Toronto.  I did and was very impressed.  www.magdahavas.com  She is seeing about 35% of people with MS responding amazingly (remission even for chronic progressives) with cleaning up their electrical environment. 

I'm amazed at your doctor, WB.  It is rare to see such advanced thinking in a practicing MD.  Mostly they get any original thoughts beaten out of them by the Med. School/internship hazing process.  The thinking, learning, interested types are rare as hen's teeth, you are lucky to have him. 

I worry about my off grid friends here, and guys doing grid tie inverters, as the researchers in the know show that that this is some of the nastiest power quality for the high frequency stuff that research indicates is be inducing our autoimmune and cancer epidemic.

Military grade power filters can be found surplus, and while a big pain to install, they really do give -100dB reductions.  Both inverter output, and the lead-outs to the PV array and/or wind need to be filtered, lest the PV system becomes a big antenna.  Conducted radiation will radiate via any path, it doesn't care if you label it an input.

Best Wishes,
Bruce

[Apogee]

"For some sort of suit, you'd be lucky to get 20 or 30dB, for the price of looking like a freak.  I'd rather suffer in silence and presenting the illusion of normalcy."

Understood.

Just to be clear, the reason that I mentioned sandwiching foil (or something like that - metal fibers?) between layers of fabric was to make the clothing as normal looking as possible.

The intent here was to find a solution that would help while not letting others know one was wearing anything special.  Bruce, I'm sure if it's affecting you in the way that you describe, there are others suffering the effects that would also benefit.  And I'm also guessing that they too, would prefer a solution that others don't know they are wearing...

Bummer that it's so tough to shield from.

I've started a thread regarding building a system from scratch to minimize EMF noise.  I would love learn more.

I just couldn't resist the tin hat part.  I was very serious regarding the clothing idea.  I hope you didn't take offense!

Regards,

Steve

[dubbleUJay]

I suppose a very big reality is that most people don't know about it! They are feeling crappy and sick and don't know why
Getting treatment for all types of other causes.

[BruceM]

Steve, Heck no, I knew you were being helpful, it's just that after living with this for 20 years the idea of the special suit (which I jokingly call the "tin hat" solution) is a very common suggestion.  Plus "tin hat" has a psycho bent that makes it more entertaining.  I do have a sense of humor, still. Thanks for being the nice guy you are.

[mbryner]

Cool thread!  How did I miss this?!   Same questions I've had, too, and was thinking about starting a thread here about it.

Jedon, do you have solar panels with a charge controller?   If so, which charge controller?   What about this, step down the AC voltage a little with a surplus transformer from e-bay, through a high capacity bridge rectifier and capacitor filter, then into the same charge controller as your PV panels.   A good MPPT charge controller works with varying voltage and current, so the dirty power from the Lister shouldn't matter.   You don't run the Lister unless the solar panels aren't keeping up (rain, snow, above average use, etc.), so you won't overload the charge controller.   Then you get clean power from the inverters no-matter-what, and it acts like a giant UPS.   Before you guys rip me to shreds, see more details below.

You essentially have the same setup I have, except my house is not built yet.  So even though my power system is installed, it doesn't have much of a load yet.   My setup:

2 Outback 3600W inverters stacked for 120/240 volt for house and well.  
16 x L16 batteries @ 48 V just like you.  
Outback MX80 charge controller charging the batteries from a 3000+ watt array of solar panels.  
6/1 listeroid connected to a ST 7.5 which is connected to the charging/AC in circuit on the inverters,  one of the out-of-phase 120 V legs going into each inverter.  

When the 'roid is running, the inverter function is killed and the inverters charge the batteries.   The inverters then just function like a pass-through for the power.    When running on Lister power, anytime I plug in a fluorescent light, it flickers like crazy.   Anything else is not a problem.   But I don't want to get rid of fluorescent lights.   How else do you light a shop?!   (Yes, I'm a doctor, but I'm not going to get into the EMF discussion yet.)

It would seem, the better way to do it is to let the inverters invert only.  But I don't want to lose the 120 V output of the 'roid, so exchanging the ST head for an alternator is not an option.   Besides you still have to get it up to charging voltage which is greater than 48 VDC (like mentioned by Mobile_Bob).    I still want a few outlets to be able to be power-fed from the 6/1 directly.    My idea is to set the ST head for 120 V only (not split 240), then route its output in 2 directions.   First, to a power outlet on the wall next to it for emergency power (w/ appropriate breakers, etc. of course).  Second, to the step down transformer --> bridge rectifier --> capacitor filter --> charge controller.   Probably needs back-feed prevention back to the ST head, correct?   Breakers where?  Use automatic transfer switch to separate the PV side from ST head side of circuit?   Capacitor size?  I'd take any help!  ***hint, hint***   I discussed it with our installer, Alternative Power & Machine, in Grants Pass, OR.   He thought it would work fine, but we haven't got into the details.   Seems pretty easy and not very expensive option.

Marcus

[BruceM]

It may be tough to find, but some electronic ballasts actually do voltage regulation on the tube drive.  That would solve your problem, though as I said, it's going to be a fishing trip. 

The rest of the plan sounds good except for a high current linear supply you will have better PF by far with an inductor as your primary filter.  I've had good luck using large toroidal transformers as inductors, but E core transformers will work too, if you go a bit larger.  Look for at least double the rated current of your proposed filtered DC amps, use a secondary if you must, double in series if you need more filtering. Capacitance after the inductor won't affect the PF much, in your case you'll not need any.  A henry is a wonderful thing, and substantial.