Cogenerators and grid tie?

[Number21]

80000 Kwh would be at least a $2500 bill here... every month? WOW!
With that sort of money on the line, I'd certainly be bending a few rules to offset the consumption by generating my own power!

Do you have or is it normal/ customary/ usual to have inspections done at residences or businesses by the power authurities? I'm just trying to get a realistic feel for what your chances of getting done for having your own DIY power offset actually are?

Fortunately I'm only paying 11 cents/KWH. That's my struggle with making the math work, the damn power company sells it too cheap!  I don't think they ever do any kind of surprise inspection unless your meter catches you doing something really crazy. They do want an inspection up front before they will give you a bidirectional meter. That might be a problem for me. They offer a plan in place of net metering where they pay you 39c/kwh (Almost 4 times what they sell power for!) for your solar power, but I would guess if you get caught selling diesel power it won't be pretty. At that rate I could just about run pump diesel!

I may have found another loop hole though. One of my buildings is a long unused 100 year old, 100 foot tall grain elevator. State law says permits and inspections are not required for electrical work in an "agricultural building". You can't get much more agricultural than that! I'm going to run some new power lines over to this building anyway from my shop 100' away where we use most of the power.

[LowGear]

When you want to convert it, message me and I'll tell you how to do it without getting carried away with all the useless and idiotic hype people on veg forums go on with.
Don't tell anyone how you are doing it though.

Resistance in not completely futile but when you join a collective there are some basic understandings.  One of the important ones is that if someone gets hurt and you've been, let's say, too creative, negligent or shown a disregard for the safety of others there will be consequences. 

Casey

[Number21]

Meters.  standard programming = any power through them, is counted on your bill.   Several folks in the solar community "jumped the gun" and activated their system before the electric company re-programmed/swapped their meter, and their generated power fed into the grid, was counted as "consumed" and they were billed.....

Ain't that special !

I would bet they do that on purpose to stop unapproved net metering. With that said, does anybody know what the consequences are to simply do it anyway? I'm always afraid my meter will tattle on me, but so what? I'm a big boy, I do what I want. If I get charged a few cents for a little accidental overflow I'm OK with that. What are they going to do besides send me a nasty letter and tell me to stop it?

Has anybody ever been "caught"? Are they gonna shut off my power and send out the swat team?

[glort]

Has anybody ever been "caught"? Are they gonna shut off my power and send out the swat team?

Well now you have asked, the inevitable unsubstanitated replies will not doubt be dire and and scary as the respondents minds can drum up!
In fact a rouge seal team will probably launch a pre dawn raid on your premises taking you and your family into custody and burning every building on your property in a fire fight with your errant generator. You'll then be thrown in a a mexican, thai and combined Russian prison for their fear factor and sentenced to 150 years hard labour.
And that's just the first 5 years, after that things will get bad!

The problem with trying to sort fact from fiction on forums, any forum, is you always get people distorting truth and fact with their own morality or take on how things are even if only in their own minds.  Even if something has never occoured in recorded history, you'll still get people trying to influance others to their personal views with comments like " I wouldn't take the risk" other inevitable gloom and doom scenarios to impart their opinion rather than relay fact and reality.

I think as soon as you go outside the moral high ground road you are on your own because few people want to risk being singled out or going against the protection of the group and saying something others may take issues with. 

One thing that comes to mind with your question is,  Are the meters in your area actualy working as smart meters?
Here in oz they replaced them all in one state and where I am any old meters are replaced with smart ones but the smart features aren't actually turned on. From looking at the energy companies web sites, I'm not even sure that they all have the infrastructure on their side to be able to use them fully as smart meters.  Some people have time of use plans but other than that and them still having to be manually read, they do anything other than work like a dumb meter. The readers still come round and just this week the bill arrived with a whole pamphlet on the importance of having your meter safely accessible by the meter reader. Clearly they don't like you chaining Fido up underneath it!  I got sick to death on the mongerals leaving my box open for the rain and weather to get into so have now put a piece of chain on the lid so it can be fully opened but not enough to fold up and stay open on it's own.  The sign I put there, " PLease close the Lid" was not effective but the chain sure is.  Bet it's a pain in the arse standing there holding it open with one hand but, bad luck. Was too much to close it after opening it so now they can put up with holding it open so it automaticaly closes.

I don't know how they go with back feeding metering wise but here the smart meters don't have the ability to dob you in for anything here as yet. Perhaps yours is the same??  That maybe something you can definately find out about one way or the other.

What machines/ loads do you run? Are they something that stays on for long periods or are switched on and off frequently?

[Number21]

My meter is pretty smart, I can get an hourly kilowatt usage graph on their website. I know I've read about people that steal power somehow getting caught with smart meters, I can't remember how, but they're definitely watching. (Not that I want to steal power!) We don't have meter readers anymore, I believe it reads through the old pager network.

The majority of our loads are lights and motors this time of year. (Fans, A/C, compressed air) I have two tenants who use my power through a submeter also. Their leases are carefully crafted to allow me to send them power from whatever source I choose, and they get billed at the standard utility rate regardless of the source.  Looking at the graph from the power company, the usage never drops below 2.5KW, but I still need some sort of automatic disconnect should our usage drop for some reason or the grid go down. (Very rare around here)

[Number21]

What is this information I just found on the EPA's website? (I'm in Oregon)

http://www.epa.gov/chp/policies/policies/ororegoninterconnectionstandards.html

CHP Eligibility Requirements   Both fossil-fueled and renewably-fueled CHP systems are eligible for standardized interconnection.

I think my utility did not understand me correctly when I asked about this. Now I have to do some more research, too tired now...

Can vegetable oil be considered "biomass"?

[mike90045]

Has anybody ever been "caught"? Are they gonna shut off my power and send out the swat team?

You wish !   Demographics.   demographics will do you in, smart meter, plain meter.  When the billing computers see your usage deviate from your own history and the neighborhood norm, you become the tall nail.

If usage goes down, you must be stealing and you get a meter inspection/recalibration.  That team looks for magnets, extra wires, thumping generators, new solar arrays.  Depending on local policy, the usual is you get a notice, a stern warning, or a disconnect requireing a fee and  deposit to reconnect.  The utility has all the "power" and law on it's side (along with a staff of lawyers).

If your usage goes high, it must be a "Pot Grow" and that gets you the swat raid.
Sometimes just visiting a garden center gets you a swat team
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2013/03/29/kansas-couple-indoor-gardening-prompted-pot-raid/

[Number21]

Well, I think there was a serious mis-communication between me and the power company. When I said "diesel engine" they assumed "diesel fuel". When they said "biomass", I assumed grass.

We were both wrong!

Apparently both "waste" sources, and renewable energy crops (IE veggie oil) are eligible for net metering. I might just get that big ass generator of my dreams!  

Even better, kilowatt production is annual, not monthly, so I can turn back the meter from August, in December when I actually need the heat!

[glort]

Wow, someone got some uncommon sense and decided to to something worthwhile for a change! where is this Utopia you of which you speak??   
The annual ability is a real stroke of luck and dare I say it, forethought by the power company for things other than greed.

After reading this thread the other day I got to thinking about my own setup and thought I'd re check the official position. Limited to solar and Microhydro only. I'll bet the amount of micro Hydro plants worth a Kw could be counted on fingers and toes in this country!
I can't see them doing anything like that here. We get all the greean speak Ra Ra but when it comes down to it, it's profits first before anything else and god forbid they lose a dollar without making up 3 on a back end some where.


You could get out of this really Cheap.
Your Big arse generetor could be a Diesel car engine, say 10Kw Induction motor, solar inverter or 2 and you're there.

The car engine won't need a  govenor because the inverter has a pretty wide voltage range. Mine is 90 V to 600V for a 240V output. In reality it matches whatever the line voltage is at the time down to 190 I think it is.  In  it's hard to get Caps over 450V to excite the Induction motor windings  so I set the speed on the genny to 350V to allow for any fluctuations.  The inverter will impose a constant load when its working  so I set the engine going and re ajust when the inverter kicks in and it will stay there all day.  Of course you have all the power conditioning and disconnect features  you need because these things are meant and certified for grid connection.
A water cooled car engine will make the heat component that much easier as well.  If you got an engine that you could get a watercooled marine manifold for, you could pick up a few extra KW of heat there if you wanted.

Do you use heating, electrical or otherwise in the premises during winter?  I play with a lot of Used oil ( any oil) burners and some of these could heat a large area and further offset your expenses in heating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9YtPp_jV1c&list=UUEfdKGemqGDvpn2hSuJl2Nw&index=5                 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS47JZl--Qs&index=11&list=UUEfdKGemqGDvpn2hSuJl2Nw
Currently I'm up to something pushing out 300Kw but I'm in the middle of a build of one I believe will see 500Kw+.  That would heat a very large area.

Beauty of stationary engines though is if you want to make something up for them, you can always allow plenty of room to do it rather than having to work in the confines of an underbonnet area.

[Number21]

It seems to be state law rather than power company rules, so don't give them too much credit.  With that said shouldn't I be able to use most any type of generator to grid tie directly without an inverter if I had the proper switch gear? It seems like all I would really need is some kind of safety device that would disconnect my generator in the event the grid goes down. Do they make some kind of automatic transfer switch that would do that? Would basically be the opposite of a normal automatic transfer switch. If I can really net meter with a generator I probably want at least 20kw, which would cost way too much in inverters.

I can use a lot of heat but the real limiting factor is how much oil can I get my hands on? I could easily burn 200 gallons just making electricity. And then I want to run my truck on the stuff too. I'm willing to pay up to $1/gallon for it but I'm not willing to go dumpster diving.

[glort]

With that said shouldn't I be able to use most any type of generator to grid tie directly without an inverter if I had the proper switch gear?

Well the " Proper " switch gear would be the thing.
In Proper you'd need something that would phase match when you threw the switch otherwise there is going to be magic smoke and sparks coming out of ship everywhere.

Your 20KW/ Fuel supply is something I'd look at. going on gut feeling alone, I'm not too sure how worthwhile your buck a gal fuel return is going to be in power although it may be worthwhile in heat.  Doing a real rough calc in my head, You are going to be using about 2 gal and hour of fuel @ 20KW and at the rate you are buying power, the only benifit would be the heat. And thats on straight out fuel costs not counting maintenece, setup,  etc.
I think you'd pretty much have to be running free fuel to come near making the exercise worthwhile.

If free fuel were limited, You'd probably be better off with a smaller genny that you could run to the limit of your fuel supply for the lower purchase costs.

The first thing in the WVO game is find your oil supply. Nothing else matters if you can't do that.
There seem to be plenty of people that have run used engine oil which I would imagine would be a lot easier to get hold of than Veg.  You'd have to look into that and make your own assesment on the risks if indeed any when running it.  With any used oil I would ( and do) run water injection with it.  You don't need anything elaborate despite what everyone ( especially makers of WI systems) will tell you, just a constant steady drip into the manifold when the thing was running would do it.  Only other thing is to filter your oil properly. Not hard at all to do and if you set up a system properly, requires next to no hands on time either.

As for the WI, I have often thought a " Humidity saturation system" would work well. I envisage something like a length of 3-4" Pipe in a resivour of water that the air was drawn through so it was constantly bubbling the intake air through the water.
If the water was drained each week ( and would of course need to be topped up very regularly/ automatically) it would also likley aid in giving the engine very clean air. I think this system would give lots of water into the engine while still being basicaly fool proof in not drowning the engine.

Can you not readily get solar inverters there used? They are not hard to get here or all that expensive. I would think they would be cheap and plentiful in the states.

[Number21]

Can you not readily get solar inverters there used? They are not hard to get here or all that expensive. I would think they would be cheap and plentiful in the states.

Not sure what your idea of cheap is. I've seen used ones, but they still seem to be $500-1000/kilowatt. I've seen generator synchronizers that match the speed of the generator to the speed of the grid for less than $200. If I could use a $200 automatic transfer switch as a safety shut down, that would be REALLY cheap! Or there is the possibility of simply connecting a large induction motor to the grid. I just need something approved to make the utility happy.

As for final power cost, it's hard to say, that's why I call it an experiment, but consider this: (Utility charges 11 cents/KWH)
I can probably get oil for $1/gallon. I can probably make 10 kilowatts per gallon. That's 10 cents/kilowatt. (Plus a lot of free heat)
I might be able to get oil for $0.75/gallon, and, I've seen quotes as high as 15 kilowatts from a gallon of WVO. That's only 5 cents/kilowatt!
The other thing is, the bigger the generator, the more efficient it is. A modern 500kw generator might get that 15 kilowatts per gallon number but an old listeroid is probably closer to ten. I suppose part of the game for me is seeing just how many kilowatts I can squeeze from a gallon of oil.   Of course, I can't afford a new 500kw generator.

I'll probably use some WMO but only my own, so that won't be a lot. There seem to be a lot of people looking for it around here to use in heaters, and I don't want to worry about what happens if I spill a hundred gallons of WMO. There are a lot more rules and regulations involving WMO. Just transporting it on the highway can involve a lot of red tape. (I think it's considered a hazardous substance)

[ToddT]

I've thought along the same lines, somewhat. Most of the 335,000 miles on my 2002 Ford 7.3 Powerstroke were running on WVO. I run my company off the grid using a 6kw generator usually running on WVO as well. My plan was to use my 8kw Changfa style (with a SERIOUS soundproofing doghouse!) during the winter months to provide power plus heat. Run it lots during the cold season when I don't need much electricity so that I build up a big fat kwh credit with the utility.

In my state (Arkansas) we get a full credit for every kwh we produce including using biomass (veg oil). Not avoided cost. But, I have a strong feeling my utility will only sign off on UL approved hardware. So, why not have some solar and get it hooked up with "approved" hardware. Then, what's the difference as far as they are concerned if I add more PV panels or a generator so long as it goes into an inverter/controller to produce grid-compatible power? Regarding net-metering, when I checked into it a few years ago, they knew it could be done but no one had a clue as to what it would take as for hardware.

I do have the veg oil supply and more than anything, I want to see how energy independent I can become. Someday... a gasifier. Been working with them for six years. Not a question of "if" but just a matter of working out the details. Lots and lots of details.

[glort]

Not sure what your idea of cheap is. I've seen used ones, but they still seem to be $500-1000/kilowatt.

OH boy! That sure ain't my idea of cheap at all!
I sold 2x 2 Kw Brand new units I had surplus to my needs earlier this year for $250 apiece. I made money on them for what I got them for.  $500 a KW is way more than you'd pay for them here.  Must be about the 2nd thing I have ever found cheaper here than in the states,. Everything else seems the complete opposite!

I've seen generator synchronizers that match the speed of the generator to the speed of the grid for less than $200. If I could use a $200 automatic transfer switch as a safety shut down, that would be REALLY cheap! Or there is the possibility of simply connecting a large induction motor to the grid. I just need something approved to make the utility happy.

Yes, I was loathe to suggest direct connection with an induction motor. Too many people will argue the million to one and higher odds chances of the thing continueing to generate IF the grid goes down.    Having to have the setup inspected and certified is an issue though. Maybe looking into the syncronisers would be worth while -IF- that will get you past inspection.

As for final power cost, it's hard to say, that's why I call it an experiment, but consider this: (Utility charges 11 cents/KWH)
I can probably get oil for $1/gallon. I can probably make 10 kilowatts per gallon. That's 10 cents/kilowatt. (Plus a lot of free heat)
I might be able to get oil for $0.75/gallon, and, I've seen quotes as high as 15 kilowatts from a gallon of WVO. That's only 5 cents/kilowatt!
The other thing is, the bigger the generator, the more efficient it is. A modern 500kw generator might get that 15 kilowatts per gallon number but an old listeroid is probably closer to ten. I suppose part of the game for me is seeing just how many kilowatts I can squeeze from a gallon of oil.   Of course, I can't afford a new 500kw generator.    

Going by  my less that brilliant calculations, I'd suggest 15Kw a gallon would be VERY optomistic.  Even 10 might be pushing it on WVO. Diesel probably ok but WVO is questionable to me.  I think you'd want to have very efficent equipment.
I think it's here I have seen it said basicaly go for the heat and take the power as a bonus.
In this case if you wanted the heat, I'd just set up a Waste oil burner.  Certainly going to be incomprably cheaper than the purchase of a generator which really the heat is the only benifit of.  At a 1c a KWH, return, the thing will never payitself back in it's lifetime on power.  Given you could knock out a wvo Burner for about $100 do produce any amount of heat you wanted and have no setup or regulations, it may be a better option...... If the heat is valueable enough to you.

I was palying with a burner of mine today and measured over 350KW output. That's going to heat a very big space with no problems. 

I'll probably use some WMO but only my own, so that won't be a lot. There seem to be a lot of people looking for it around here to use in heaters, and I don't want to worry about what happens if I spill a hundred gallons of WMO. There are a lot more rules and regulations involving WMO. Just transporting it on the highway can involve a lot of red tape. (I think it's considered a hazardous substance)

No, I wouldn't want to spill 100 Gallons of WMO either!  It's putrid, stinking, staining, hard to clean up filth. Nothing like the ease of dealing with a veg oil spill. Not that I'd ever want or have had to clean up 100 gallons of that either!
I'd defiantely get a reliable supply of fuel nailed down before I did anything and also try to get it at a contracted price. It's been known to follow Diesel prices  so your purchase cost could very easily double almost over night. It has before!

[glort]

But, I have a strong feeling my utility will only sign off on UL approved hardware. So, why not have some solar and get it hooked up with "approved" hardware. Then, what's the difference as far as they are concerned if I add more PV panels or a generator so long as it goes into an inverter/controller to produce grid-compatible power?

That's exactly what my mate has done. He produces a LOT more than the 2KW his approved and subsidised solar array gives him. The generator feeds back through the same meter even at night but after 2 years they haven't quiried him on it yet nor the amount of power he produces.

I do have the veg oil supply and more than anything, I want to see how energy independent I can become.

I have the same interest but less comitment living in the suburbs.
I can get all the oil I want dumpster diving but this year I have got onto a source where I get IBC's of WVO loaded into my trailer and I take back the empty when I pick the next one up. It's DAMNED good oil too! My truck has never run better than on this stuff.

I have a few gennys for power, a WVO powered water and hydronic heater and the next thing I'm working on is a WVO fired aircon.  I'm going to use one of my little diesels to drive a car air con unit ( or 2) to cool the house this summer.
Can't find any info on anyone doing this on the net so maybe I'll be a pioneer in this regard.  Pretty basic stuff, just extend the hoses mainly and charge the thing to suit.  The soundproofed shed for the engine will be a must however.